Hi all, I have purchased the bose L1 model II and tonematch, I have 2 bins. I am a solo vocalist, tracks going into channel 4/5 no problems sound great. I have done 2 gigs with this kit but I'm still not happy with the overall sound as I am having problems with my vocals, I cannot seem to get the warm sound that i used to have with my mackie gear. I use a beyerdynamic tgx80 and have tried all presets and still seem to be very nasal sounding. (in the past i have always had to notch out by a few dbs between say 2 and 4kz) I also have AKG C900 and AKG D5, tried them as well but everything just seems too toppy, again no warmth in the vocals at all. Any help with presets for these mics would be great.
Also what effects do you all seem to use with vocals and what percentage and mix levels
All help greatly appreciated, love the system just need to get this sorted.
Laney.

Hi laney,

Thank you for joining the Message Board.

Just taking a little time to digest your post...

In the meantime here are a couple of questions.

• How do the vocals sound without the backing tracks?
  
  
• The Presets are designed for use with close mic'ing technique (basically singing with your lips just barely brushing the windscreen). Are you singing that close? If not, please try it and let us know what you hear.
  
  
• Do you have your two B1s stacked or side-by-side touching? Either is fine. Just checking that you are doing one or the other.
  
  If you have them on either side of the Model II Power Stand, try laying one on its side, and putting the second B1 on top of it.
  
  
• When you insert the B1 cables (blue) did you turn ¼ turn to the right and feel the connector CLICK?
  

More thoughts:

I did some reading about your AKG C9000 microphone

Have you tried it with and without the Presence Adapter?

Reading the review linked above, it sounds like you want to stay close and on-axis (sing straight into it) with this microphone to get the best out of it.

I would try it with the standard Preset for Vocal Microphones:

Category: Vocal Mics
Preset: Handheld Mics

FWIW, I have met a couple of singers who preferred their vocal mics with no Preset. They said the preset made them sound too "bright," compared with the sound to which they had become accustomed. I turned the Preset off and they were happy.

I have also played around with the Parametric found that a slight bump in the 350-450 Hz range brought out the "punch" [sic] another singer was looking for. It was a matter of adding 3 dB to a narrow (0.5 octave) in this range and moving the center up and down until they said "there" and I stopped. I adjusted the width and amount to taste.

Play around a bit - YMMV.

many thanks for your input, re the AKG's I've played around with them and basically have put them to the back of the list as I prefer the beyerdynamic TGX 80, I did a little playing around yesterday with this mic and got it sounding a lot better, however this was only in the home and not at a gig so obviously the master power level was a lot lower (neighbours etc etc) I am out gigging Fri/Sat/Sun so will get the chance to put some power into it and report back later.

I also read somewhere on here that a duo had a tin can sound, eventually Andy from bose saw them live and sorted out there sound, he posted what he did, I tried this and yes it is what seemed to make a difference. I am also trying the effects that he suggested, again seem ok in the house but won't know until this weekend.
I just seem for some reason hesitant with the reverb as this really seems to colour the vocals.

Can you suggest any effect settings for gigs probably 100 - 150 people, amounts and mix settings please.

I also have a couple of mates using this system, one has been on it for a couple of years and the other bought his just after me, both of them say they feel more comfortable with it set to one side of them, slightly back so they can still hear what is coming out because if they do need to up the master they don't get any feedback probs....your thoughts on this also please

tks
Laney

Hi everyone,

Laney's post above sent me searching for the post from Andy-at-Bose UK with the suggestions for fixing the tin can sound.

Found it.

... Sounds like a Tin Can ...

quote:

Originally posted by Andy-at-Bose UK:
Hi ST,

Here's what I did for Chris and Tony.

First off we looked at the settings for their backing tracks. These were coming from a minidisc with normalised levels on the DJ High Volume Music Playback ToneMatch setting. The normalising of the tracks to digital zero meant that the signals from the minidisc were already hot and causing the input LED on the T1 to flash amber freqently. The guys had also dialled up a 5db+ on each of the zEQ bands (10db on the high setting).

I cut these right back with just a couple of DB boost on the bass and high frequencies and lowered the input trim to give a much more suitable level. I then increased the channel volume and master volume to compensate. This sorted the backing tracks out.

It was a similar problem with the vocal settings. Both Chris and Tony use SM58s (Betas I think) and they had a lot of zEQ boost on the mic channels. Again I cut this right back and also adjusted (cut) the mid range for each performer by listening to how each sounded, especially when singing a harder track.

This resulted in a better blend of their two voices. Because the guys like to be LOUD I cut a bit of the 2-4khz zone on the channel parametrics to help sweeten the sound and prevent feedback. This meant that the guys could walk around using their radio mics at gig volumes in front of the L1s without any feedback issues.

Lastly, I helped them with their vocal effects choice and I reckon it was this that was primarily causing the 'tin can' sound. They had far too much reverb on their vocals and it was overly bright.

It took a lot of the reverb off and added a subtle amount of delay (around 228ms on the analogue delay setting with a low amount of feedback and about 15% mix). This gave them the effect they wanted without the reverb tails muddying the vocal and backing sound. I believe the guys came away from this learning that 'less is more' when it comes to effects.

Finally, we cranked up the master volume good and hard to simulate potential gig volumes. Speech was impossible at this volume and shouting was hard too, so they should have enough power in reserve for most gigs!

They are a good couple of guys, and I recommend anyone in the Leeds/Bradford area to check them out.

Hi again Laney,

quote:

Originally posted by laney:
many thanks for your input, re the AKG's I've played around with them and basically have put them to the back of the list as I prefer the beyerdynamic TGX 80, I did a little playing around yesterday with this mic and got it sounding a lot better, however this was only in the home and not at a gig so obviously the master power level was a lot lower (neighbours etc etc) I am out gigging Fri/Sat/Sun so will get the chance to put some power into it and report back later.

Yes, we humans perceive sound differently at lower sound levels than higher ones. You can read a bit about that in Equal Loudness contours. Reading this won't change what you hear but it might give you a way to think about it.

quote:

I also read somewhere on here that a duo had a tin can sound, eventually Andy from bose saw them live and sorted out there sound, he posted what he did, I tried this and yes it is what seemed to make a difference. I am also trying the effects that he suggested, again seem ok in the house but won't know until this weekend.

That was a great post from Andy, so I copied above for everyone to read.

quote:

I just seem for some reason hesitant with the reverb as this really seems to colour the vocals.

Yes, and reverb can contribute to a hollow ringy sort sound.

quote:

Can you suggest any effect settings for gigs probably 100 - 150 people, amounts and mix settings please.

In a room this size (100-150) people I don't use reverb. There is usually enough natural reverberation in the room. With the L1® there is nothing between you and the room. So if there is reverb in the room you can hear it.

quote:

I also have a couple of mates using this system, one has been on it for a couple of years and the other bought his just after me, both of them say they feel more comfortable with it set to one side of them, slightly back so they can still hear what is coming out because if they do need to up the master they don't get any feedback probs....your thoughts on this also please.

tks
Laney

My personal preference is to play directly in front of my Model II, especially if the stage is more than six feet deep. There is nothing scientific about that distance; just that if I have the depth then I can get in front of the L1® or move a bit to either side depending on how I want to hear/monitor myself. That is: I can manage my monitor mix (when not singing) by moving around on stage.

On a shallow stage then yes, I will end up just slightly in front of it, and a foot or two off to the side. With the Model II and its smooth dispersion off to the sides it sounds fine too. No reason not to do that.

For me, this is one of the greatest benefits of the Model II - the greater flexibility you get with respect to where you place it on stage, or as I tend to think of it... the greater flexibility I have with respect to setting up around it.

Now back to you... Moving the B1s
Have you tried moving the B1s? Assuming that you have them stacked, try moving them (together) a few feet in any direction. Sometimes this can make a huge difference. It depends on the acoustics in your room.

In my rehearsal space there is a spot about three feet out from a wall that basically kills all the warmth in my Model II. When I first set up the unit there I thought there was something wrong. I had a Classic set up flat against the wall about eight feet away. It sounded great. I did all kinds of diagnostics and tweaking of the settings. All to little benefit. I eventually thought to swap the positions of the units . With some experimentation I came to understand that it was not the difference between the Classic and Model II that I was hearing. It was actually the difference resulting from the placement of the B1s in the room.

Laney

Did you try using the Beyer mic and a flat input on channels 1-3? You mentioned being happy with the mic on ch4-5. The TGX80 has a whole ton of low end when you eat the mic. Are you using it close or further away? A lot of our mic presets have a defininte low end rolloff, so voices sound more natural. I know some singers prefer something other than this. After all, the instrument is really "amplified voice" and, like electric guitar, this is not the same as "normal voice, amplified". The latter is actually the DNA of the L1, in how the vocal-mic presets are configured. If you want something else, you have to make your own brew. Fortunately, you can probably do pretty much anything you want, given the other presets for other instruments available and given the exceptional capability of the combined ZEQ and the parametric EQ.

In pursuit of Cliff's point

quote:

After all, the instrument is really "amplified voice" and, like electric guitar, this is not the same as "normal voice, amplified". The latter is actually the DNA of the L1, in how the vocal-mic presets are configured.

Please see:

The same... but different - or more than the same but louder...

Thanks.

Hi all, thanks for all the advice...

Heres an update, just done three gigs fri/sat/sun.
I played about more with eq and deq and got the vocals sounding better. Still not to my ears what i was expecting but again i think this is because i've had years and years of listening to myself without a monitor and mixed my sound from behind my cabs.

Fri and Sat went OK

last night Sunday I was in a biggish club This club has its own gear installed and they say just take mic and minidisc, well you guessed it I thought not doing that so took in the L1 and just 1 B1, straight away I got a few peculiar looks, compere came on and said you can use our gear it's a lot bigger than whatever that is that you are setting up, he also said we get quite a few acts coming in here with their own gear and it sounds dreadful when we've got, dynacord desk, minidisc players, 2 x 15 tops and 2 x 18 subs. Anyway to cut a long story short compere came on using their gear, sounded dreadful dull and lifeless and muddy. He introduced me and straight away what a difference in sound, I could see people around the room looking and pointing, here is me panicking slightly as not yet in my comfort zone with L1. At the end of the 1st spot when he went back on stage he started saying to the audience have you seen hi PA, he isn't coming through our speakers he's just using this little pole he then said "I want one". During the interval people were saying to me god that sounds fabulous, best sound we've had in here for ages. The club committee came talking to me and they also said what a sound totally blows away our club system and that when they come to replace theirs they think that the L1 is the way to go and so this went on all night.

Obviously this put me on a high, this was what i had bought the L1 for and to get compliments was fantastic....one parting comment from one of the club committee was "you were magnificent tonight, you've got the whole club talking.

As per the vocals, I asked the compere what they sounded like as i was a little hesitant on the top end, he said i wouldn't change a thing, there was some top but it was a very pleasant sound.

I've still got a long way to go to be totally comfortable with everything but I think i'm on my way...

Thanks to all


Laney

Laney, I was thinking you are just getting used to really hearing yourself for the first time. It is always shocking when we hear what we really sound like through any sort of amplification. My guitar, fo instance sounds way too bright to me right up by the tower, but move 10 feet in any direction it sounds warm and cozy as can be. You probably sound great out there. I made the same mistake and turned my bass up to the point it sounded nice and warm to me, but it was muddy out there. Go figure.
Peace
Chad

quote:

Originally posted by laney:
Hi all, I have purchased the bose L1 model II and tonematch, I have 2 bins. I am a solo vocalist, tracks going into channel 4/5 no problems sound great. I have done 2 gigs with this kit but I'm still not happy with the overall sound as I am having problems with my vocals, I cannot seem to get the warm sound that i used to have with my mackie gear. I use a beyerdynamic tgx80 and have tried all presets and still seem to be very nasal sounding. (in the past i have always had to notch out by a few dbs between say 2 and 4kz) I also have AKG C900 and AKG D5, tried them as well but everything just seems too toppy, again no warmth in the vocals at all. Any help with presets for these mics would be great.
Also what effects do you all seem to use with vocals and what percentage and mix levels
All help greatly appreciated, love the system just need to get this sorted.
Laney.

Greetings, Laney...I suggest you get thee to a music store where you can try different mics hooked up to an L1. What worked with your previous system simply may not sound good with the Bose. I had a similar experience with the conventional system, through which I was very happy singing through a Shure beta 87. With the L1, the Shure is now for sale! I currently use a Sennheiser e935 (with Sennheiser 865 preset) and the sonic difference is astounding! Of course, your voice may shine with a different mic, so you really would benefit greatly from auditioning several different mics at a store that sells the L1. Good luck to you!
voiceman

Agree with Chad and Voiceman. Not being a jerk, but HOW did you know what you sounded like with the previous Mackie equipment? I never could get a handle on it with monitors and mains and I used Mackie too.

Also, one thing I do prior to performing (time and other factors permitting) is play my CD through an iPod and go listen in the audience area. Granted, it's not live but if I use one of the guitar and vocal only recordings I can come close. Good luck.