Hello Oldghm


I have a question for ya. I am a lead singer ( about 37 years ). I have done a lot of band work in the past but now I am enjoying Solo work.
My range is roughly baritone to tenor. It is very important to me to have a Full sounding vocal delivery. What I mean by that is good solid lows amd low mids to provide a firm, full and warm foundation for the mids and highs that need to be there to cut thru the mix and give prescence.
I have been browsing this forum about 3 to 4 weeks and I have read many of your posts. I notice that you have been searching for the same thing.
I bought an L1 (used)with bass module (B1) one week ago after hearing a new one at Guitar Center. My used one has the 1.0 presets. I KNOW I need to upgrade, I can really hear the difference between mine and the one at Guitar Center with the 2.0 presets.

My guitar sounds just incredible thru the Bose even with the 1.0 presets. My vocal needs some real work though. I need a fatter fuller sound ( vocally ) because nowadays ( since going Solo ) there is just my voice and guitar. I am not hearing enough Lows and Low mids ( vocally ) and I run the risk of blowing out my voice trying to compensate for that with my throat.

OK , so hear is my question. ( Oh ! he actually does have a question ! )

From what I can gather you have become MUCH happier with the fullness of your voice since you have done these things:

1) Bought a EV n/d 767a
2) installed the NEW 2.0 presets
3) turned the trim on the Ps1 to 3/4
4) turned the trim on the remote to 1 or 2 o'clock
5) and made appropriate EQ adjustments on the Remote

Is this correct ??
Did I leave anything out ??
Have you learned anything new that might help with the Fullness ??

I lOVE the L1 and I know that their is a simple solution because I HAVE HEARD what it can do !

Thank You for your help my friend

Ted

Oh ! I almost forgot !

I am testing the unit in a 12' x 20' room. I get some High Frequency feedback whenever I try and turn up the vocals or the high EQ on the remote. I understand that the 2.0 preset called " High Gain, Bright " is helpful in situations like this where you are rather close to the L1.

I also forgot to tell you that I am currently using an: Electrovoice BK1, Shure sm86 ( much like the 87a ), and a shure sm 57 to test the L1.


Thanks Again !

Ted

Hey Ted,
Oldghm is wrapping up a vacation right now, I'm sure he'll join you soon.

One thing that may help with the "fullness" that wasn't mentioned above is mic technique. Better results seem to be obtained when the performer "eats the mic" in a sense. This will provide a fuller vocal sound, and reduce feedback also.

Personally, it was easy for me to learn to "work" the dynamics of the system vocally, because I use a wireless headset mic that is constantly against the corner of my mouth. So I control the dynamics with my voice alone, rather than by constantly varying the proximity. I only pull it away when I scream.

But I understand that performers like you and Oldghm have been "working the mic" for many years, and it takes some re-training to alter your technique.

Oldghm will have much more specific info for you, I just thought I'd throw that in there. Hang in there, this is going to be the best move you've ever made, vocally and instrumentally, once you get it figured out.

Best Wishes,
Jeff
www.theunmentionables.com

Hi Ted,

I think you have been reading some posts written very soon after I got my L1.

Yes, I do have, and I am very happy with my EV N/D767a.

The problems I had early on with my L1, dissappeared with the V.2 presets and the EV mic, however some of the comments I have made about about lack of fullness, or bass I can now attribute to a basement room that just isn't good for sound.

As soon as I started getting the L1 out of the house and into different spaces I learned that in nearly all cases it works amazingly well. In fact I have not found another room that is like my basement.

I like the EV because the proximity effect is not very strong until you get very close to the mic. This allows a very consistant tone over a distance of about 2 inches from the mic.

I am not familiar with your mic, but a Shure SM 58 for example will have a distinct tone change if you set it for very close micing, then move away 2 inches.

PS1 trim setting will depend on your mic and your singing style. Follow Bose recommended instructions and then tinker up or down a couple of notches to find what "feels" good to you.

My Channel and Master volume controls are always at 12:00 or higher.

EQ controls are adjusted for each room, but the adjustements are not major. Usually just a tiny movement of the mids or lows on the vocal, and the lows only on guitar will keep me happy.

V.2 presets are available as a download, and I would recommend you make the change, as there are more choices.

The more I use the L1 the more I realize that clarity and fullness are both attainable with the L1. Bass response is the most likely change from venue to venue and if one is not careful can be the source of mud that makes it more difficult for us to hear clearly what we are doing, thus straning our voices in an effort to change that muddiness.

I recommend starting with all vocal EQ controls straight up, appropriate preset, and make minor EQ adjustments. In most cases your natural sound will not be far from flat. If you can find your natural sound, then you can enhance as desired from a known, good, starting point.

Hope this helps, and welcome to this forum. Keep tinkering, there usually is an adjustment curve as you seek the sound that you hear in your mind.

Oldghm

Thank You Guys !

Thanks Jeff I appreciate your comments and the fact that you jumped in there

Thanks Oldghm I really appreciate your help also. I was having a hard time getting my ( rather cheesy )
DVD player to install the 2.0 presets properly, mainly because the DVD owners manual says nothing about how to set up the digital coaxial audio output for bitstream format.

However, I went out and bought a DVD player that did the bitstream format Very Well. Long story longer I NOW have 2.0 presets. HOLY COW what a difference. The new Shure SM 57 preset is sweet, my voice sounds very natural. I am much better able to experience the subtle nuances between my microphones now. All the mike presets that I have tried sound nice in there own way.

All that remains is subtle tweaking and adjustments.

I also have to keep in mind that the room I am in ( much like your basement ) is impacting the sound in a negative way. It is so small, narrow and sheet rock lined that the reflections off the walls are quite loud and poor in quality. That is not the L1's fault, it is the nature of the room and the material that it is built with.

When I turn up the L1 loud enough to overwhelm the reflections or position myself to the point where I hear the L1 clearly without reflections, it is clear that the sound is rich and full and, well, just Gorgeous and natural.

I tell you it brought tears to my eyes, I have been looking for that kind of sound for a Very Long Time.

I have never achieved this kind of sound with any other system or amp, and I can tell ya, I have tried a few.

THANK YOU BOSE !! I HOPE YALL MAKE A TON OF MONEY WITH THIS PRODUCT !!


Best Wishes to All,

Ted

quote:

THANK YOU BOSE !! I HOPE YALL MAKE A TON OF MONEY WITH THIS PRODUCT !!
Ted

Bose is a privately held company where 100% of profits go back into the company to fund research and development for new products that are groundbreaking (well, groundbreaking in our minds anyway).

For example, the L1 speaker took 10 years of R&D to figure out and we have some products that have taken 20+ years of research to figure out. Since we are not a public company, we don't need to change that bias for research.

I thought you might like to know that about Bose.

Steve

Ted, that's great news. I'm so glad you got everything worked out.

Hope to hear some gig reports from you soon.

Best Wishes,
Jeff
www.theunmentionables.com

This message has been edited. Last edited by: holliwil,

Glad to hear that things are going well Ted. Keep us advised as you progress and begin to take the L1 out to other venues / locations.

Oldghm

Hi Again Guys

Well I made two more changes that helped alot also.

I went ahead and picked up the EV n/d 767a. Man that is a hot mike, the output is quite potent for a dynamic. I see why Oldghm likes it

I was able to solve the HF feedback situation very easily. Old habits die hard and i was still using my
compressors on the guitar and the vocals. So when I would back off from the mike and there was no signal the compressor would boost the signal up and of course there was feedback.

I removed the compressor from the mike and now I have no feedback and my overhead has increased considerably, I can crank the mike up much louder than before, even in my small room I am testing the system in.

I also took the compressor off the guitar and the sound is actually richer now than it was before with the compressor on. It also gives a whole new meaning to the word " dynamics "

This is interesting stuff, quite a bit different from the old way.

Well, that's the end of my adventures for today kids, keep those cards and letters comin


Ted

quote:

I was able to solve the HF feedback situation very easily. Old habits die hard and i was still using my
compressors on the guitar and the vocals. So when I would back off from the mike and there was no signal the compressor would boost the signal up and of course there was feedback.

I removed the compressor from the mike and now I have no feedback and my overhead has increased considerably, I can crank the mike up much louder than before, even in my small room I am testing the system in.

I also took the compressor off the guitar and the sound is actually richer now than it was before with the compressor on. It also gives a whole new meaning to the word " dynamics "

Very, very interesting.

I'm especially happy to have this contribution about vocal compression inadvertently causing feedback. I'm not sure we've seen that yet.

I wonder if ST thinks it worthy of the unofficial users guide?

Thanks very much for this Ted.

Ken Jacob
Chief Engineer

quote:

I'm especially happy to have this contribution about vocal compression inadvertently causing feedback. I'm not sure we've seen that yet.

Ken,

I experienced this a while back at rehearsals in my room.
I was running 3 vocals thru a Mackie 1642 into the single L1.
I tried putting my dbx160 on them to "fatten them up",
as well as bringing out our bassist who sings timidly.

We also experienced a bit of feedback without an improvement in sound or gain for the bassist.
I discontinued use after that time, headroom seems better without it.

quote:

I wonder if ST thinks it worthy of the unofficial users guide?

on the list (although you could do it too Ken).

Thanks

ST

PS
This pretty much mirrors my experience with compression - I stopped using it on my vocals within 24 hours of getting my L1™

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

quote:

Very, very interesting.

I'm especially happy to have this contribution about vocal compression inadvertently causing feedback. I'm not sure we've seen that yet.

I wonder if ST thinks it worthy of the unofficial users guide?

Thanks very much for this Ted

You are quite welcome Ken and a big thanks to you and all the other guys for perservering and bringing the L1 to market



" Bose is a privately held company where 100% of profits go back into the company to fund research and development for new products that are groundbreaking (well, groundbreaking in our minds anyway).

For example, the L1 speaker took 10 years of R&D to figure out and we have some products that have taken 20+ years of research to figure out. Since we are not a public company, we don't need to change that bias for research.

I thought you might like to know that about Bose. "


Thanks Steve for sharing that with me, I was unaware It's good to hear that Bose is reinvesting it's income so wisely.


Hi Drumr

Nice to hear from you again, it is interesting to hear how similar your experience was to mine.

Hi ST !

quote:

Very, very interesting.

I'm especially happy to have this contribution about vocal compression inadvertently causing feedback. I'm not sure we've seen that yet.

I wonder if ST thinks it worthy of the unofficial users guide?

Thanks very much for this Ted

You are quite welcome Ken and a big thanks to you and all the other guys for perservering and bringing the L1 to market



" Bose is a privately held company where 100% of profits go back into the company to fund research and development for new products that are groundbreaking (well, groundbreaking in our minds anyway).

For example, the L1 speaker took 10 years of R&D to figure out and we have some products that have taken 20+ years of research to figure out. Since we are not a public company, we don't need to change that bias for research.

I thought you might like to know that about Bose. "


Thanks Steve for sharing that with me, I was unaware It's good to hear that Bose is reinvesting it's income so wisely.


Hi Drumr

Nice to hear from you again, it is interesting to hear how similar your experience was to mine.

Hi ST !

Well, I have been browsing the forum long enough to know that ST is The Go To Man for lotsa tech oriented info around here and a veritable fountain of knowledge in the General Info category.

I appreciate all the work you are doing around here ST and it's nice to see how civil, polite, and helpful folks are on this site.


Thanks Again To All

Ted

P.S. My next experiment will be to see how well subtle reverb fares with this system. Kinda hate to sell my Lexicon

Ted ....
In regards to reverb, I currently play for fun and to keep in shape musically/vocally in my own home. The room I play in is carpeted and approximately 12x20. I use little Alesis board with built in reverb, and I love to use just a "touch" of it to give my vocals a little spaciality.

My son did a 2-song accoustic performance for a outdoor wedding a couple of weeks ago (I should write a mini-review of this someday) using my L1 and NO vocal effects and it sounded great also. I think the natural effects of the proximity of buildings nearby (aka garage/house/doghouse/outhouse) negated the need for effects. I was shocked how great it sounded from 150 feet away. It sounded just like it did 20 feet distant. But that's for another thread.

Steve-at-Bose ... thanks for that bit of info regarding where Bose puts it's profits. Very interesting and impressive!!! to say the least.

John

Thank You Voxta

I appreciate your help and I gotta say thats a nice looking SG you got there

When testing the system with verb I will probably use it very subtly. I have already noticed when trying the reverb on guitar that even a little too much detracts from the immediacy and clarity that is inherent in the L1.

Thanks for sharing your sons experience with me, it is real world experiences like that I need to hear.

I am sure I don't need to tell you this but this is quite an amazing system.


Ted

Here's what I found out about reverb and the L1. When I tried to use the same amount that I used with my previous PA, I sounded like a pre-recorded performance. With no reverb (or just a tiny tiny bit) I sounded as if I were live. The piano and drum machine sounded very present instead of distant. If the room has any reflection at all (for example, a gym) then reverb is not needed. With my previous system in a gym, I still felt like I needed reverb because the system didn't sound good without it even though there was alot of natural reverb in the room already. This admission is coming from a reverb addict, one who did not believe the bose advice on this subject. But I believe NOW!

Cameron

Hello Everyone


Since I am sure people will become tired of my obsessive droolings over my newly aquired L1 + B1 system, I will try and keep my ongoing experiments and observations confined to this section of the forum.

Today's adventure is called " Lets get this thing out of my sound squashing living room and put it in the backyard and play music for the neighbors at 10 am on Sunday morning "

Don't try this at home Kids, the nice people next door may call men in Blue Uniforms over to visit with your parents.

OK, so, I waited till 12:45 instead, that's late enough, right ?

I set up the system on my backporch. It has a roof by the way.

I played my guitar while standing on the backporch. Very full, rich, clear, natural sound.

The first thing i noticed was that the Gain Staging didnt seem as critical as it did in my livingroom. I used the recommended Gain Staging technique suggested by Bose for one mike into channel 1 and one guitar into channel 2 and we were off. No fussy setting crazyness. It seemed trickier inside my house, but dont forget, my living room is way small.

So, moving onward, We now have Full, rich sound.

I decided to step off the porch and into the backyard. I noticed when I did that that the Bass was not as full out in the yard.

I moved the B1 to the edge of the porch about 10 feet away from the house, BIG difference. It seemed to increase the throw of the Bass tremendously, all the way to the back fence and beyond, as you will see in a minute. In case you need to know, the P1 stand was positioned about 3 feet from the back of the house.

So, now it's time to get a little more adventurous . I handed my guitar over to my daughter, she is 17 and plays quite well, and I told her to get busy

I asked her to use finger picking technique in addition to playing with a pick. She does both quite well.

While she played I walked around the yard. I walked all the way to the back fence, I walked across the yard to every corner. I walked directly towards the L1 and away from it. I walked diagonally, in circles, you name it. I also stopped and listened, alot. And then I listened alot more.

All I heard was Full, Rich, Clear sound. I finally got to hear my acoustic guitar Sound like an acoustic guitar. Even from ( diagonally speaking ) 100 feet away. I could hear every little nuance of my daughters performance as if she was standing not more than 3 to 4 feet away. Every little finger squeak, etc.

When I say that I finally got to hear my acoustic guitar Sound like an acoustic guitar, I am not talking about the bright, thin, all mids and highs kinda sound that you often get in even really nice recordings of acoustic guitars. Oh no. I mean a full, rich, warm bodied, beautiful presentation of an acoustic guitar that included plenty of Lows and Low mids.

I was just amazed.

You see I am one of those guys who can never tweak anything enough. I feel that I can make anything sound better If I am allowed to twiddle the knobs enough and aquire enough new gear to put my bank account in serious jeopardy.


But now, I must tell you, much to my dismay ( Long Pause )



I don't think I need to tweak it anymore.






So Guys and Gals, that's our story for today.

Keep those cards and letters comin.

Be here next time when we try, Vocals

See you then

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Ted the musicman,

quote:

When I say that I finally got to hear my acoustic guitar Sound like an acoustic guitar, I am not talking about the bright, thin, all mids and highs kinda sound that you often get in even really nice recordings of acoustic guitars. Oh no. I mean a full, rich, warm bodied, beautiful presentation of an acoustic guitar that included plenty of Lows and Low mids.

I was just amazed.

You see I am one of those guys who can never tweak anything enough. I feel that I can make anything sound better If I am allowed to twiddle the knobs enough and aquire enough new gear to put my bank account in serious jeopardy.


But now, I must tell you, much to my dismay ( Long Pause )



I don't think I need to tweak it anymore.

Ted,

I just love your story. We set out to make a system that would make instruments and voices sound clear and natural, easily. We identified the complexity of equipment as one of the main things that's wrong with conventional approaches.

We wanted to make something that would increase the time musicians spent playing, and enjoying themselves. We thought that in and of itself would make the world a much better place.

THANK YOU for taking the time to share your experiences with all of us.

Ken Jacob
Chief Engineer

Thanks Ken


I am glad you enjoyed the story, I would have gotten back to you sooner but I was ill a couple of days. I feel much better now though.



More to Come,

Ted