Our band needs some sort of PA. The singer is currently singing through a keyboard amp and we all use amps. But nobody can hear anyone else. The drummer suffers the worst as all the amps shoot forward of him. If me or the singer don't jump up and down in front of him, he doesn't have a clue about when the song is ending....he can't hear.

I suggested the Bose PAS as it won't involve monitors, simple setup, and we should all be able to hear the volcals and her guitar. We might also run the backup vocals into the same PAS using a little mixer.

But - then I'm thinking, the banjo player/keyboardist will want one... (at $2K)

And then I'm thinking hmmmm....that would be simple for me too....Off axis, you don't hear my guitar much. Then I be using some modeler? Actually, tiny Adrenalinn would be perfect....or maybe get a Tonelab SE/Pod XTL. (gawd - the thought of being amp-less?) The thought of those Blackface amps sitting quietly at home....a shame....and the $2K price....

I just don't think we have the time/energy to mess with a real PA and all those wires...and get everything set up properly. But the rediculous price...$2K per rig???? I like the PAS concept and the fact that everyone can hear each other and there's great coverage...it would really help control volume levels....but it requires that we all use them?

Is this stupid? Should we just get some regular PA? We're just some hacks....we probably play a handful of parties a year and practice once a week.

Maybe only one PAS would work?

Sorry for the ramble....

Thoughts?

With drums, I'd suggest at least two PAS systems. That's a chunk of change but if you want the simplest, best sounding and easiest to haul/setup going, it's the PAS.

A conventional small system and some monitoring capability will run close to $1000 minimum and that will never come close to covering the area that a PAS will cover. Get into something that will cover as large of an area and you're talking several thousands. Also, figure at least double/triple setup time, a van/truck to haul it all and the fact that you probably will be guessing your performance mix and the PAS starts looking pretty good from a financial standpoint. I also suspect a used PAS will retain more re-sell value than a conventional rig too.

You may or may not like the direct electric thing although I'm an AdrenaLinn addict and it's been working extremely well for me. Worst case, grab a little tube Champ, Crate 5W or some other small tube amp and mic that with the PAS.

That keyboard amp might still come in handy for helping with bass or something if you want more bottom to that range? My bass guy usually does fine with dual B1's except for the largest venues in which case he adds his old bass amp.

And another cool thing is that you can always return the system within 45 days if it doesn't blow your hat off. Don't try that with any other manufacturer.

With drums, I'd suggest at least two PAS systems. That's a chunk of change but if you want the simplest, best sounding and easiest to haul/setup going, it's the PAS.

A conventional sma

Lance, I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head regarding the issue of benefits vs. the cost. The PAS will definitely keep your life simple in terms of PA setup, and you won't need separate monitors, monitor amps, mixers, cabling, and possibly a snake to a sound guy in the audience to run it all. Those are $$ savings that are real. And I've heard from some PAS owners who have justified the cost based on the savings in not paying for a sound man. So, the savings are there, if looked for over the long run.

But it is a chunk of change up front, no doubt about it. My band is also just getting started, and we're not sure yet where we'll be playing or how often. We've got one system now which I've been using for my guitars and my wife's keyboard at church, and will be picking up another tomorrow for use by my band's vocalist and another guitarist/vocalist, with a third planned in a week or so for bass and drums. We're fortunate to have the $$ to get them now before we're really working, but hope to be able to use them as an advantage (i.e., people will hire us because we sound clearer/better than other bands with traditional PAs) and eventually make them pay for themselves over time.

You didn't say how many people are in your group or what kinds of instruments are played. I have a 5-person band with 6 inputs - vocalist, guitar w/vocals, guitar, bass, drums. We think three systems is all we're going to need to get started, figuring 2 inputs per PAS: the vocalist and lead guitar will share a L1/B1, the guitarist who does vocals will have one L1/B1 to himself, and the bass and drums will share a L1/2B1. If you give us some specifics, there are experienced people who can help you configure a setup that will work for you without breaking the bank, and maybe give you a growth plan as you can afford to get closer to "one person, one PAS".

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the advice so far folks!

So - the band looks like this:
- (Me) Electic Guitar (occasionally a Variax) (lucky for everyone - I don't sing)
- Singer / Acoustic Guitar
- Singer / Bass Player
- Singer / Banjo / Keyboard
- Drummer

(The Bass player and Banjo usually share a mic)

Hi Lance,

You are getting great advice.

Please take a couple of minutes with the Sketcher Tool so we can picture your setup.

Drop me a line here when you've done it and I'll post the result for you.

That's the general idea. Although, I couldn't find a picture of a keyboard amp that the singer (on acoustic) uses for her vocal mic. She's also using my Fender Acoustasonic Jr. amp for her Ovation and my 80's Fender Superchamp for her tele. The banjo player isn't playing keyboards now but will be doing that soon as well.

Hi to All!

Here's the layout that Lance provided.



Thanks for doing that Lance. I appreciate the comments about the Sketcher and the need for other instruments and amps.

Two!

Hey Lance,

I'd like to jump in and offer some additional stuff to think about.

Here's a big shocker, I think the system would be a great solution for you -- imagine that, a Bose guy thinks this would be great ... let me explain my point-of-view.

I think of the speaker system as a personal (then personalized) amplification system. You don't go to the gig without your guitar, why show up without your fair share of the amplification? Then there is the transportation, storage and setup and tear down. I've been in a few bands where when we parted ways I've had to say, "okay, those are my cables, that's my monitor and I own 25% of the PA speakers ... now what?" Not fun.

I've been a part of this community for a long time now (day one actually) and I've seen this many times. Someone in the band has the courage to buy one (or two) and the other folks love the system so much that all-of-a-sudden people start buying their own. Then the band members start dialing in their tone and how they want to sound and the band is now in "personalized" mode.

As far as the cost goes, well that's a personal value assessment. If you do the "bang for buck" assessment I'm confident you'll find the speaker to be very much worth the money. And, like a good instrument, it retains its value. I've been watching eBay and the average used price for a single-bass system ($2000 new) is nearly $1800 - plus shipping. That's just a 10% loss in value! When people say "wow, two-grand, that's a lot" I usually say, "yeah, a little less than a Martin HD-28, less than a new Les Paul, ..." and on and on. Then they go "hey, you're right."

Lastly is the fun factor. Being able to hear your music is the best benefit of all to me. With monitors and mains you never really know what the audience (or band members) are hearing. You've got several mixes in the room all at once. Since my band is all about us having a good time (we're a self-proclaimed "soccer band" since we pass on gigs so that we can go to our kids soccer games) this system and way of making music suits us really well. We can hear each other, be playful, know what the audience is hearing and focus on making fun music together. The "one mix in the room" benifit is the biggest one for us.

And, since this approach makes it easy to transport, set-up and tear down (and store) the amplification system, the pre- and post-gig hassles are gone. In fact, it takes me more time to set up my guitars (I tend to bring 4 -- why? 'cuz it's fun!) than to set up my fair share of the amplification system.

I hope that rather long post helps in your decision process. I could go on and on but I think I've said enough. If you have more question please feel free to ask.

Steve

PS You don't need to leave your amp at home. You can mic it and then everyone will hear your carefully crafted tone. Today, your tone is not what you think it is I'll bet. Try the "spin your amp" demonstration found here. (click here)

I'm hearing ya here! At our infrequent gigs I know my tone sounds thin when I move into the audience as we're doing sound checks. Up close it's awesome...blackface deluxe reverb glory....but out in front...no lows...weak highs...no complex overtones.

We did an interesting experiment the other night at our studio. We center mic'ed (2 of them) the room directly into a DAT just to work on some of our arrangement and sound. Even with the banjo blaring, nothing showed up on tape. My tone was nothing like it sounded standing by the amp.

Now - I can attribute that recording experience to lousey mic'ing. Obviously, we should each have our own mics....mine should be sitting just off the cone. Then, I'm sure my tone would be what I heard. But - I guess this center mic'ing experience did prove that my tone isn't what I hear...heck...those mics were only 10 feet from my amp and it sounded lame.


I talked to the banjo/keyboard player. He's willing to go audition the PAS w/me. He used to do a lot of sound (the studio is his)...and he thinks a regular PA is the way to go. But - he's also kinda unconventional...he'd be willing to try something different just to be different. I'm going to try to convince him to just buy a rig from Musicians Friend so we can return them if it doesn't work for us. At a minimum, I think we can start w/the vocals, acoustic, and banjo going into a single rig. Once we've made that leap, I'd probably end up with my own.

Thanks for the advice all.

Hey Lance,

A few more thoughts from me ...

First of all, where are you located? There may be someone in your area that can come to you to do a demonstration if you're interested in that kind of opportunity.

Second, one of the best domonstrations we do with the system (in my opinion) is to mic up a small amp like your Deluxe Reverb and then turn the volume on the system up and down. When the volume is up, glorious guitar tone everywhere in the room; when the system volume is down, mushy, muddy blah tone throughout most of the room -- harsh, ouch-my-ears-hurt tone on axis with the amp.

They key way to think about this is seperate tone creation from tone delivery. Use your amp, a POD, effects, etc., to create the tone you're looking for and let the Cylidrical Radiator(r) speaker deliver that sound to the room. As guitar players we tend to obsess over tone and the Cylindrical Radiator speaker is the only speaker on the market (that I know of) that can fill the room evenly, front-to-back, side-to-side, with your carefully crafted tone.

Also, since there is one mix in the room, if it sounds great to you, that's what everyone else hears. If it sounds bad to you, make your tweaks to fix it and know that now the audience is hearing what you're hearing. It's really a tone nut's dream come true in my opinion.

Best of luck with the investigation and let us know how we can help with the decision making process. This way may, or may not, be the right thing for you guys but I want you to know we're here to help with the learning; that way you can make an informed decision.

The best way to decide of course is try it for yourself (and we can help with that too).

Keep in touch,
Steve

We're in Charlottesville, VA. That's about an hour west of Richmond. (and home of the Dave Matthews Band....and Thomas Jefferson).

I think there's a Guitar Center in Fredricksburg, VA that's about an hour away. They're a pretty lame lot if you ask me. I've been to that store a few times and they didn't know a tele from a martin.

But - if there's a better place nearby, I'd appreciate knowing.

thanks!

Thanks,

I'm pretty sure I know someone who will come to you if you're open to that. How does he contact you? Send me a Private Message with your contact info. (to send a Private Message click on "Steve-at-Bose" on the left and choose the private message option)

Steve

Contact info sent to ya Steve.....

Got it ... thanks. I'm on it now.

Just one comment from a group who has two units and have borrowed one so each memebr of our three-man group would have one. First off, we love the systems, so this is not a negative comment. However, the comment is, once you do a gig where each person has their own, you won't want to go back. Sometimes you lose the ability to hear your instrument when it is coming through the same system with someone else. Admittedly, it could also be my hearing from too many years of playing. In conclusion, though, we're ready for a third unit and, if the group expands, each new member would have a $2000 initiation cost :-).