Hi All,
I'm still lurking here - trying to convince the "powers that be" in our church that we need to switch to the PAS - and you may recall, I am the Pastor - but the uphill slog continues. For a reminder - we're stuck using a Mackie board, 1400i amps and Yamaha Club Series IV cabs. We've been with the system for about 6 years in a warehouse setting. The system has developed problems over the years, due to some basic wear, unclean power supply (we need some serious power conditioning!) etc. and hasl;eft us with a screachy, howly, feedback prone setup that the PAS seems tailor made to cure or at least dramatically improve.

But anyway, six months after first visiting here, I'm still trying to negotiate with our people to even try out the system. There's just so much resistance - ("That's a lot of money", "I don't know if it would make that much of a difference", "You mean you want to do this WITHOUT SOUNDMEN?" etc.) Band pracetices often result in nearly 25% of the rehearsal time going to trying to straighten out mix issues and feedback.

So today, I approached our team about just me "unplugging" and getting a single system on the 45 day trial - my throat is RAW from the latest practice where I strained my voice trying to be heard through the monitors - so I was suggesting a compromise, one that might save my voice, and inprove the time we're spending trying to proactice by making them more effiecient. I proposed we wait to look at the three systems we would need and let's just test drive one. .. And it flopped = everything from people wondering if the 45 day trial REALLy is what it seems (cynicism running deep here now) to "what happens at the end of the 45 day trial - then we'll probably just say that we need the other two and go ahead and buy them - that's a lot of money!" (and this from one of the musicians who should understand).

So - to all you happy souls in PAS land - be thankful and greatful that your band/organization was willing to make the leap. I know it's not the cure-all for everything in audio land, but I do believe it would help us - but at present, some of us can only smile approvingly and say - "Boy! Must be nice!" - Enjoy what you've got - other people sure do want to join you in PAS-ville!

Hi Pastor,

I empathize with your situation and the powers that should not be in the church. I have always believed the Bose L1 system was a gift from God though my church might not agree. It certainly saved me musically.

Have you ever considered evangelism? The L1 would be a perfect companion to getting a clear message through.

I'm not joking. Buy a system yourself, look for a more open minded church, or take your message on the road. Do you think you might be getting that same message from your heart?

I think I am reading that, or am I way off base...I have been before.

Whatever you are led to do, I wish you the best.

You know - I just noticed a misleading line in my post - "six months after visiting here and i'm still trying..." The HERE is this BB (a wonderful community - reminds me of the Line 6 LA Users group - "Institute of Noise" - equally fine group of people!) - and I realized that might sound like the church that I'm referring to! Ha!

I've been here 9 years (I'm the founding pastor) and they are a very wonderful group of people - just got some old school music buddies in themix that are caught up in the "gotta be big to sound big" mindset and unfortunately, after all the cash spent over the nine years, trying to get the triple system to go beyond the limits thazt are inherent to it's very design, they are "monied out" - makes sense from their perspective!

On the evangelist front - nah, never relayy thought about that as I'm too much of a home kinda guy - although big fish have been used as strong motivators before (seems like i read something about that in a book once! )

Aaah, I see. I did misread your thoughts.

I only mention the evangelical route as I had also suggested it to our pastor who writes very good songs himself. He said the same thing as you, not interested in travel. I wouldn't be either. But I could really picture Pastor Steve with his acoustic and an L1 traveling around teaching the world.

Old school approach I understand. More shop at Wal-mart than Hammacher-Schlemmer. It's just the way it goes. Hang in there, they may come around.

BDotson,
Where are you located? There may be one of our Assisted Direct Reps in your area that would be more than happy to arrange a demo for you?

Well hearing is believing with the bose. When I first brought it up to my guitar player, that we should get one for our band.

I got the it's too expensive, we don't need it we have a pa argument.

When I just got one (caught hell because she happens to be my wife too) and plugged everyone into it the attitude changed. she now understands.

If I were you I would get one on my own money, for the trial, take a couple days to learn how to use it, then take it to practice and plug some of the problematic instruments/voices into it that are messing up your mix. Or just do a demo with just a few instruments.

If it's set up right it will sound good, and they will hear how good. The singers will notice it the most. If they still are resistant then they are just being hardheaded and not really that worried about good sound.

Then just explain that you cannot afford it on your own, and that this was your way of giving everyone a demo, and it has to go back. Then at least when sound problems come up in the future, you will be able to point to the PAS as a proven solution that they cannot deny.

Selling points that got me around the whole, "it's awfully expensive thing," was to sell it too my wife like this.

1. It is both a pa for vocals & an amp for my bass and your guitar, and in the future our drummers electric kit........ So, it's like many birds with one stone. It's not just for vocals or just a guitar amp.
2. Four channels.
3. Anywhere we go we can bring great sound.
4. Set up is simple no knowledge of complicated sound equipment is needed.
5. Set up and tear down in minutes, no backaches, or getting home at 5 am because of a midnight show.
6. Feedback is easily eliminated. With the proper mic technique and placement I get vocal extremely loud and clear without eq'ing out frequencies. In fact I can add much highend to add cut if I want.

7. once you get going with the system you'll find that if you have the same set up of musicians all the time, that you have to change little, even if you go to a different room, and you instantly sound much more professional as a group. even at practice in the garage my band now sounds like it's professionally mixed, as if we have a soundman their making sure everything is at the right levels.

8. No backline monitors. The mix you hear on stage is what the audience will hear. I can't count the number of times I used to ask people how it sounded, only to find out that it sounded like crud out in the audience when we had a good stage sound and visa versa.

I agree with Chad, let us know where you are and maybe something can be arranged.

Chad, I'm not trying to steal your thunder, but when I first read it, I thought the same thing even before I read your post.

As a matter a fact, this weekend I am lending both my systems to a DJ friend of mine. I am positive he will take care of it and that he will be pleased.

quote:

If I were you I would get one on my own money, for the trial,...Then just explain that you cannot afford it on your own, and that this was your way of giving everyone a demo, and it has to go back.

Amen.

(Ric, you are sooo cruel!)

Oh this is getting interesting now - check THIS out! One of our former board members is a very respected sound guy - been doing it for nearly 30 years now and has a great ear but (as is often then case with veteran sound guys) is VERY skeptical about all the promises of the latest "audio gadgetry". He's no longer in the decision making seat of our Church Council but as in any group, he is one of those "influencers" - the unofficial leaders that people pay a lot of attention to.

He now longer runs the mix that often in our main services as he's become very involved in some fantastic outreach work with a local battered women's shelter and a weekly outreach to the homeless in Charlotte, NC. So this is where things get interesting: We've just completed spending $3500 for a massive mobile stage rental from a local audio contractor (huge vertical array rig on a 20x24 foot stage with lights and the whole shebang - including Yamaha digital console with SIX monitor mixes). We were doing a NASCAR fans outreach outdoors and on the first night, my friend Kevin (the sound expert!) was in the audience to cheer us on. He was pleased at the crowds that showed up but quite irritated at the 35 minutes it took for the engineers from the audio company to get us our monitor mix! The crowd was booing and cussing and looked like many would walk out due to the horrible wait. Eventually we started and the people were happy. However, the $3.5k sound techs missed the fact that the monitors were set POST fader! All night our 6 different monitor mixes were ebbing and flowing with the FOH mix! At the end of the night, we were nearly DEAF too!!! Funny side note - Disney/PIXAR was premiering their new movie "Cars" about 1000 yards away and sent the security people over to tell us to turn it down - we just pointed at the sound guys and said "talk to them!" LOL! I think the Speedway Security people had better control over our mix than we did!

Anyway, the next night was better as they got the monitor sends in the right order and everyone was generally pleased.

However, exactly seven days later, Kevin is at his weekly homeless outreach and calls me on his cell - "You won't believe this! There's this small praise and worship band here at the shelter and they are ROCKIN' the place!" The best part? They were using a single PAS with a pair of B1s! He talked my ear off for the next twenty minutes about how stunned he was at the punch and the clarity and the ease of set up.

Direct qoute: "Brian - a week ago I watched as these high dollar techs took over half an hour to just get you a monitor mix after having taken nearly an hour before working on the mains - and all the people grumbling at having to stand around - and then what a cruddy mix it was for the house - not to mention that awful monitor mix - well tonight I watched this little girl probably in her early 20s bring in this whole BOSE setup and in 5 minutes they were playing - not sound checking - actually doing what they came here for! And I tell you what - I really believe with a couple of these things and say 4-6 subs (NOTE: we're looking at 3 towers with 6-8 subs total and a packlite) we could EASILY do the Speedway gig - faster, cheaper, and definitely sound better!!! I was a skeptic beofre but I promise you - I'M A BELIEVER NOW!" - That last part is something we pastors love to hear! (LOL!)

So the point is - one of the most technically skeptical and influential members of my circle who influences the decision making process by his thumbs up or down - He got a stunning real world comparison - and totally outside of my doing. Things may be looking up! We've heard from a local Bose rep and are looking at a full head to head test in the next couple of weeks.

PS - Kevin also mentioned that his brother who lives an hour or so away, called him up the same day asking if Kev might like to buy some gear he was selling. Why was he letting go of it? He and HIS band had just purchased 4 of these wild new "sticks" from BOSE and didn't need all this obselete audi gear they have laying around now! Either from the Bose rep or from Kevin's bro - we're going to get an extended test drive very soon!

From every angle, someone's working to convinve the skeptics around here! WooHoo!!!!

I'll keep you posted. Man, am I ever getting lessons on being patient!!!

Yeah!!!

Great !

I'm telling you... the first time I plugged in my guitar-bug wireless into my bose - and walked to the back of my church and played...
I thought " WHY OH WHY do we have 15K worth of heavy- hard to work with crap hanging from the ceiling ???"

And here's another new development - the sound guru I mentioned is so committed to the change in paradigm now that he's just notified me "I think I can get hold of a single bass system for you to use for a couple days - what if I get it to you, let you get adjusted to it and then we spring it on the fellas by doing an acoustic worship service where you and the BGVs go it alone through the PAS without the old system at all - that way EVERYBODY will get the expereince I just had and everybody all at once will see the night and day difference these things make!"

So again - without any intervention on my part, the very same thing you guys suggested (get one on trial, expose people then return it so they can deal with the old system and see how clear the solution would be!) gets moved into place - and some people don't believe in answers to prayer? Sheesh!!

Hey Friends Big AL here!
I have found that both sound people and musicans can be very narrow minded and conservative about sound and sound gear. Churches being amoung the worst in that regard. Check out my post in nay-sayers[painful!] Now I use my Bose where and when I want to! I gently tell people that this is my amp for my voice and my guitar system and I ask if they can deal with that! If they can't then I don't have to lead worship play jazz or sing or whatever! I am the artist and I choose what to use as my amp/Bose whatever!
On Sunday I played at a jazz church service with a group of very young post bop players who insisted on line outs from my L1. When I got tired of that I asked them to just mic the tower and of course that just led to feed back in their monitors and that was the end to getting the my pas into "the system". When I wanted to hide in the mix or let my sound waft out it was my choice. The sound man was powerless to help or hurt MY sound and thats the way I personally like it. I have trained all my life to musically stand on my own to feet and the Bose Pas completes the loop and lets me do that in a ultra musical manner! I plan to have 8 Pas systems on my dime so I can do what I want musically/sound wise! I'm owning that and the gear so people can take it or leave it. Why! Because alot of people would rather put up with bad sound instead of changing to the pas out of fear,ignorance or whatever! I choose not to have time for that kind of stuff. I'm am not saying or telling anyone to take on my attitude in this manner. However I am asking "why all the resistance". I know that IF I showed up at my church with eight L1/b1 combos that they didn't have to pay for that they would use/abuse the towers like it was their idea! AL......

One other thought on this subject:
There is this strange thought of alignment.
As I have become a member of this Bose community it almost seems odd how the bose draws some people and repels others! It cuts across the board to all demographics,types of music and so forth. I have often thought of ways to help people[such as a church] with their adversion to trying not just one pas but 4 or 5 of them! I think one HUGE answer to this question is to use the power of Questions to assist them in being more open minded! Such as what would it hurt to try this? Or what problems could this solve? What if this idea were a wonderful solution but we were to afraid and to limted in our thinking to try it out? Could this lead to situration where other people in our group or organization stop sharing ideas with the thought "they will never go for that-don't bother"? I believe that asking question of this type might be helpful for the one asking and the people being asked.
I believe that if after asking the awnswer is no
we are not going to try that! Then I think it's time to move on! Why? Because it's not really about the Bose is it? It's about ideas and respecting the idea giver! Big AL....

interesting Al - very interesting. I've had those thoughts in the back of my mind for a bit concerning the larger implications involved. Close mindedness is something I vehemently fight against as a Pastor - first because of the stereotypes unfairly (usually) assigned to people of faith and also because of the deep cynicism we can have against Scripture as well sometimes. Being closeminded or having preconcieved conclusions before hearing someone/something out can really rob you of a new and wonderful experience or relationship!

From a purely audio point of view, it's a similar story - closemindess to the Personal Amplification System can keep people in the sonic "dark ages" where fear and tradition for tradition sake end up convincing people it's better to live with something that simply doesn't work but they are familiar with, than digging deeper, asking hard questions and stepping out "in faith" to explore what's actually out there. The PAS, to really overextend the analogy, is "seeing the light". It's funny for me as a pastor to hear people say things like "I checked it out for myself and I'm a believer!" or "I never thought it could be like this - how could I have been so blind and closeminded?" or "I opened up and gave it a chance and WOW - I was blown away - everything is so different now!" How cool is it that I'm watching skeptics "convert" to "believers" and not just in my vocation, but in music as well!

Although I'd like to add that at times, waiting for the Second Coming and waiting for the "okay, let's buy the PAS!" from the church baord seem rather similar! Let me add that I do believe both are going to happen eventually!

Amen and Right on!
The church board....hmmmmm? The musicians hmmmm?
The congregation okay! You Bdotson AHA!
What would happen if you drew a picture of
the stage at your church with the number of
Bose that would choose to use? How cool would it
be to have copies of that picture on your desk,on the wall in your practice space over your bed and so forth. Visulizing the worship team using the bose and loving the sound, the
people in deep worship the Lord being glorfied
and on and on!What would happen? Big AL

Probably something like this:

On the last Saturday of this month (July 2006) we are nopw scheduled for a full afternoon BOSE "Shootout" with our full team and 3 LI systems with 6 b1s - I'm trying to line up a Packlite so we can run 4 b1s on the bass/drums system - we'll see. BTW - the band I did the NASCAR Fans outreach with - he just told me the other day that he's buying his OWN L1 single bass combo with a VoiceLine unit to go with it - I use one so he's sold. Also - BTW - I just ordered an Audix OM5 to use for myself - preparing for good things to come very soon. The Church Baord (at our last meeting) suggested something novel to me: "Why don't we look at spending the money we'd planned on using for that big huge sound company rental, and instead, put it toward getting into some Bose systems? I bet we could do the whole event and it would be easier, sound far better, and save us so much hassle and money in the long run!" - I loked at them - wondering who they were and what they had done with our usual church board - and calmy said "Hmmm - what an intiguing idea..."

I'll keep you all posted!

Best of luck!

Our demo is approaching - 5 days away! In the latest Church Board meeting, I made it clear thatchange is no longer a negotiable issue - we've gone too long with the "money pit" of our old triple system - you know how that goes: tweak tweak tweak, buy something to help fix this or that issue, tweak tweak tweak, buy something else to fix the same old issue, tweak tweak, buy replacement parts for cables or amp that didn't do so well with lat tweak tweak tweak, repeat ad nauseum. The board, when faced with the history of our long history of our battle with the standard triple system approach - finally agreed.

So , pending a satisfactory demo - which looks promising as our Bose Direct Rep is coming with his own personal system to "show us the ropes" - we'll order 3 double bass systems and an A1. I'll let you know how it all turns out!

Great news Bdotson, what you said about tweak, tweak tweak is soooo true and it really never ends. Everyone should look at how much money is spent on this method of sound system design and the fact that it never seems to do what we want it to.

Success at last!