 |
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
L1® Users Forum Musicians General Forums What Do You Think of This New Approach? Thinking about getting the L1™ System|
Go
|
New
|
Find
|
Notify
|
Tools
|
Reply
|
|
 |
Dave Muscato's post below originally appeared here:
Who is using the Personalized Amplification System ™ To preserve the direction of the original discussion above, I have copied Dave's post here so we can talk about the some of the points he raised.
Hi Dave - if you would like me to change the title of the discussion - let me know, and I'll do that. |
||
|
|
|
Moved Reply:
Hi Dave, Thanks for dropping in and sharing your thoughts. Sometimes I wonder that any of us manage to do any of the things we want to and especially when it relates to music. You sound like a very resourceful person and I have no doubt that you can find a way with to handle the financing once you get the other things (like ownership) figured out. There are several benefits that don't become readily apparent until you are experiencing them. Here are a few:
As far as 'who would pay for it', I think you have a pretty good handle on that in the paragraph near the end where you compare the owning the L1™ to owning your own back-line gear.
Mix 'n Match
Once you experience playing in an all L1™ band, you may seriously reconsider the first sentence. As for mixing and matching: If every performer is present, in the moment, conscious of the music and intentional about what he or she is doing, then you can mix and match. It is easier with an all L1™ band, but that doesn't mean that you can't make a lot of great music while you are in transition. You might get something out of this: Is it too expensive?. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. PS I just saw your Sketch in the Sketcher. I will get going on that but probably won't have much for you until morning (PST). PPS In the meantime you might enjoy this Electric Bass and the L1™ System by Andrew Douglas. PPPS I've started a new discussion for your stage setup discussion: 3 Piece Rock Bank - Dave Muscato |
|||
|
 |
Moved Reply:
Hi Dave, Nice to have you hear. It looks like you are really thinking the L1 thing through, commendable! I love seeing that you guys are using in-ears to protect your hearing, very smart thing to do. Not only that, but you don't need floor monitors. Only problem for you I guess, is not actually hearing your own out-front mix, and that sucks, I've been there. Money is a snag for young guys like you just getting going, but if you look at the amount of time you are likely to be making music, it will average out very cheaply. If I had spent $10K on Bose gear in '70, that would have been $270/year for my sound gear. Dirt cheap! Could you finance through a bank friend? That's how I bought my JBL system back in the day. I'm pretty sure you guys could use only 2-L1/2-B1 systems with a Packlite amp and 2 extra B1s for the kick drum. My band used that arrangement for a year and it worked beautifully. Three systems is much simpler to setup...no mixer, and we love it, but as stage/audience satisfaction goes, two can work fine. So you can get into it for $5600 if you go with Model Is. As to who owns the systems...that's another difficult one. In my case, I own them. I have always owned the PA gear. It would be nice if everyone bought their own, and with this new approach I'm certain that will be happening more and more. It's feasable now, and wonderful that we all can own and transport our own gear without buying a van. My Chrysler mini can haul ALL of our gear without even removing the two back seats. The great thing about the L1 system is that once you own it, you won't need to keep buying all the outboard gear that is attractive to traditional system owners. You know, the compressors, EQs, reverbs, analyzers, racks of amps...etc, etc. This message has been edited. Last edited by: Drumr, |
|||
|
|
|
Thanks ST!
|
|||
|
 |
Hi Dave,
I'm glad to see you checking out the prospect of switching over to the L1 approach. It sounds to me like you have the concept down and you have done your research. As to the issue of ownership, I'd like to also chime in on how we "crossed over" to the L1. We were lucky enough to all have good day jobs, except for our drummer, when we originally purchased over 3 years ago. So I ended up buying 2 systems. So we had 4 systems for 4 players. But things change, and our guitar player of 9 years moved away, taking his L1 system with him. So I ended up purchasing a 3rd system for a replacement guitar player. We just couldn't live with sharing a system when we were spoiled by the "one system per player" approach. I guess the good thing is, as Pete mentioned, that the system is scalable, and you can start with 2 systems and do just fine. Then you can always purchase another system down the line. I guess it was a good thing that I originally owned 2 systems, because we also replaced our drummer within our 3 year L1 period. So, if the original drummer had taken his unit with him, we would have had to purchase yet another system. Even the most seemingly stable bands can have personnel changes. And, believe me, after you "cross over" to the L1 approach, you will never consider going back to standard PA gear again. Best of Luck with your decision, Best Wishes, Jeff www.theunmentionables.com |
|||
|
 |
Dave, did ya get my PM? Hope to see you this summer!
Pete and I discussed this at lunch today. I think there is a huge benefit of owning all the gear - you always have it. Not to sound like a power issue or Mr. Moneybags (golly, far from it!), but I like the control aspect of it. Maybe it comes from being self-employed, without employees. I'm just used to doing things myself. Not that I'm not a team player when I need to be (edit here: musically, I must be), I just don't ask for help, or expect it. This is probably a bad trait, truthfully, but for now that's kind of how it is. Not prideful, mind you, just built-in or habitual. Well, there's a little about me that has nothing to do with anything. Let's see if I can get back on track. I say again, if one owns it all, it is always there. I agree with building as you go for the sake of financial outlay. Granted I started solo, but 3 years later, I am still using one (occasionally I do borrow and I am most appreciative) with success for 1-2 vocals, flute, piano and bass. I don't mic drums. It works. Two is better, sure. Three...hmmmm. Oh, Peeeete... (EDIT) I should add that my bass player intermittently brings his amp and plays through it, or it and the L1. The idea of mix and match is totally fine in my book. The very nature of group playing is that you are a team, not a bunch of soloists trying to outdo each other. Therefore, ideally you're looking for that great mix whether you're all L1 or not. One other point on one guy owns all the systems: There are things that people do, that when our names our attached to something, you want to do everything in your power to make it everything you can. We end up investing (ourselves, finances, time, etc.) a heap, when maybe the next person doesn't quite understand. Really, it just comes down to different strokes for different folks. If we can meet up this summer in St. Louis or here in central IL for a small gathering, I think the non-sales atmosphere (like going to Guitar Center for a demo, for instance) will behoove you enormously. I know it will me. I'm learning more all the time! Nathan |
|||
|
 |
Dave - Heres another perspective - I play bass, and do so regularly with a guitarist using a Mesa Boogie head driving 8-12s. He does not like the L1, and will not use it (and I even have a 2nd system that he could use). The drummer is so loud that he doesn't need ANY reinforcement. I use 2-B1s at practice in a 20x30 room, and 4-B1s + Packlite-amp for gigs, and have no problem being heard in the audience, or hearing myself on stage. I have experineced very few issues with mixed sound. As ST says, if all the musicians are 'here - now' and listening to each other, it works just fine. The L1 players enjoy much better sound delivery and easier monitoring in my opinion, but the only playing issue I've ever had is when forced to stand in the death-ray-of-sound from another guitar player's Marshall stack when he joined us to jam - then I couldn't hear the bass from the L1 until I moved to the side of the Marshall cab, and it was still a little 'low' compared to the Marshall in that stage postion. Next time I'll get him to setup on the other side of the stage... In my opinion, the primary disadvantage to the mixed system is that if multiple vocalists are split between 3-tier and Bose, the vocalist using Bose will be heard clearly everywhere, and the 3-tier vox will be heard in the traditional hot-spot-center and muted-edges fashion, which can make harmonies more interesting  . It looks like one voice in your group so that should not be something to deal with. I sold a most of a thirty year collection of bass and guitar amplifiers, PA equipment, effects units, and ended up covering about $4400 of the initial $4800 cost for 2 L1-2B1 systems. I used the free trial to test one L1-2B1 system, and liked it so well that I I started selling on eBay and kept selling until I had the better part of the $$ for a second system for my wife to use for vocals, and to use for guests etc. |
|||
|
Moved Reply:
Drumr wrote,
Pete, Do you store, haul, and set up all the L1s for your band? When I was playing in a band and owned all the PA equipment I got 10% off the top for supplying the equipment. 10% went into a band fund and the remaining 80% was split equally. If a band is using a traditional PA it kind of makes sense for one person to own the entire system. I haven't been able to figure out why in an all L1 band why one person would supply all the systems. If I recall, Tom Munch owns four systems and outfits his entire band. Robert L |
||||
|
 |
Hi:
About the only thing I can suggest is that you start with two L1's and buy them by taking advantage of Guitar Center's one-year-to-pay arrangement. Like you, I also think they are quite expensive but they are worth the money so you should be happy with the purchase. You could either: buy one yourself on the one-year-to-pay deal, and have one of your other band members buy the other one using the same financing deal. Or, maybe between the three of you, you could agree to go thirds on both units so that, at the end of the year, all three of you will have saved the money to pay for them. Then...once you've paid for the two L1's...get the third one using the one-year financing deal (assuming it's still available) along with some more B1's (and Packlite) if you find your bass player needs a couple more of those things. The only drawback to this that I can see (there's always a risk with something like this) is that: 1) You must find a way to pay up in full at the end of the term or risk heavy finance charges (I don't encourage the use of this credit method unless you are sure you can raise the money at the end of the one-year term), and 2) If three of you buy two L1's together how do you divvy them up if one of you leaves the band, etc? One positive outcome, if you experience what I did using my L1 for the first time, is that fifteen or so minutes into using your L1 for the first time you'll most likely want to sell your other gear right there and then, so you could always recoup some $$$$ there to help pay for the L1s. Anyway, I hope you're able to find a way to at least start with two L1's because I'm convinced you'll be glad you did it. Good luck, Stu |
|||
|
|
|
Hi:
In my case I was recently ready to splurge on a second L1 for our duo. I really don't need a second L1 except to see if two are better than one for two (or three) musicians. I know the other half of the duo cannot afford an L1 so if another one is needed I would have to buy it. So this is the reason I would own both L1s. That, and I also had thoughts of looking to let other musicians (some friends of mine, for example) who are not in a position to purchase Bose L1s at the moment, play through two systems because I think their music would sound fantastic. I can only do that realistically if I own both systems, etc. And it's always nice to have a back-up unit...just in case. The only reason I haven't bought the second L1 up to this point is that I'm also trying to 'lighten the load' of gear that I'm hauling around, etc. Hauling around another L1 defeats what I'm trying to accomplish there. Stu |
|||
|
 |
I agree. I own the bulk of our current PA (Mackie VLZ-1604 & 2x JBL Eon 15s and several mics). Really, the only things that belong to Church (our singer/guitar player) are his guitars & amp and a few mics and mic stands. It's a good thing, too, because I originally bought them for a band I was in from '99-'02, and I already had them available when I joined my current band in 2003. I'm glad to hear that it's not a problem to mix 'n match traditional equipment with the Bose system. I actually just got a Schroeder 21012L cabinet that's only 53 pounds, and twice as loud (literally) as my Ampeg cab, so that will help a little bit. Thanks very much, ST, for putting together the Sketcher example of setups I ought to consider! I'd really like to get a couple of the towers myself, and use one of them for Church's vocal and guitar, and the other for bass & drums... Example 2 in your thread here: http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=8206048934&f=...1075854&r=8121007264 perhaps with the A1 PackLite for more low-end with the kick drum & my elec. bass and two ToneMatch engines. So, more or less, $6,600 altogether? These Bose systems really seem great, but I don't know how else to say it besides "sticker shock..." I keep telling myself, think how much you've spent on the Mackie, JBL Eons (two of them), bass cabs (I have 3 of them now), bass heads (two of them)... let's see, here, $650, $450 x2, $1k + $750 + $800, $700 + $1300... all together, $6,100. Man. If I were starting from scratch, there is no question that I'd go with the Bose system. And that's not even counting the parts of the PA that we ought to have, but we don't - sub or two, wedges (we use wired in-ears instead)... It makes perfect sense. I'd still like to try one firsthand for a show or two, at least. I've never actually even seen one of these systems in action, only read about them and watched some videos I found on YouTube. Like I said, if I were starting from scratch, it would be no contest. It's just a matter of deciding if it's worth taking a "loss" (sunk cost, I know, I know) on the PA & backline I already own vs. the advantages offered by the Bose system. I guess that's the textbook definition of value, huh? Is it worth it to me? Not right now. If I had an extra $2-4,000 to cover the difference between what I could sell my current rig for and what the Bose setup would cost, it would certainly be worth it. I'm actually in the process of starting an indie label (artist management, promotions & marketing) and this system may be a valuable business expense, if lack of a P.A. is an issue for our artists. I certainly agree with the previous poster as far as the idea that having a more manageable P.A. makes the decision to take more gigs an easier one. As an example, there is a local bar that is known for paying fairly well to bands for a decent cover set. The bar, however, lacks a P.A., so it's usually a wash as far as renting the necessary equipment and all the hassle of setting up & tearing down. I'd be down there twice a week if I had a Bose setup! Something to think about... Thanks for the input, folks. A Bose setup is on my list, it's just a matter of making it fit into our cash flow. - Dave ------------------------------------ Dave Muscato Bassist, Treasure Junkie http://www.davemuscato.com -- http://www.myspace.com/treasurejunkie http://www.treasurejunkieband.com |
|||
|
|
|
Hi Dave,
I am glad that you got back here to share your thinking.
This one?  -- click image to make changes to the live version -- There are some incentives for mulitiple purchases, but I don't know exactly how those would apply. You can call Bose and get the details for planning purposes. 1-800-905-0886 What some people do during the transition (to ease the sticker shock), is use an existing Bass rig in place of an A1 PackLite ™ Extended Bass Package (A1 + two B1 Bass Modules) . There are several ways to make the connections and you get to experiment to figure out what works best. You can read Andrew's story about how he did it. Electric Bass and the L1™ System by Andrew Douglas. Good luck with that new venture.
If consistently good sound under varying conditions is an issue ... I'll leave it at that for now. |
|||
|
 |
Dave, when you're looking at the difference between the money you'd raise selling your old equipment and what it would cost you to buy L1s, are you forgetting the van you're going to have to buy to haul the traditional gear?
Doesn't that cost much more than the $2000 or so difference? Or did you come up with another solution to hauling the stuff? |
|||
|
|
|
I had mentioned a 5-year loan for a van. It's not too difficult to get a collateralized loan on a vehicle title if it's in decent shape. A small business loan for $6k of equipment - especially if the "small business" is a band - is somewhat less straightforward.
I still would like to try a system in person (haven't done that yet, just read about them on here!). I did read Andrew Douglas' article about electric bass and using the L1. My Schroeder bass cab actually has excellent dispersion, as far as bass cabs go (it has a side-firing 12" cone in addition to 2x front-firing 10s). I might just have to look into the idea of using my current Crown K2 power amp and the Schroeder to help out the low-end, in addition to the L1s, to save some $ while we're "building up" our system. Would it be a bad idea to run the vocals, electric guitar, high & middle frequencies of the bass guitar, hi-hat, and other high & middle frequencies drum kit sounds through a single L1? I know it would better to have multiple L1s, but I, at the very least, want to have the vocals & guitar dispersed a little better. My bass cab, by virtue of its design, disperses pretty well, and our drummer plays loudly enough that he almost needs no reinforcement  (excluding the kick drum).What I'm looking to accomplish is something to replace the Mackie VLZ-1604 board and 2x JBL Eons. Right now, for most small (30-75 people) performances, we only run the vocals, hi-hat, and kick drum through them, anyway. Eventually, of course, I would like to add two more individual L1s for both me and the drummer, as well as B1s for everyone. - Dave ------------------------------------ Dave Muscato Bassist, Treasure Junkie http://www.davemuscato.com -- http://www.myspace.com/treasurejunkie http://www.treasurejunkieband.com |
|||
|
|
|
Hi Dave,
This sounds like a good way to get to know the L1™. If you keep your expectations in line with your current thinking, (interim measure), you will be fine. If you run the Kick Drum through the L1™ you will probably want at least two B1 Bass Modules. |
|||
|
|
|
Is there something up with this board? Where's my last post (that you quoted just now?) lol
- Dave ------------------------------------ Dave Muscato Bassist, Treasure Junkie http://www.davemuscato.com -- http://www.myspace.com/treasurejunkie http://www.treasurejunkieband.com |
|||
|
|
|
That sometimes happens if you edit a post, it disappears from view for a bit.
Other than that, I don't know - system hiccup? |
|||
|
 |
Hi, Dave.
Just FYI, I'm running things slightly differently at the moment...I've changed the rig that was described in that paper. I'm always willing to question my beliefs and try new things...you learn a lot that way. I scored an Ampeg SVT-DI tube direct box really cheap on ebay (I love it when people mis-categorize things), and lately have been using it with preset 63 for my Bongo instead of running through the POD. Sounds pretty darned good. Not giving up on the POD...I do love it...just experimenting. I'm still using the L1 and 4 B1s, just changing the front end a bit. Anyway, to your situation. Using one L1 as you describe will work fine. Be aware that you're going to give up one of the benefits of the L1 to a certain extent, namely localization. But given the financial situation you've got, that's a compromise that's well worth making. If I were you, I'd try to minimize the amount of stuff you're running through the L1. Don't mic the drums unless you need to, and use your ears to decide whether you should run your bass into it. It worked well for me because we had two L1s at the time I built my hybrid rig, so we weren't crowding things too badly and my bass sound was coming out of an L1 right next to me. Having said that, though, doing what you describe will work and will sound good...certainly better than what you've had in the past. You can ditch those in-ear monitors. You can amplify the kick using one of your existing speakers. So, to get started, all you need is an L1 with one B1, and a Model I will do just fine...it's a mistake IMHO to believe that everybody needs a Model II. So now you're looking at only $1999, and you can get 12-month same-as-cash financing from Bose. That's a whole lot more affordable, no? Guitar amp, miced -> Channel 1 Vox -> Channel 2 Drum mics via mixer -> Channel 3 Bass line out -> Channel 4 You really don't need three systems IMHO. The only reason my trio-plus drum machine uses them is that we all sing. Once you've got the first L1 paid off, get a second one with a Packlite and four B1s to replace your bass rig and whatever you're using to amplify the kick. You can even do an incremental upgrade before you go to the second system, by picking up a T1 and using it instead of the drum mixer. That'll give you access to cool stuff like the KickGate. ========== Bose L1(tm) Referral Specialist Bridgeport, Connecticut Contact me for a free demo adouglas (at) optonline (dot) net 203.258.7191 ========== http://www.coolshoesband.com |
|||
|
|
|
One other thing...when you mic the guitar amp, don't point it at the audience. Ideally you should isolate it somehow, so that all of the sound comes out of the L1.
It's going to be tough to convince your guitarist that this is a good idea, but at least get him to try it...put the guitar amp in another room if necessary, just to prove that it'll sound great even if it's not pointing right at him. ========== Bose L1(tm) Referral Specialist Bridgeport, Connecticut Contact me for a free demo adouglas (at) optonline (dot) net 203.258.7191 ========== http://www.coolshoesband.com |
|||
|
|
|
Unless, of course, the guitar player is a self-proclaimed "tube amp freak". The team approach perhaps will work better when you all three are used to playing with each other. These guys have played together before, but they play with everybody, too, so they are not a cohesive group. I mean, they groove okay, but the guitar player plays too loudly. I had Rob where he sounded good, but then had to turn him up to attempt to approach the level that the guitarist was playing. He's definitely an attention hog. More here: Are you a "Tube Amp Freak"? |
|||
|
| Powered by Eve Community | Page 1 2 3 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
L1® Users Forum Musicians General Forums What Do You Think of This New Approach? Thinking about getting the L1™ System|
|
|