I put my JBL EON system up for sale and the big night came for me to try out the Bose L1/PS1 and B1 Single Bass Package with my Yamaha PSR-3000 keyboard at a friend's home who owns one. I wanted to want this system so much. Turns out the owner is not even pleased with it, and especially the lack of a good manual. All of us together could never get anything much above just junk sound out of this unit or really figure how to set or work it. Admittedly, we don't know what we're doing, none of us, but is this "new approach" really so complicated and picky that long time musicians used to conventional methods can't get it to go at all? We spent a couple of hours and then just packed up. I was so excited about the concept, and I love and have faith in Bose products, but this outing was a disaster. I left feeling the same way the owner feels, not really wanting this system at all. The owner of the Bose is actually playing through another system as is his keyboard player while the Bose just stands there. They simply can't get it to sound as good as what they had. I truly wish someone could "sell" me on this system, but we feel like it may take an engineer to make it work. He wanted me to haul it home and try it but I didn't have enough interest left to even do that. I'd appreciate comments, criticisms, whatever in the form of help. I even wish I knew enough to ask an intelligent question about it, but I never came up with one. I'd sure love to hear from folks in the know about this deal. Thanks, God bless.

Hi:

quote:

"but is this "new approach" really so complicated and picky that long time musicians used to conventional methods can't get it to go at all?"

My first knowledge of the PAS was from a professional musician friend of mine who had bought one and raved about it. But my first encounter - where I could actually play through one - was similar to yours by the sounds of it.

I was invited to visit a local music store that sold (mostly) used equipment. It's where most of my prior-to-PAS sound system came from. They had a PAS on loan to them from a good friend of theirs.

Anyway, I tried it out and it sounded fantastic...but only at low volumes. I simply could not get it to sound its best at louder volumes. The folks at the store didn't know anything about it either. If I could not reproduce that 'good' sound I liked at high volumes what's the point of ponying up all the money for one I thought. But I also thought that, if my friend had his, and wouldn't shut up about how great it was, then perhaps the problem wasn't with the Bose, but was with my lack of understanding about the Bose.

It was mostly because the PAS does require a slightly different approach, an approach I obviously knew nothing about, that stopped me getting that great sound at louder volumes.

And to be honest, if anyone had told me that you have to put the thing behind you on the stage to make it work properly...I never would have been sold on it either! It made no sense. But it made no sense based on my 'traditional' understanding of how a sound system is 'supposed' to be set up and used, etc. So I well understand your frustration.

And you're right about the manual. My personal take on the manual is that it's more of a reference manual - and is ok for folks who already know how to use the PAS, and might a refresher on one or two things, etc. But a rank newbie is going to need more than just the manual in my opinion.

Because the PAS is so different with respect to the approach one must take to make it work well - and it will if you're patient - the manual really ought to come with a section on why the PAS is different, and what one must do to get the best use out of the PAS; some of the same info that is on Bose's web site that is devoted to the PAS. Some of the information is in the manual, in a very concise form, and I can see where a rank newbie might not clearly see it.

This forum is a big help to be sure but I happened upon this forum quite by accident. Had I not come across this forum - and was able to soak up all of the 'how it's done' info from many of the folks who have helped me over the last couple of months, I might well have taken it back to the store etc...or might never have taken it home in the first place!

Fortunately for me I saw a tremendous improvement...literally overnight. As though someone turned on a light switch, etc. If Bose or the Guitar Store want my PAS back they're going to have to pry it from my fingers is all I can say

Don't give up on it just yet. I'm sure that, if you're patient you'll end up coming to the same conclusion as many of us here that use the PAS...in that we'd never go back to the traditional sound system approach.

I'm hardly the expert on using the PAS but if I've learned nothing else I've learned what I believe are the following basic 'musts' to using the PAS effectively:
1. You 'must' (and I mean must) learn how to properly set the gains on the Bose (and anything else that is in the signal chain). Your traditional approach mind-set might fight you on this one. You have to give up and accept that the gains must be correctly set, and never mind what you're used to as being 'correct'.

2. You must use one of the recommended microphones, if a microphone is to be used with the PAS. The microphone we used to use in our duo never would have worked. When I bought the Bose I also bought an Audix OM5.

3. The PAS doesn't have to be as loud as you're used to hearing your current sound system. This last thing might be particularly difficult to get over, again because of the traditional mind-set about what 'should' be the way to do things. This might be especially true if there is more than one person sharing the Bose.

4. Bose recommends having the PAS about four to six feet behind you on the stage for best results. In the arena I play in (the rank amateurs) I'm lucky if I have two feet, so it is very important to learn proper placement of the PAS in relation to where you are standing, sitting, etc. Especially if you're to keep feedback at bay! And the closer you are to it, the less it sounds like it's supposed to so you have to compensate for that minor detail as well. The audience will hear a fantastic sound. You, being right on top of it, might not. Don't let that deter you. Just know that, if you have to be right on top of it when you play, if it doesn't sound quite right to you, doesn't mean the audience isn't hearing a fantastic sound.

I'm sure other, more knowledgeable people will chime in on this topic because (I'm convinced) everyone on this forum would want you to have the best experience with the PAS, so they will do, and say, what they can to help you in this respect.

Good luck,

Stu

Although I think its would be very hard to not get good sound and so easy to get good sound with this system. I would suspect a proper (usually simple) setup is what you need and someone will chime in who can help.

This system is about as plug and play as you can get, so I'm baffeled.

Thanks so much for your thoughts. I sure wish I knew more about the whats and whyfores of this myself. I really like the idea, and Bose. We just couldn't get off of square one with it. Thanks again, I need help with it very badly, obviously. Have a good day and God bless.

Your post really perplexes me, in that you find the system so hard to adjust.

It has only 4 channels, and only two channels have a very basic EQ.

The EQ is probably the easiest to figure out on any system I've used. High knob, mid knob, low knob. If you think that is complicated go work a multifrequency EQ and then we'll talk. Or better yet go out on a gig with a regular pa and 3 other band members and try to get a mix, hear your self in the monitor and get no feedback all at once.

And for most instruments you can leave everthing dead center and it will sound great, eq on this is really just for tweaking.

So, really the only thing you should have to worry about is getting the gain staging set up correctly to get the volume you want, and from there just finding the volume you like.

Further I find it almost unbelievable when you say, " we can't get anything up above junk sound, " so much so that it makes me wonder if you are just a bose hater or something, and looking to spark an argument

The reason I say the above is that I had mine up and sounding good in fifteen minutes flat for vocals. For bass and guitar all I had to do was plug them straight in.

In the past few months that I've had mine i've gone to shows and run into 3 other bose users who reported nothing but phenominal sound and ease of set up.

While I have run my own band pa in the past, I am a sound engineer by no stretch of the imagination. There are only a few things I can think of that would get you an undesirable sound out of the bose system.

1. your keyboard is a peice of crud. Sorry don't know much about keyboards so don't be offended if what you have is the latest. But, I plugged my wifes $300 best buy keyboard into it and it pretty much sounded awesome.
The system only amplifies what sounds you give it, what you put in is what you are going to get out.

2. you like things loud and are used to being blasted with the music, like a traditional pa. While this sytem will go hella loud, it doesn't blast.

3.I've also found particularly with my bass, which also might apply to keyboard bass notes, that it lacked fullness and punch until I had my gain for that channel at about 2, and the master and channel volume at 12. But, this is the same with a regular pa/amp too. it's not going to punch and get a good full tone until a certain volume level. Also, with bass notes you probably really want 2 bass modules or more.

4. you are putting someing in the signal chain before the keyboard goes into the pas. Many, many, many people on here found that by taking gadgets they thought they needed out of the signal chain, there sound improved measurably. Many things that you might need with a regular amp or pa you simply don't with this system. Try the keyboard straight in. Keyboard straight to a channel. No mixer, no compressors or noise gates or other gizmos.

5. you also didn't mention if you tried any of the pre set eq curve voiceings. That is the first thing I would have gone for if I was looking for an "it," sound. They can make a huge difference.

6. You were practiceing in very small practice area/room. I had it initially in my computer room which is about the size of a closet, and I didn't think it really was that loud or powerfull. What I didn't realize is that it wasn't blasting me and could fill a very large room with a crystal clear sound reproduction of whatever I put into it.

P.S. Please be more precise with what you term a junk sound. Does that mean hum? lack of low end? As I said earlier it is an amplification system, what you put in is what you get out.

Pon,

First of all, thanks for giving us a heads up that you're having trouble. I'm psyched that we're going to help fix this ... oh, and that's my second point, we can fix this ... no problem.

I'd like to echo some of the things said above, check the gear in your signal chain, take out as much as you can. Starting with keys connected to the L1 directly is the best way to trouble shoot this.

The #1 thing I'd like you to do is check both channels one and two and set the presets to #00. The #2 thing is get your gain staging nailed. This is important with ALL the gear you've ever owned but most people ignore it for some odd reason. To me it's like ignoring an out of tune string on a guitar ... but I digress.

#3 Make sure the B1 is connected to the AMP3/Bass jack, not the jacks in the white area. These are for a different use of the power stand.

I think you're hearing either, a wrong preset or a wrong bass module hookup (been there, done that). This is SUPER easy to fix.

While it's not impossible that your band thinks the L1 sounds bad, I can say that I've done hundreds, maybe thousands of demos and that's never been a concern sent my way. I'm confident that we've got a fix for you guys.

After doing these things the L1 should sound great. If not we'll want to dig deeper. Bad cable, bad jack, maybe it's a damaged

As Ric said, can you please give us more details on what sounds bad? Is it distorted? Is it to bright, too deep, too mid-rangey? This will help a lot.

Try the other stuff first. Again, I think this is easy to fix. Thanks for letting us help.

Steve

Thank you Ric for your time and thoughts, it is appreciated. Read again if you will, my post which clearly states "and I love and have faith in Bose products" to answer your comment "it makes me wonder if you are just a bose hater or something, and looking to spark an argument" about my hating Bose and simply wanting to argue. My line near the end "I'd appreciate comments, criticisms, whatever in the form of help" shouldn't incite anyone to say I was looking for an argument for I admitted I didn't know what I was doing and don't even know enough about this system to ask an intelligent question, so it can hardly be construed I think I know enough about this to argue. Maybe later, but not now or here. That's not my point. Though I can certainly argue if need be, it's pretty plain I'm just seeking and asking for help, that's all. I'm just trying to find a way to give this a decent try and I beg for help with the system void of personal accusations because I'd love for it to work. Had I completely given up I wouldn't be pecking away here asking folks with a common love of music to lead me down the straight and narrow.

Now, that aside, let me expound on what we had, experienced and did based on your points.

1. My keyboard, of course, is not a "piece of crud," it is not only a far cry from $300 but it sounds great with the system I have as well as every other system I've used with it. My present system has great and ample sound, it's the bulk and weight of it all I'm trying to eliminate. But my keyboard is fully capable of putting in a great sound as evidenced by the system I have and have had.

2. I do not like "blasted with the music." I'm just a keyboard player looking for a good sound. Loud does not equate always to good, whether it's a Harley motorcycle or music. Additionally, at the functions for which I play loudness is one of the better ways to be asked out or off, or at least "could you please turn it down a bit so we can visit." I'm not a rock concert guy trying to put out enough energy to run a cotton gin, I don't ask that of my present system, nor this Bose and it's not what I do.

3. On the bass we never achieved a middle ground we were willing to live with. It was either nothing or so strong as to be overwhelming and objectionable. I can adjust and get this "just right" on my present system. I'm sure this system wouldn't be getting the kudos it receives if it were not capable also, and I'm sure not saying it can't, I'm just saying we couldn't get it after a fairly extended effort by several.

4. We had no "gizmos" of any sort plugged in, or even there. My keyboard was plugged right into the Bose. We tried different channels, many EQ settings, volume etc. The owner has given up and switched back to his old system as has his keyboard player and the others. The harmonica player gave up on it also because his mic is terrible through it, so he's on another system as well since nobody knew how to get him happy with it. One of the other posts helpfully explained about the mic deal.

5. We did try a number of the presets. We tried the keyboard settings, but it included such a few that my Yamaha wasn't on it, and we never hit the right combination there.

6. Now here you may have me, we were in a very small room, low ceiling and the stack nearly touched. Another post mentioned being close to the unit may mislead you, although it was behind me about four feet, so this could be a valid point for you.

As you don't know what I mean by junk, I guess I don't know your definition of "precise." I used the term "junk" for want of trying to describe our experience, so let me add it was just poor sound, and you can believe me when I tell you I've been around long enough to know the difference. None of us, the owner included, knows how to get a good sound with this system, but when and if we do, I'll know it. Maybe if I add it was "tinny", no depth or substance, that would help. Then there were feedback problems when we tried a mic in it although he was about ten feet from it. When nothing was being played at all it sat there with a noticeable "hiss" coming from the speakers. It also had a hum that the owner had tried to rectify by plugging into different receptacles on different circuits of his house wiring. As I stated, the harmonica player gave up quite some time ago due to his mic. I don't know what kind of he has but he's proud of it as it's an expensive and good mic he's had a long time and is able to use very effectively everywhere else. One of the other helpful posts mentioned this about mics though, so apparently you don't just go plug anything you want into this.

I appreciate your helping me at all for it is appreciated. Sir, we're just trying to play some good sounding music and possibly have a system that's easier to move about. I'm not rock, rap, disco or anything even close to any of that. I'm private keyboard gigs mostly with some public sprinkled in and I've been doing it well over fifty years. You say the sound will be no better than that put in, but I'd have to difffer there as well as add it'll be no better than we can learn to operate this thing also, if we can at all. As for your "what you put in is what you get out," of course if that were literally true I'd have no interest at all, and I'd keep my money. Good sound systems should and do enhance sound "put in" as well as the plain amplification of same. I'm putting in softer music hoping for something a little louder for the audience with some enhancement along the way as well. Why else even spend the money? This my old big system does well also.

I'm sure I've a lot for which to look forward and I'm eager to keep trying because I'm sure as in the case of the other Bose products I have, Bose is onto something here. I just hope I can join in and sing its praises one day instead of writing stuff like this, but I need good thoughtful help from folks that know since as it comes it's nearly devoid of help.

What we ended up with was unacceptable, which was that due to the sound, or lack of it, I was the only one even willing to still try the Bose since the other keyboard player, two guitars, a harmonica and two other mics had all gone back into the Peavey and Fender type rigs they already had. At one point I just unplugged and went with the speakers on the keyboard and we got along about as well.

Most in the room just ended up looking at it and wondering what to do. The owner was saying he sure wished he had tried one before he bought and the likes as he's not on one of those 'send it back' deals. My thoughts went to some of the reviews I've read, and some of them mentioned a Bose engineer going along with the demonstrations. We would have welcomed one with open arms.

Have a good day, thanks, and God bless.

Hello Steve-at-Bose,

Thank you so much! Now we're getting somewhere, something concrete to do and try in lieu of a personal reference I got, but there've been other good equipment pointers also I appreciate.

Maybe I wish I had brought the system home to try for myself, with your splendid help, because I don't really know how the owner had it connected, I can't answer any of that, and it was in a pitifully small room in another town. I assumed he had it connected right but I certainly don't know, in all fairness. As for damage, it should could be. I don't know how old it is, where it came from or anything along those lines. I'm not getting down on the system at all, it's got to be good, but I am down on our ability so far to get happy with it as it is.

Let me see if I can get back to it and check those things, but it is in another town. Steve I'm convinced the trouble here is our ignorance and Not with Bose. Bose didn't get where they are today building stuff that doesn't work and I absolutely love the other Bose products I have. I want to be friends with this thing, then get one, for I think it'll fill my needs better than the conglomerate of stuff I'm hauling now. Thanks again so much! This is good meaningful help I (obviously) need. Have a good day and God bless.

Hello Pon ,
Great to have you come on the forum for advice . When I first bought a PAS , I visited this forum before every gig for pointers .
There are a lot of experienced PAS users that have owned and have been using this system since day one.
One problem which may be throwing you is if the Preset chart on your powerstand is not correct . I purchased a PS1 with a Version 2 preset list , but actually had an earlier version installed . I was disappointed as well , because I would dial in a preset for a certain mic (SM58) and it sounded aweful . I went on the Bose website and printed out the preset list for the earlier version just on a whim and thats when the sound came together .
This maybe something to check .
Thanks again for visiting this forum - J.D.

Pon, where are you located? I'm confident we can get you to good sound here on the forum, but if not, there are a number of Assisted-Direct Product Reps around the country who could help you onsite if you're near any of them.

Thank y'all so much, <J.D.> and Mr. Tom Munch. Where my first encounter with this product was so discouraging, I'm sure due to my ignorance about it, the help I'm getting via this forum is most Encouraging. <J.D.> that preset list is something I'll sure check for we fooled with that quite a bit, thank you for that suggestion. Mr. Tom, I'm in a small northern Louisiana town not all that far from Monroe. If I can't get the thing cornered this way I'll certainly seek that help. From the folks that are using this and loving it, as well as the Bose name, t'would seem a shame to just walk away from it without giving it the best shot I can. Y'all are giving me some good spots for aim. Thanks to all of you again for your help.

quote:

Then there were feedback problems when we tried a mic in it although he was about ten feet from it. When nothing was being played at all it sat there with a noticeable "hiss" coming from the speakers. It also had a hum that the owner had tried to rectify by plugging into different receptacles on different circuits of his house wiring. As I stated, the harmonica player gave up quite some time ago due to his mic. I don't know what kind of he has but he's proud of it as it's an expensive and good mic he's had a long time and is able to use very effectively everywhere else. One of the other helpful posts mentioned this about mics though, so apparently you don't just go plug anything you want into this.

After you learn gain staging, and mic placement feedback should be a thing of the past. I'm running a sm58 into at a really loud volume, for vocals, and an only 8-10 feet away at any time.

The hiss is normal, most users hear it at about noon on the system. You will get this with just about any other system as well in my experience. It's also something that you won't notice when playing. If the hiss is at a much lower volume there may be problem.

I took the first one I had back because it had a hum, and got a replacement. But, now I think it may have just been line noise because my house has bad wiring and aplliances are running all day. Get a power conditioner. I experience no line noise in the second one. then again it could need repair if there is a hum at your place as well.

Bose is great about repairing things.

I'm sorry if my first post was a tad confrontational. It's just that the people here have been so great helping me with my little problems it's unbelievable.

And we have had one or two incidents of people coming on here looking to make trouble, but acting as if they want help.

do a search on my posts. You will see that my first few were all technical things I needed help with, and that all my problems were fixed in no time flat.

This forum is perhaps the best customer service for any product I'v ever bought.

I'm sure that if you give it some work you can get the bose system to work for you. I went from a regular pa to the bose and I simply refuse to play through anything else anymore.

Pon, the only thing I'll offer here is that my first couple of times out with the PAS were less than perfect. I now have the 'feel' down (like driving a car or playing a guitar if you get my drift) and can kind of understand the approach I need to take for MY sound. Obviously, my sound may not be what you're looking for but this system works great for me and I'm glad I've stuck with it.

Wayne

Ric, you're a good man, I appreciate your help and time, no problems. I understand you never know about the other guy, but when you do you'll know I'm just one of God's children too that's trying to make it, with His help of course. I have faith I can join the force with accolades in time. I'm much more comfortable being for things than 'agin' them. I'm no guru for sure but I didn't fall That hard off the turnip truck either, this is just so different from anything I've ever fooled with before. I sure agree with you about this forum, it's great and has already helped me a bunch. Like you, I've not seen a better, more friendly or expertly helpful one. The folks that come on are confident, knowledgeable and very helpful. I just wish I were close to the unit where I could go and do as it is suggested. If I had to bet, I wouldn't bet against this thing. I know Bose too well for that.

Captbanjo thank you so much also. I'm comforted a little by realizing more people than just me have had to kind of come to know this system. Thank all of you again for your splendid help. We'll make it somehow. Have good days and God bless.

Ok! Pon,
The voices have spoken! And more will speak.
You mentioned that you really wanted "The Bose"
to work. The question before you know is do yuo choose to make it work. If you do the Pas will work for you wonderfully! The help you need is right here. It's up to you now !

Thank you so much <big AL>! You can bet I want it to work! Else I'd have just walked off because I haven't bought it yet. And the voices speaking are most encouraging. I'll be on with what I have to do you can be sure. This Pas has some very appealing attributes to me, and thanks to this great help we'll learn to get along. Thanks to you all, have a good day, thanks, and God bless.

Pon,
Your very welcome! You'll be fine! And the PAS is wonderful! AL...

Pon:

As I think about the various problems people have had with "getting started" with the Bose system, I might characterize them as falling into one of three categories:

1) Improper gain staging.
2) Connecting cables into the wrong place.
3) Bad Bose equipment.

#3 can be the easiest to take care of, thanks to the great Bose support team, but that's also perhaps the least likely to be the problem.

#1 is conceptually the most difficult ... that's what many folks referred to above.

#2 is pretty easy to do wrong ... and real easy to fix, once you realize it. Even experienced folks occassionaly plug things in wrong! For the help with this problem, start by carefully looking at the labels around each connection on the Bose PS/1, and refer to the helpful pictures on this forum. In particular, follow this link to one of ST's sections of the unofficial performer's guide, and scroll down to the 10th "reply" in that thread. There is a nice diagram which shows what to connect to which input.

For example, one of the most common sources of "bad sound" is plugging a 1/4" cable into the "INSERT" hole on the PS/1 Channel 1 or Channel 2, instead of plugging it into the middle of the larger, black "XLR" connector at the far edge of that Channel.

Once you do get the right connections figured out, then the picture in preventing incorrect connections shows how some little plastic plugs can prevent incorrect connections in the future.

Dan, I need to add one to your list. One that I personally think plays a huge role in the early stages of the transition to the Bose System.

4) Shedding old habits. After decades of hearing what we were told things were supposed to sound like, and adding piles of rack processors, compressors, effects units, sonic maximizers and what have you to make it sound even more...phony... it's hard to undo all that overnight and accept the "new" sound. Sometimes the problems are simply that we're hearing something different - and we expect it to sound more like our "old system". It does take a few times around with the Bose to accept the new sound for what it is.

I may have missed an earlier reference but small rooms can be less than spectacular for the L1.

The L1 was designed using the physics of a cylindrical radiator loudspeaker to fill a small to medium _venue_ evenly so that the volume is similar front to back. This is done by reducing the dropoff in sound relative to traditional loudspeakers. Therefore it is most impressive as you move further away.

I said that to say this: I am not an audio engineer but I am suspicious that in small rooms the reflections off walls are so similar in SPL to the original sound that they may be cancelling due to comb filtering and phase inversion. The louder you turn it up the more the waves "fight".

For all you engineer types: is this possible?

...Mark (a bass guitarist with other sundry skills)