Dear All..

I would like to ask if you know any venues that have installed the L1 system as a permanent system instead of a triple system...

Here in Greece we are in a discussion with an owner to put some L1's (about 8) to cover the needs of the venue (300 people capacity) for live performances.

Also, in two performances where I tryed the system, everything was PERFECT except of the vocals.
I tryed to adjust trim and the zEq to avoid feedback but I didn't get much improvement. I could tern down the volume from the rest of the band to get a better balance between instruments and vocals, but this is not always good.

Any ideas to get more volume for the vocals?
Using 2 systems for main vocalist is a thought but it is critical to get phase cancelations especialy when the stage is small (4mX5m let's say for 6 piece band).

regards,

Alex

Hi:

I have heard, on more than one occasion, that a chain restaurant (supposedly owned by Jimmy Buffet) called "Cheeseburger in Paradise" (we have one where I live) is supposed to have one or two L1's in each restaurant, that they provide for the local talent that performs there on occasion.

I had also heard that the reason that L1's were selected was that someone (JB maybe?) had heard the L1's and had decided that they would be the best for their on-stage sound requirements because they had superior sound quality, small footprint and were real simple to use - important criteria for people performing on a small stage area who either don't own, or can't bring, their own sound system, and who might not familiar with the house system, etc.

The L1's are not permanently installed, technically speaking. They are just there sitting on the stage; set up (with microphones, etc) ready to go and available for the talent. But I would assume that because they are there, there won't be any of the three-tier systems permitted.

I have not yet gone into the restaurant in my town so cannot say 100% that L1's are on the stage there. Everything I've said here is word-of-mouth only, but I've heard it said on several unrelated occasions, which is why I mention it.

Other than someone posting on this forum fairly recently, about installing one or two L1's as their sound system (somewhere in France, I think) this is the only example I've ever heard of but I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that others have done it, or are considering it.

quote:

"Any ideas to get more volume for the vocals?"

Depending on where the microphones are positioned relative to the L1's, you might have to readjust the setting of the gain staging on the vocal channel(s) to a setting which will require you to get right on the microphone (eat the mic)...and maybe use one of the selected "Bose-recommended" microphones, such as the Audix OM5. Also, try turning down the vocal channel's High EQ knob on the remote a little. Maybe check out some of the other presets as well.

Another way might be to use one of the recommended headworn microphones. The one I use (Crown CM311A) allows me to be very loud and not have feedback issues. If I turn my L1 up really loud my headset microphone is usually the last thing to cause feedback problems.

Good luck,

Stu

Hi Alex,

quote:

Originally posted by Alex-at-AGGPro-Greece:
...
Also, in two performances where I tried the system, everything was PERFECT except of the vocals.
I tryed to adjust trim and the zEq to avoid feedback but I didn't get much improvement. I could tern down the volume from the rest of the band to get a better balance between instruments and vocals, but this is not always good.

If the vocals are the most important aspect of the music, then you have to set you volume for the vocals, and bring up the instruments to support them.

quote:

Any ideas to get more volume for the vocals?

It sounds too simple, but it really is. The rest is in the arrangements. The band can come up when the vocals are not present, and then the band can lower their volume again when it is time for the vocals to command the performance.

quote:

Using 2 systems for main vocalist is a thought but it is critical to get phase cancellations especially when the stage is small (4mX5m let's say for 6 piece band).

regards,

Alex

For any source like the vocals, you will probably gain only 3 dB SPL by running that source through two L1™s instead of one. In other words, there is not much to be gained.

The guideline for minimum distance between L1™s with the same source is 6-15 meters (same as MA12). This applies to both Model I and Model II.

Notes: Phase Cancellation

Hi ST and StuartD !!

Thanx both for the reply.

The venue will have various bands from Greece and Europe throught out the year in a regular basis. I think I will have the chance for a lot of experimentation during setup.
Also, we will have to convict the sound engineers that L1 is not here to steal their jobs....but that's another story.

I guess 3dB is not much to get. I agree to start with the vocals and then gain up the rest of the band.
Another thing it can be done is to put a "little" delay from T1 (calculation according to the distance between the systems and not be noticable) between the two L1's that have the same signal to avoid phase cancellation- I will try that.

StuartD, I can't really change the microphones that the musicians use. Each band sent their technical rider and vocalists want some specific mic (SM58 for instance or else).

To "eat" the mic is something that musicians have to practice since each one has his own style of singing and you can't really tell him to change his attitudes during performace for the 10-15 days they will be performing in Greece...

Well, I will find the way out and let you know when setup is finished.

Thanks both for the advises!!!

Alex

Hi Alex,

quote:

Another thing it can be done is to put a "little" delay from T1 (calculation according to the distance between the systems and not be noticable) between the two L1's that have the same signal to avoid phase cancellation- I will try that.

Just a guess. Would you set the delay to approximately

20ms - 1 ms for each foot between the L1™s?

For example, if the L1™s are 8 feet apart, would you set the delay to

20 - 8 = 12 ms

??

I am using 20 as the starting figure based on the minimum recommended separation at 6 meters ≈ 20 feet.

Assuming that sound travels approximately 1 foot per millisecond, 20 - distance between the L1™s should simulate the 20 foot minimum.

When you set the Digital Delay, will you set the Fdbk (Feedback) to 0?

Anyway - just thinking out loud.

Please let us know if this works for you.

Something like that...

I beleive that about 10-15ms will work if placed 4m apart.
Stage dimension does not have enough space for 6-12m separation.
Feedback probably set to 0 since I don't actually want the delay effect to be noticable.

I still have to try this. I will post a sketch to the forum soon.
We'll be in touch....

Have a nice weekend.

Alex

Hi Alex,

I tried some experiments with this, but I really need someone else to do the vocals while I manipulate the settings.

When I try to do the vocals with the T1™s beside me and a distance greater than about 6-7 meters, I start to hear comb filtering. I think this is from the natural delay between hearing my own voice immediately and hearing it at a distance with the L1™s. This is makes it pretty hard to hear what might be happening as a result of the delay in the T1™.

I wonder if you will have a loss of Localization (link is to an article in the wiki) if you send the Vocal to two L1™s. I expect that you will, and I wonder if this outweighs the benefit of the 3 dB SPL that you might get. I wonder too, if applying the delay will diminish the 3 dB SPL gain.

Please let us know what you learn from your experiments.

Thanks.

And you have a nice weekend too.

Hi, Alex:

Another approach to dealing with vocal mic's and tendency to feedback (with the L1's):
-- Increase the distance by sending the vocalist's mic to an L1 a little further away, rather than the nearest L1. If you get too extreme about that, you may run into the issue ST raised about the delay (for the vocalist) between the L1 sound and their own voice in their head.

I presume you have the vocal mics using the presets; if, not, that'll make a real difference in the apparent "headroom before feedback". Just be sure the instruments are NOT unintentionally using the vocal mic presets!

My guess is the biggest adjustment for performers will be to get used to a lower stage volume than they have at other (non-Bose) venues. Perhaps each group needs, as part of their "setup" time, to first listen to a recording (preferably a recording of themselves!) while walking in the audience area, then to walk onto the stage and hear how loud it is (that is, how loud it ISN'T) on the stage. That will would hopefully help them to re-calibrate their ears so they don't try to play too loud on-stage ... and thus can let the vocal volume carry.

One other item, which I presume you've considered, is acoustical treatment of the venue. If music is important to the venue, there may be some architectural features which can be tweaked to improve the overall acoustic response of the venue (e.g.: to make it more uniform) irrespective of any use of the L1's (treatments such as bass traps, or adding/subtracting sound-reflecting or sound-absorbing surfaces). A single L1 with 2 B1's can be an ideal "test source" for evaluating the room response and the effects of any "sound treatment".

Hi Alex,

I don't think that adding a second L1 for vocals is going to help very much, as has already been mentioned. I also think that adding a delay is unlikely to change the situation except by small amounts.

Fundamentally, if a band wants to play louder than the musician can sing, there's not much that can be done. Note that this is true in unamplified performances too.

If the L1 system wasn't loud enough on vocals, that would be a problem. But with the exception of REALLY LOUD BANDS -- the kind that hurt your ears, that is not the case. With good stage microphone technique (almost any touring band already has it) the vocals can be really loud.

The trouble I see is that it is possible for the other musicians to play much louder: acoustic drums, electric bass amps, and guitar amps are by far the biggest offenders.

To me, there's only one solution to this. They can not bury the vocalist. They must listen to him or her and say "Can I hear him/her? If not, I have to turn down, or not play."

I think one reason the L1 system has done so well is that the people purchasing it understand this and they WANT to play better. They know that FINALLY they can hear everything -- AND EVEN BETTER -- they know that their audiences are hearing the same mix. So if they put the time into making their music better -- including not burying the singer -- then EVERYBODY IN THE ROOM gets rewarded. This is nothing short of revolutionary and it happens ALL THE TIME.

Can that be done with musical acts that are blowing through town and just want to have a "normal" gig and move on? I don't know. But it is a totally different challenge than the musician that WANTS to change. One thing I am confident of: 3 of vocal level is not going to determine whether your effort is successful or not. I think the answer lies in the attitude of the players on stage and the people who own and book the venue, and not in the gear.

With best regards,

Ken

Dear Ken and ST,

Thank you both for your time to post comments.

The L1's where installed and played with great success in two live performances with a Greek famous singer Eleni Peta and her band. All musicians found it as "the best stage sound" they ever had...
6 systems where used on stage. Most of the instruments where acoustic without pic-ups. A lot of mics used but we had no feedback problems.
Mics used: SM58, SM57, AKG451, D112, SM58Beta, Neumann KK105.
Instruments: Female main vocalist, Grand Piano, Upright Bass, Violin, Chelo, Bandoneon, Classical and Electric Guitar.

Beacause the sound engineer of the band wanted to have full control of the gain of the band, all the instruments, mics, vocals etc where plugged on a stage box, from there to FOH on a Yamaha M7CL digital desk. 6 Aux sends from the desk where the inputs of 6 T1 respectively.
I know that by this we don't take full advantage of the T1's but still the reverb and EQ was used from the T1's for the L1's.

The use of the Aux send was convinient in one case, where the Piano player (acoustic grand piano) siting at the far back left side of the stage could't hear very much the violin that was siting at the far front right of the stage. (although all the L1's where placed at the back of the stage) In this case we added to the aux send of the piano a litle bit of the violin as well.

Voice was superb! I ended using just one L1 with a Neumann wireless KK105 (Sennheiser SKM 5000 body). It doesn't worth dealing with two systems. Unfortunately I didn't try 2 systems with delay-line to see what will happen. I will do this experiment soon I hope just to find out. I think that when two sources radiate the same waveform at slightly different time, the waves don't cancel out.
"At the end of the day" there is no need to use a setup like this when using L1's. No need to spend time adjusting the delay and position of the L1's just to get 3dB gain...

Ken, you are wright on what you say about musicians attitude and how they perform on stage. But when a band comes in a venue for 2-3 performances I don't expect them to immediatly go on and play with the L1 and forget how they used to perform on stage the last 20, 30, 40 years. It is also a matter of character if the musician is "open minded", ready to try out a "new" approach.

Well, so far the people who have played with L1 in Greece liked it very much and they quickly got used to it.
Some other bands I was talking to, about another venue, they didn't even want to try the system.
To bad for them..

Thanks for all.

Best regards,

Alex

(p.s. photos will be posted soon)

quote:

Originally posted by Alex-at-AGGPro-Greece:
...6 systems where used on stage.... all the instruments, mics, vocals etc where plugged on a stage box, from there to FOH on a Yamaha M7CL digital desk. 6 Aux sends from the desk where the inputs of 6 T1 respectively...

Given the number of channels on that mixer (16 mix buses and output channels!), you might want to have a "standard" configuration using two Aux channels per T1/L1 (e.g.: 1 for vocal, 1 for instrument) for those times where you have more than 6 mics and instruments in total ... and for when you want a single performer's instrument and voice coming from the same L1.

Hi Alex,

I think we do somethings the same - I like providing sound for other bands. (But not on as big a scale as you... I only use 3 L1s ) -

I run into the same thing - that some vocalists have a particular style and will not "eat the mike".

Sometimes I give the performing artist control - I really like when the lightbulb goes on and they make some adjustment themselves.

I find some artists like the idea of control, and some see it as an extra burden that they want to leave to a sound guy. (Leaving it to the sound guy still means that they ask for changes in tone, volume, or balance between instruments).

One guitar player is a joy to work with - keeps his amp quiet, mikes his amp, and likes the sound through the L1, Another guitarist was very difficult - aimed his amp (loud) at his own knees (and continuing to the piano players head), complained that the piano was too loud, complained that he couldn't hear himself even though he overpowering everyone else.

I think hearing ourselves in the L1s is kind of an acquired taste, and some artists used to only hearing themself think they need more and more volume to try to have the same stage sound they are used to (only hearing themself).

(I've stood next to a guitarist, and heard him clearly, while he complained about not hearing himself in the mix - so we moved his amp where he wanted - gave him the sound he was used to, and miked it, putting just a little in the L1 - since his own amp was so loud)

I play guitar and I think there is some acquired listening thing - I easily hear the guitar part, even when my wife doesn't - but she plays fiddle and mandolin, and can more easily distinguish those parts -- Strange isn't it?


One problem I have that you luckily don't need to deal with is changing venues - some without the stage depth to use the Bose system at its best.

I hope you will share your experiences and pictures. Thanks for joining us.


Jim Mead

Sorry about the picture I send before. I didn't notice it was to large..

I want to post some from the pesentation (I resized them).
How can I post more than one picture? I think I saw somewhere else this question on the forum but I can't find it now.

regards,

Alex

Hi Alex,

The easiest thing to do is post one picture per post. The message board software doesn't allow more than one attachment per post.

You could do a photo gallery, but it makes it difficult to view quickly, or to scroll up and down and see several pictures at a time.