Mentioning Bose at a pro sound or audiofile forum can be like throwing chum into shark infested waters.
There is a long running thread at one of the pro sound forums regarding the L1. The following 2 posts were taken from that thread.
The difference appears to be that these two guys have ACTUALLY used or heard Bose products.

Robert L

1.
I am certainly not one to defend or apologize for Bose, but you people are missing some valuable lessons being taught here.

Bose has successfully cultivated an image of quality, as well as the concept that quality comes at a price. They spend money targeting the people who buy their products, not the people who don't.

The Bose "stick" has a very well defined target, and that target is certainly not the regional sound provider or even the local ankle biter. They are made for the guy who wants to do gigs, and not worry about "complicated" audio systems.

Are there uncomplicted audio systems that sound better than the Bose for the same price? Sure there are. There are also better sounding line arrays than the JBL 4880, but I sure see an awful lot of 'em out there.

Bose is filling a niche. Apparently, the niche has some money to spend.

Is any of this sinking in?

FWIW, back in the mid-80's, I was making a lot of money mixing 'society' gigs, (wearing a coat and tie no less) on Bose 802s while my pals were out gigging with the Hair Farmer bands of the era. Dr. Bose, my hearing thanks you!

I'd be interested in how many of you that commented on the "sound" of the Bose product have actually heard it.


2.
Amen to that, Dave.
For all the bad publicity the 800 series got when they first came out, they were about the only true small size cabinet that any manufacturer was willing to produce to meet the sound reinforcement market. I did gigs of up to 1000 with 4 of them, and mixed in a house that had 2 of them for seating of about 475. While I think there are a good many better sounding cabinets out there, there are very few that can compete for size, weight, and overall price.
Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not a Bose fan. But they are a tool that at least will WORK. If all cabinet manufacturers would redirect engineering efforts toward smaller, lighter, and reliable boxes that sound good.. we would definitely have a different ball game than we do now..

Hi:

quote:

Are there uncomplicted audio systems that sound better than the Bose for the same price? Sure there are.

I won't profess to have investigated every sound system out there, but during the year it took me to build up the nerve to spend 2k on an L1 I didn't see any other 'non-complicated' sound systems for less money than the L1 - that sounded better than the L1.

The L1 takes the trophy with respect to non-complicated as far as I'm concerned.

Which ones do you suppose this inidiviual is referring to?

And though not directly Bose equipment related, I was at a concert at the Whitaker Center (Harrisburg, PA) last thursday. This venue has one of the best sound systems I've heard anywhere. Consistently fantastic. Uncomplicated it is not. Inexpensive it is not. It's not a Bose system I don't believe. It has some high-end-looking digital mixing board.

I've always hoped to show up to this venue and see several L1s on stage. It hasn't happened yet, but I hope to see it one day. I'd sure like to hear what the L1 sounds like at this venue.

But even though it was not Bose equipment I still got a bit of a chuckle when, approximately 20 seconds into his first number, Leo Kottke asked if the volume could be turned down!

I've always wondered what Leo Kottke would sound like playing through an L1!

Stu

Hello Robert,

As a longstanding member of this community, have you been able to contribute to the discussion you site? It would seem that your background as both an experienced musician and a professional sound engineer would make you uniquely qualified to commnent in that forum.

If you have, or are willing to do this, we'd love to see your contribution to that conversation over here.

With best regards,

Ken

I think what some may view as a niche, Bose may view as a crevasse. It may take some time to fill but they are in for the long run.

O

Here in the Philippines, it's the same. Those that criticize Bose, either 1. have never heard the product... or 2. are employees for rival brands.

The JBL VRX is the closest rival I've heard to the L1... and it costs 2x as much... WITHOUT the amps yet... and will take 3 guys to set the thing up.

I too am wondering what system sounds better than the L1 and is uncomplicated. Especially when you consider that there may be a sound system that sounds as good when you are in the perfect spot for sound, but if you are even 10 deg off axis, you loose quality.

I have not heard anything that sounds as good everywhere in the audience.

The thing is a good portion of posters on audio forums are also what I call, "wanna be engineers," or, "specification geeks." And they simply will say that what the bose does is not possible because of some formula which they don't understand, but proceed to explain to you.

If you say you experienced it your self, like I did, then they will call you a liar or a fanboy. This is exactly what happened to me when I stated that I use my system for a rock band in small to mid sized clubs.

I was told that there was no way the L1 would have enough ooooomph or bass for any mid sized rock club. Keep in mind I'm older 35 now. And have been in bands since I was 15. I know what's loud enough and what's not. My L1 can drown out an unmiced acoustic drum kit without being fully cranked.

If that aint loud enough............

Also, for some strange reason, a lot of audio type people take great offence to the things the bose can do and how it markets those qualities. they don't like the fact that the marketing points out everything that is wrong with the usual tripple system approach.

The momment you post what you can do with your L1 you will get someone posting something like, "ya so what I can do that with my regular system." (I'm sorry but in the whole time I've owned my L1 I have not heard one show with a regular PA that sounded better than what the L1 can do, louder yes, but not better)

I don't think you can really get it, unless you try the L1 for a while and get re trained to accept that music does not have to be extremely loud to spread well, and it doesn't have to have frequency ranges changed in unnnatural ways.

Sure there are the people who will listen, but there are the others who will jump right in and try to make it off like the L1 only works for low volume solo/acoustic music, and or there is no way it covers like it does.

They will argue this no matter how many gigs you tell them you used it at or how many people told you it sounded great compared to the usual pa.

I had one guy tell me that I was fooling my self because I didn't whip out a soundmeter. As if my ears can't tell loud enough from not loud enough 30' away.

Anyways, this is probably what you can expect as a response, especially if you tell them you replaced your old PA with it and like the L1 better. Run for the hills if your old PA is the same one they love.

Poetic, Ric.

PLUS: "fanboy": What a fantastic noun, new to me, made my day. Is it your original? (if so, we're not worthy)

Rock on.

No, I didn't make it up. Heard it used to describe people who are overzealous about something no matter how it performs compared to other things. Even had it used to describe me after posting my reactions to the L1.

I was just going through some old band photos to update our website, and was shockingly reminded of how stressful our old sound system used to be. It's been nearly three years since my band became an all L1 band. And we certainly had our share of trials and tribulations during our settling in period. I know that we say the words all the time of how much easier and better our performing lives are now - but looking at these old photos was such a harsh reminder of the reality of it. They really made me think back.

These "pro sound" engineers that complain constantly about Bose (and just about everything else for that matter) do it for a reason. I know, because I had the same mindset for a decade leading up to my Bose switch. Bigger. Louder. More. Louder. More watts. More cabinets. Louder. More processing gear. Louder.

Most of them have never heard the L1, and are just following the herd about Bose specs, and all the cute little cliches of no highs, no lows (could someone at least come up with something original, please?). And the few that have heard the system expect it to sound like their big "concert" systems. They just don't get the fact that "THAT" sound is exactly what we're all trying to get AWAY from. The brass ring for a soundman is to get the big gig. Running sound for the Stones or U2 at giant stadiums. That's the guy they all wannabe. So they base everything on that. Bigger. Louder. More. And you know what, someone's gotta do it, because there are plenty of big concerts in giant stadiums that need to be filled with sound.

But the problem starts when that mentality is brought into smaller rooms. Like I said - I know because I did the same thing. Looking at those old photos made me realize what a ridiculous caricature of ourselves we had become. Huge stacks of cabinets on either side of the stage, monitors everywhere, a half dozen racks of power amps and processing gear, thousands and thousands of watts of power, cabling, snakes, light trusses, getting to the venue four hours early to set up and sound check. And with that many variables in our setup, you could almost always guarantee a glitch somewhere at EVERY gig. A ground loop hum. Monitor 6 isn't working. The second sub on the right side is out. The lights are throwing the breaker. On and on. Just the trunks of extra-backup-just in case stuff that we brought along could fill a van. And all this for 300 seat clubs. Ridiculous. And we (or at least I) told ourselves we brought all this stuff for quality, not for volume. And we believed it. We thought we were Pink Floyd.

Even if we were sacrificing a little sound quality for the ease of set up and lack of stress by using the L1 I would still do it. But our quality has improved. It certainly took some getting used to - remember, I was one of "them" and wanted to hear "that" sound. With our old system, we were constantly being asked to turn down. We have never once been asked to turn down our L1's... or turn UP for that matter. All we get is nonstop compliments on the sound. Just good natural sound at a pleasant volume. Not artificial exaggerated sound at ear bleeding levels. And out of all the gigs we've played with our L1's, I could count on one hand (and still have fingers left over) the amount of technical issues we've had. No more sound checks. Consistently the same sound night to night, room to room, gig after gig. Do we sound like the Stones at Madison Square Garden? No - thankfully. We sound much better.

But the real bottom line is that we are having FUN playing again. This product was intended for MUSICIANS. Not sound men. There's a lot of stuff that "they" don't get about the L1. But the biggest thing is that it's NOT a PA system. It has never been marketed as such, and Bose has made every conceivable effort to educate the public of its intention as a PERSONALIZED system for MUSICIANS. The true appreciation of the L1 can only come from the performer on the stage. The radical improvement over traditional monitors. The ability to hear and interact with other musicians like never before. The confidence to know that you are controlling your own sound, your own volume, your own dynamics... and are hearing the same thing the audience hears. Combined with the ease of setup, ease of use and lack of stress design, it brings creative performance to a whole new level. Trying to get a soundman to understand that is like trying to get the guy that does lighting at the museum to understand the artist's delight over a new color being invented.

I doubt that you see too many "real" pro engineers - the guy that they all wannabe - wasting time on these issues. They have nothing to worry about, and the L1 doesn't really concern them. And if it did, they would handle it in a professional manner, and judge it by its merits. There will always be a need for good professional sound engineers and their big loud equipment in concert settings at large venues. But not at smaller rooms. Not anymore.

So who are the fanbois?

(alternate spelling was amusing to me)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanboy

gittar-jonz


just doing a fly-by


truly well said.

Ah, ST: That would be pronounced "fan-bwah". Pardon my French.

... how I got to Bose ...

About 4 or 5 years ago, around March, I saw the Eagles in the opening concert at the then-new American Airlines Center arena in Dallas. Their sound system was very different than anything I'd seen, and sounded very clean, bright, and the bass was good but not muddy and overpowering like at so many concerts. Instead of the huge twin towers of 20 foot wide by 60 foot tall stacks of speakers on both sides of the stage, they had this odd array of modern looking cabinets hung ABOVE the stage, arranged in about a quarter-circle pointing out and down. There were similar arrays on the two sides too, but also elevated and circular. I noted the logo was Infinity, what I had at home. My thought at the time was "This sounds great! Maybe there's a junior version of this for wannabes like me...". Our Rivers West band was just getting started, playing with Acoustisonic Juniors and a tiny PA. I wanted crystal-clear sound in as a small a package as possible.

My initial research blew right by Infinity and landed on the Bose Panaray line - 802's, MB4's, amps. Looked cool. I literally planned this thing out for almost a YEAR - color-coded spreadsheets, proposed channel usage of different mixers, and probable overspending of my year-end bonus allocation to my music fix. I was in the 12 to 15 grand range, and it didn't even include monitors - I guess I just hoped we'd be able to hear from the "mains".

Then, THANK MY STARS, about October or November I saw a thing about this revolutionary new Personalized Amplification System! Not exactly what the Eagles were blowing through, but THIS was the ticket for our league. A good friend and I both got our systems during the week in December, when Guitar Center first got them in, and we played a gig with them that weekend. A little while later another bud got his own system, and some months later we got another one, and we've been all Bose ever since, probably 200 gigs or so. We struggled with a mixer through playing through one, then two, and finally one-per-guy, the way life's supposed to be!

So all this yacking about "Model II" is too expensive... that's just noise to me that I'm NOT hearing!

So - Cliff, Ken, Chris, Eve, and ALL the other Bose guys (that I have not had direct contact with) - THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

This may be not completely on-topic, but this thread got me thinking about how I got here, sorry.

MIKE

Remember not to smack their teddy bear.

I learned this along time ago in Sales. If you insult the competition, you may be smacking their teddy bear, and will loose a customer right then.

Better to build up your own product without tearing theirs down.

quote:

This product was intended for MUSICIANS. Not sound men.

Gittar-jonz,
Thanks for getting us back to the real reason we are all here on this forum. This product was, and continues to be, designed with us in mind. The Live Music division has dedicated themselves to making these systems everything we would ever want or need as performing musicians.

Bose Corporation sells great equipment for soundmen, let them worship and/or trash those systems to their heart's content. The L1 system really doesn't, and shouldn't, concern them.

"Smacking their teddy bear"? Uh oh: PC Police coming.

Anytime you unknowingly say anything bad about something that a person likes, you are smacking their teddy bear.

Especially damaging, in a sales call, if you are trying to build up your product or service by tearing down the competition. When said competition is their favorite, you just dug a hole not easily repaired.

Just a thought.

I never heard the term before, though it immediately struck me as having both deep and entertaining meanings. Not to mention "fanboy".

This thread is taking me to a new dimension, like getting beamed up to a warp in the space-time continuum.

As a talk show host in Minneapolis is like to say, "you learn more here by accident, than any where else by design."

What a country!!