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L1® Users Forum Musicians General Forums What Do You Think of This New Approach? Price Comparisons and I'd like some input.|
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Alright so..
I've been here on the forum before. And I've had the chance to use the Bose L1 at a show and I really liked it. I didn't think it was perfect but I also think that with work it can be. Now I've never wanted to totally switch over to using nothing but the L1 systems but I've wanted to use them to augment my setup because I think it would greatly improve it. Mostly The biggest thing that I like about it is the idea that theres no soundman controlling you. I dont understand why they have to tweak while you're playing. once its set it should be left alone and nothing should go wrong. My wife Has sung for the nato troops in afghanistan and shes worked in Korea and the Phillipines and always used the traditional setup.. She says its necessary to have a sound man to fix you while you're playing.. but i disagree. If you get things set up and leave them alone they should work fine all night. Anyway. Just because I was curious I decided to check out pricing and compare what i figure would be a basic live setup that would fit my needs for my band and what I could do with the L1 system. I'd much prefer the model 2 system to the model one just because of the stage footprint. the model 1 has a huge footprint on stage and I found it difficult even on a sizeable stage to get them oriented in a way that would work the way they were meant to. With the drummer right against the back wall and 6 musicians on stage that was difficult even with just three L1's. So really the biggest selling point for the model 2 in my opinion is that it has a smaller base thats more portable. The problem is I think its outrageously priced. Say what you will about the price of a traditional setup with all the components and how its comparable for a band with multiple l1s. but I figure part of the allure of the alternative method would be that its also less expensive than buying all this big bulky equpiment. I build guitars for fun and I could easily sell any one of them for 5 or 6K and I"m sure it would be worth it to the person buying it.. but im perfectly fine selling one for 2 - 3K if i cover my costs and make a profit and everybody is happy. I dont believe that the L1 model 2 costs over 2000 dollars to manufacture so i'm a little put off. anyway, those are my issues. My band is kind of ambitious and we've got a lot of gear and this is how our setup would be. 2 guitars, 1 bass, 1 drumset, 2 vox, and one more instrument that would vary according to the needs of the song.. could be mini synth or a keyboard or a theremin. I'm one of the guitar players. Now I'd never take my amps off stage because they are what gives me the color of my sound. between the 2 of us we have 4 amplifiers on stage. Before you scoff at that you need to understand. We catch a lot of flak for it whenever we get out to playing live shows because people think we're just trying to be redneck and that we dont need 3 half-stacks on stage to fill up a pub. We don't do it for volume! Every amplifier I've played on sounds different. And when you really want to get a good sound (and we're total tone freaks by the way, every song has a different sound and color to the guitars) its beneficial to blend these different sounds. So my buddy plays through a Marshall JCM 800 (100 watt) and a Mode Four (350 watt Solid State) and I play through a Rivera Knucklehead (100 watt) and a Crate gx212 combo (120watt solid state). The mixture of the warmth of the tube amp and the digital harshness of the solidstate amp sounds amazing. and we both use this technique. Personally I think micing these 2 amps together through an L1 would just sound heavenly because I know and will testify of how accurately the l1 reproduces the sound. Point being after that tirade, is that we're not getting rid of our amps in favor of the L1, we're using the L1 as an appendage. Anyway. then we've got the Bass player. I wasn't sure if its that important for a bass player with a good size amp to use an L1 because... well if you're in a small enough venue the bass amp will fill the place up no matter where you're standing. But you never know it may be useful in a larger venue so I included it in the shopping cart for comparison. So for the 2 guitars each I put in an L1 model 2 with 2 bass bins each, for the Bass guitar and the Drumkit I got an L1 model 2 with 2 bass bins each plus a packlike bass system each, and for the Vocalist I added the L1 model w/ 1 bass bin and the Tonematch engine, and i added the little microphone clip accessory because I thought it sounded cool. Perhaps the vocals dont need a bass bin. i'm not sure but i got just one anyway. As for the keyboards/theremin there ought to be a spare input somewhere among the 5 L1 systems that would work. especially if the vocalist is the one playing a keyboard, there shoudl be plenty of room. Also I would be singing backup vocals at some point. Not sure if it would be better to use my own l1 for it or the vocalists l1 for it. Here was my shopping cart  Then I went to musicians friend and picked out things I figure woudl be used in a traditional live sound rig. Now I dont know much about Live sound so my choices are probably not very inspired. so look them over if you can read the text on the horribly compressed image and let me know if you think I'm out to lunch on this one. I figured 2 loudspeakers w/ 2 subs, 4 floor monitors. a 24 channel onyx board, and 3 poweramps. 1 for the loud speakers, 1 for the subs, and a smaller one for the floor wedges. I tried to go with stuff that was top of the line but not overblown for what I'd use it for. So I went with peavey poweramps, because I've used them before and found them to be reliable. JBL speaker enclosures, and a mackie mixing board  The traditional setup is still 2K cheaper than the Bose solution. I'd prefer goign with bose, but the cost is just.... I mean its awful.. does nobody else agree with me on this? Its like buying a new car, which I think is kind of silly seeing as how its supposed to cater to small time musicians who play in smaller venues. I'm looking at this and thinking like.... I know the Canadian government has a system to support independant buisness owners, and the promote artists that are canadians who dont have the capital to do it on their own, given that they've got a good plan on paper. So I look at this and think the only way i'd get to be able to buy these things without remorgaging my house would be to see if I can get some help from the gov't if they think we're a sure bet and that we'd generate some capital for the arts in this country.. but I dont konw. anyway Im complaining and i probably contradict myself and sound like a hypocrite or like I"ve got my head buried in the sand or something. take a look through my lists. let me know what I"m out to lunch on. Be honest with me with what i've done wrong in choosing components for a traditional rig, im sure i'v emade some mistakes. or over looked something I needed to go with it. On a personal note, I've been sharing this video on various musician sites. My friend Sterling was the lead sing of our band and he passed away 3 weeks ago from complications with his diabetes. Its been very tough and now we're also out a singer. But i wanted to post this video for all of you just because he was a giant of a man and he deserves some recognition from his peers (which is all of you i think. as fellow musicians) This video was his last performance with the band on December 1st at my wedding. He, along with my band, sang my wife and I our first dance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9_9xVKeNko Thanks for listening. Thanks for letting me complain. As much as I do, trust me I'm 120% for the technology. |
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VA,
Thanks for writing so thoroughly with your opinions. You've definitely thought this out in depth. The forum's kind of quiet today & you've asked a lot of questions, so let us digest & respond after some thought. Are you still in contact with Garry? He's an independent dealer now. Tom |
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Sorry to hear about the loss of your friend as well. I know how hard that is personally. The video reveals what great promise he had.
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actually i havent spoken to garry in over a year. I feel kind of bad about it.. my band at that time kind of disbanded a few weeks after our big show that he came to help out with. We shot each other a couple emails and I told him I'd let him know as soon as we were able to round up the money... but then there was no band.. So i feel kind of bad. I haven't spoken to him for awhile.
But yeah by all means digest away. I'm patient.  |
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VA,
Okay, let me answer you a little bit now. Maybe someone else will chime in as well. Keep your amps by all means. I would suggest that you point them sideways & mic them so that they aren't competing or clouding the sound coming out of the L1's. You can ruin great tone if the audience gets interference between the amps & the L1, & the amps don't have a very good dispersion pattern. You may want to think about smaller amps that put out great tone at lower volume at some point too. There are a lot of these out there now. The bass player is welcome to keep his amp, but the same thing applies to him as far as his tone getting out to the audience. I played with a bass player using a small Ampeg 2x12 (I think) the other night, & while his tone was okay in the audience, it totally overpowered the stage in a really funky way. Our vocals & balance suffered as a result. Now as far as price, we all know the L1's are not inexpensive. I'd have several more if they were less expensive. But the old adage that "you get what you pay for" applies once again. I guess this is just something you have to get past if you want to use the L1's. Bose has told us that they are comfortable with the price, & I believe it is justified with the amount of research & engineering that went into these speakers. Your price comparison left out compression & EQ's & effects gear which could add a lot to the price of the traditional system. I would also recommend T1's for each guy for the best setup Bose-wise which would increase the price on the Bose side. I've crunched the numbers myself a few times, but in the end there is more to the Bose than the price. That doesn't help get the L1 into your hands & onto the stage, but we have ways of working around these things when we really want something. We all like to rant occasionally, & I appreciate that. I only know that the L1 has changed my playing in so many ways that I don't think I could ever go back to a traditional system - & I've thought about it more than once when I was frustrated or stretched for cash or whatever. I hope this helps. Most of us are players like you, & we appreciate the thoughts you're working through. Tom |
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Hi VA
After reading your post about Garry helping you out and what a great guy he was. I ordered an L1/4B1/T1/A1 for a friend and I was very impressed by him. He would probably love to hear from you. Rick This message has been edited. Last edited by: Starvin, |
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Sorry to hear about your friend, that's rough. The solid state and the tube amps being amped and blended sounds very interesting. Reminds me of what the drummer from pantera used to do. He used to play on a miced acoustic kit and run triggers from it as well, he always had a really great drum sound. Anyways. I think if you decided to go bose you could ditch the solid state amps and get the solid state sound through an emulater like a pod. Then keep the tube amps or replace them with a very small high gain amp that can get the same tone, then just mic that. I think that would allow you to downsize on the heavy equipment you would have to bring. This would allow you, I think, to get a comparable sound to the one you have, but get it through the bose. About comparing prices, it depends on how you look at it. I got an L1 when I was shopping around for a new vocal PA and my first bass rig. I would have had to have bought a new pa/mixer, two mains and two monitors at least. If I really wanted to get critical about the FOH sound I'd have to get some subs for the PA as well. Then I'd have to go and buy a some sort of half stack that would be able to compete with a marshal half stack if my band went the traditional route. All this for a soundsystem just to play clubs. So, for me I would have had to have bought a whole new pa mains and monitors, maybe subs, and a bass rig. That would have easily added up to or close to what I paid for my bose L1 system with 4 bass modules. I believe it came close to $3,500. Of course I didn't go with that at first I just had two bass modules and didn't get the other four until our drummer got his electronic drums a few months later. From my perspective it was close to what I would have to spend anyways. If you are comparing the price with just a basic PA or one bass rig, then ya it's hard to justify it in dollars. You'll find though, that just like you love your amps and get your sound from them, the same, "I wouldn't play with anything else unless I had too," mindset come from many artists who use bose L1 systems. When you add the fact that I would be carrying just about all of the PA in and setting it up and being the bands soundguy, the bose starts looking even better in price. I did a gig last night with very steep stairs into a basement of a club. Still got all our stuff loaded within 20 minutes without rushing. Back didn't ache, didn't pull any muscles. I played the same place years ago with half stacks and I was just wrecked after having to load them in, play, and then load them out. P.S. I agree with you that most soundguys tweak way to much. Get it sounding good then leave it. The only real reason to tweak is if a room starts filling up quickly and changes the acoustic and frequency characteristics. A good sound guy will know his system and how to set it for how packed or not a room is. |
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honestly I'm not too concerned about the tonematch engine for guitars, we're so effects heavy we basically engineer our sound in every patch we use. We're both Boss nuts and we both have a GT5 among our setup. I find that the more signal processing you do starts to hurt the sound rather than help it if you've got what you want with relatively few steps.
My thoughts with the guitar amps was to make a screen for it. Kind of like when you see big shows the drummer is behind this big plexiglass wall. I've been told thats for sound isolation when you're recording live. I thought it would be smart to obstruct the enclosures at the same time you mic them, as well as use a Power attenuator. It only needs to be loud enough to drive the sound to where its supposed to be. after that point its just volume, not tone. And i actually never thought of the fact that yu've have 2 very different sounds on stage that way. that could get confusing.. hmm... I really do want a bunch of these things. Just imagine what you could do with one for every person. |
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Toms right. As long as we are including all the costs don't forget what you have to pay the sound guy each time you play without the L1s. Rick |
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VA,
The T1's are for you to mix the signals going into the L1's - not just for effects. You'll need them if you're wanting to mix more than one input into the Model II's. A screen would be okay. I've also seen an isolation box or even just a heavy blanket or the case for the Model II opened out. Your goal is to make sure the sound isn't bleeding onstage or in the audience. Imagine what you can do with one for every person. It's really cool. Each guy runs his own sound & gets exactly the tone he wants for his instrument & vocal. Once you try it you never want to give up that great personal sound or the control of it - just like your favorite guitar amp! Tom |
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Hi VA,
It's been a while, and I'm glad to see you back on the Forum. I, too, am sorry to hear about your lead singer. I didn't get to meet Sterling, but to lose him this early in his life profoundly affects all those who were close to him. He will never be far from the rest of the band and his family and friends. Regarding the L1's, that is a very elite configuration you've chosen. Five L1's with additional bass support on two of them will produce an awesome sound. It will be BIG in that the sound will eminate from across the stage from EACH of your band members. To be fair to JBL, two 1.5" diaphragm horns simple cannot produce as big a sound as 120 2.25" full-range drivers in the mid to high end. If anyone thinks they can, I will welcome a head-to-head showdown. (Looks like the bass end is taken care of in both systems.) To come even CLOSE to the same sound would require at least another pair of the 525's at an additional price of $1,900. Then there's FOH configuration problems, stands, amplification, cabling and ruined sight lines. Transportation and setup factors increase too. How about the snake and 19" racks you forgot to add in on the JBL system? How much do you have to pay a sound man with experience these days anyway? Can you even find one? The Canadian dollar is almost at par, but you still get hit with a few extra percent by the banks or credit card companies, not to mention brokerage and import fees at the border. Now that Bose has taken the value of Canada's dollar into account in their dealer pricing, I can deliver the L1 systems to your front door without any of those extra charges. One more thing, you would pretty much have to buy the entire JBL system up front. With the L1's, they are modular and you only need to buy pieces of the system when you need them. Three L1's (the same number we used last time) would be a good starting point. Modular is good from an ownership point of view too. When you ask for financial contributions from the band, what parts of the JBL system will they own? With the L1's, they own their own L1, period. If they decide to leave the group, they simply pack up their L1 and go. "Selling" their part of the JBL system back to group is not the easiest thing to negotiate. A new guy simply has to bring his own L1 to the table (okay, stage)if they want to sign on. So, the bottom line is this: Adding way more dollars to the JBL system will still not compare to the overall natural sound of the L1 configuration you have selected. One more thing, will Musician's Friend send a JBL specialist to your city to assist in the initial setup and training to optimize your sound? Your L1 questions will be answered on site by me. Guaranteed. |
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L1® Users Forum Musicians General Forums What Do You Think of This New Approach? Price Comparisons and I'd like some input.|
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