New discussion for Saxman7 spun off from The L1® Approach Revisited

Moved Reply:

OK, I initially sent this as a private message to ST, since I didn't want to make waves, or come across as Mr. Mood-killer. However, in his response, he urged me to post this on the public board, as he felt I brought up some points worthy of discussion, and that everyone should have a chance to chime in with their two cents.... So here it is:


Anyway, I just wanted to bring this up, away from the public eye, as I don't want to ruffle any feathers...
I clearly remember, in the early days of this system, that I & many others commented on how frustrating it was not having any effects onboard, or that we had to use a mixer all the time, if we wanted to be able to use them.

Yet, everyone at Bose, and most of the heavy posters, like you & others, kept telling us we didn't need effects, since the system sounds so good that we'd hear the natural reverberation & we really don't need extras like effects.
Yet once the T1 mixer came out, then THAT was what we need to REALLY get the best sound. Oh, and that's another $500 please.....

Don't you think this just a little bit cheesy? The same was true when I kept talking about my frustration with there being no summed line out, which meant no simple recording of gigs, no easy feed to an external, or house system, etc.
Of course, the series II now has it, as Bose obviously realized they had goofed big time, by leaving it off.

I can understand employees, as well as loyal customers wanting to talk up so excellent a product, but hyperbole & exaggeration only serves to make the buyer, or potential buyer, suspicious. If it was so perfect then, why now do we also need this $500 mixer, to make it really sound "more" perfect, now? If a line out was just a superfluous & unnecessary feature before, why add it later? Etc, etc, etc...

And I'm not only saying this because it makes everyone sound just like salesmen hyping whatever comes out, but the insistence on how it should sound so good, that adding effects might only detract, could actually make some customers crazy. They may end up seriously doubting themselves, either that for some reason they can't get it to sound that good, or that they must have something wrong with how they are personally hearing things.

I see this happen on the Apple discussion boards often. Someone writes in with a problem, and they are told by one of the "experienced" semi-expert posters, that they are NOT having that problem, because that "can't be what's happening", invalidating their issue, without really having the foundation to make so blanket a statement.

Maybe it's just me being nit-picky or something, but I felt a little bit of a sense of betrayal of trust. Why tell everyone so emphatically that efx are not really needed, or even further, that they would probably detract from one's sound, only to come out with a Bose proprietary mixer (something else we were told we wouldn't need), with efx, no less?

I've been seriously thinking of getting a compact unit, but I also realize how a T1 would really come in handy, not only for the compact, but for my L1, too, as there are still many nights I'm not all that happy with the EQ in certain rooms. But then, that's not only another grand, but $500 more on top of that, and needless to say, my workload has dropped by at least 50%, for this time of year....

Anyway, I just had to say this, and didn't want to make it a public issue, and figured you'd accept my minor vent, and maybe even provide a perspective I hadn't considered. Well, I hope things are going well for you up in your beautiful part of the world!
Take Care,
Steven

Moved Reply:

Hi Steven,

Thank you for posting this in the public forum.

I have a busy day today, but I'll be back here in a bit with some ideas.

ST

Edit:

Hi Steven,

I had posted the following just before I ran out, not realizing that you had replied, I pulled it so that I could give it some more thought. Since you have replied, here is the original post.

---

Hi Steven,

Thank you for posting this in the public forum.

First, let me accept the label "heavy poster" and ask that you accept my comments as an L1® System Owner and long-time member of this community. I won't attempt to speak for Bose in any of this. Only the people who sign off as -at-Bose are qualified to do that. And since those people are here, I think we should let them speak for themselves.

A sense of Betrayal, Hyperbole, Exaggeration
If I have contributed to your sense of betrayal, I apologize. I accept the responsibility that as a heavy poster, I may have some credibility here. If that is the case, the onus on me to be prudent in what I write. To that end, I try to understand a person's question before launching into an answer, avoid rampant generalizations, to clearly distinguish between my opinions and purported facts, and to provide links and references citing sources for things outside my personal experience.

Betrayal
If your sense of betrayal is the result of people changing their stance with respect to effects, I hope that you will find that at least in my writing, I have remained consistent in what I have said over the years. More on that below in the section (No Effects) below.

Hyperbole and Exaggeration
I am very careful to state when I am speaking from my own direct personal experience. I have tried to moderate my comments and keep hyperbole and exaggeration out of my writing. I do my best to document sources and provide references for almost everything that I write that falls outside my direct experience.

Making Customers Crazy
I am cautious not to question what someone else hears (that person's direct personal experience). Perhaps at the risk of annoying people, when someone is unhappy with what they hear, I will suggest that they try something different. I do this hoping that person will have a different direct personal experience. Often I will be careful not to poison the well by telling them what to expect.

No Effects
With respect to effects - and most especially reverb, I hope that I have been consistent over the years. Personally, I don't use it much, and I do question the notion that electronic reverb is an essential ingredient to live sound. I don't believe my writing about that has changed since the T1® was released. I hope that I have never written anything that sounded like, "You need reverb, so you need a T1®".

I have devoted a lot of time to helping people use effects units with their L1® systems. While I am doing that I will usually take the opportunity to encourage people listen to their L1® in a gig sized room at performance volume without reverb, just to confirm that they actually need it. I still do that these days (as recently as last night) with someone who had just purchased a T1®.

Summed Line Out
We (you and I both) have written a great deal about this. There is a nice discussion from May 2005 (Does anyone else think the PAS should have a main out? ) where this was discussed at length.

I think that people (heavy posters and people-at-Bose) were supportive of the idea that there was a valid need for this. It doesn't surprise me that a summed line out (and/or a separate sub-mix) is a feature of the T1®.

Gotta head out for a bit

Steven, I am glad you posted this. I hope others will join us here. I have to head out for a few hours so I'll check back to see what's happening later today.

All the best,

ST

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

Moved Reply:

Thanks for the response ST, and as usual, you are the straight shooter you always are. I know you go out of way, above & beyond the call, to tune into each person's challenges specific to their particular situation, and then proceed to offer your best take on what they can do. In fact, just last night, in reading someone's call for advice, I chuckled at how after they responded to your request they answer a list of defining questions, you then said that was an area you weren't so familiar with, so you'd have to take a pass! That shows how NOT a "one size fits all" type of person you are, & why we love you man!

In saying that, I realize that's what gets to my hot button, when anyone tries to fit the world's people into a one sized mold, instead of allowing for the variety & randomness of everyone's uniqueness. The most important point I ever make to younger musicians is to always do what best works for them, that it's not about the same horn or mouthpiece, or style of their musical hero, but what best creates THEIR sound & voice, & approach to their musical expression. Same too, I believe, with equipment, which are just a further extension of our instruments, of which I include our voices as well.

For me, part of my "sound" is that "sweet" or "wet" bed of reverb/delay, which in my mind lifts and carries the notes, & helps to envelope the listener, like a massage, or glassy wave on a Hawaii beach... I also appreciate, and often prefer using much less embellishment on my vocals, perhaps so that clarity can be a contrast, standing out from the musical bed, & the listeners better able to hear the lyrics..

And of course, some rooms we play have their own natural warmth & reverberation, but many do not, & that's why I have either outboard efx, or onboard my mixer, and why all the advice in the world didn't affect me in the slightest. Of course, I'm used to going against (maybe "apart from" is less reactive, more precise) "standard thought", but I was concerned about less secure, more impressionable cats, since no one likes to feel "they just don't get it", or "aren't with the program". Thus telling someone used to using efx as part of their sound, that it's simply not needed, makes it sound like they don't know what sounds good for themselves.

I totally agree that "less is more", & with the Bose (which is what we've always called the system, "The Bose"), less is often required, than with more conventional systems. And we do get spoiled, nearly always disappointed those times we allow our laziness to agree to use "their sound system", at certain gigs, for between the equipment, and the sound person's expertise, or lack thereof, we may be in for a less than musically gratifying evening.

I do love this approach, despite so many challenges with feedback, which I think we've come to be able to overcome most of the time. And I'm probably going to get a Compact L1 in the next few days, even though I "shouldn't" really be spending that kind of money at this time. I went to GC, and demo'd all the various alternatives, powered speakers w/onboard mixers, that had good reviews, & in some cases way less expensive. Unfortunately, none of them could match the sound, on top of the portability, of the Bose unit....

So, even if my own ears are going to cost me the extra bucks, I must obey their sage advice....

Moved Reply:

I went through a lot of these same questions and "problems" in the beginning as well. My singer was very unhappy about the lack of effects, until we did a few gigs. Now, even though he owns a couple of nice reverb processors and delays, he pretty much goes naked, utilizing the room reverb and acoustics with excellent results. I do find myself a little frustrated with the original L1's lack of direct outs for channels 3 and 4 on larger gigs where FOH is supplied, because there really is almost no substitute for playing through the L1 for stage monitoring. We've gotten around it a few times by actually having the tech put mics on the L1s for FOH sound. Also, in band situations, I found that running 2 or 3 horns through 1 L1, main and bu vocals plus keys through another, and guitar/bass/drums through a third was usually more than adequate for large functions with up to 400 guests, so 3 L1s for a 6-7 piece band works very well for most situations.

I haven't found in my trials of the T1 and new L2 (or whatever they call it) any compelling reason to trade up except for the footprint of the base, but that's hardly worth the several hundred dollars it would cost.

Moved Reply:

I originally held off on the Bose L1 Classic and read about it for a while. I listened to the discussions about "Effects" and all. At the time I was doing a little solo work and filling in as a KJ (Karaoke Jockey). Most of those singers all wanted reverb or at least something. If they didn't, I wanted it for them. I was running big gear with 65 lb JBL's and such and hated transporting everything.

Somewhere between having a torn rotator cuff and hauling a trailer, I went to the Bose store, down in Orlando.

The store had both models setup and l listened to them both. First off, I usually have to purchase the latest model of anything as I know I would not be satisfied with the previous generation of a product. No one at the store shoved it at me, I listened, heard the improvement, liked the convenience of the T1 and went with the whole works, including 2 B1's. Had I liked the Classic, I would have just added a $99.00 Nano-Verb effects unit, no big deal.

The really nice thing, Bose clearly states, if you are not happy with your purchase, bring it back. No one hyped me over the new or old stuff, my opinion was they listened to their consumers and made changes to meet the competition and requests of their owners and purchasers. This is done by all manufacturers who wish to stay in business.

Most folks buy a product, be it a car, music system, whatever, they use it and if a new one comes out with better mileage, or better sound, we had the use of the other product until the new one came out. So if the new features are worth it to you or your application then you upgrade. Looking backwards or being upset because a company made improvements just doesn't make sense.
I'm sorry, but the competition out there is too aggressive and tough to worry about yesterday. The only way to make progress is to move forward, with an open mind, weigh the decisions, review the opinions and decide which is best for you.

Moved Reply:

quote:

Originally posted by Joelheck:

The really nice thing, Bose clearly states, if you are not happy with your purchase, bring it back. No one hyped me over the new or old stuff, my opinion was they listened to their consumers and made changes to meet the competition and requests of their owners and purchasers. This is done by all manufacturers who wish to stay in business.

I'm afraid Joel, you've misunderstood both my words, and my intent. I said nothing about Bose "not listening to their customers" or that they didn't make changes that many asked for, in fact, one thread here specifically was open to all to make their suggestions for the next models.

quote:

Looking backwards or being upset because a company made improvements just doesn't make sense.
I'm sorry, but the competition out there is too aggressive and tough to worry about yesterday. The only way to make progress is to move forward, with an open mind, weigh the decisions, review the opinions and decide which is best for you.

And I'm hardly looking backwards & upset that changes were made (especially those I suggested), again, you are misunderstanding the point I was making. Of course, improvements & modifications occur, a company, artist, or human being would be in sad shape if we weren't always seeking to improve, to grow, and I was in no way complaining about the changes. Your response, in fact, is exactly why I was reluctant to post my initial message to ST publicly.

Maybe re-reading my message might make it clearer a second time around, maybe not...

Moved Reply:

I love it when someone can get others to express how they feel, in a congenial manner, thanks Saxman7.

And ronjazz, good to see you peeking in here, have missed having you around.

I, like some others, am not a big fan of effects. When or if I use a noticeable amount of reverb or delay or perhaps chorus, it is usually just for a particular song, Hotel California comes to mind.

I don't think Bose ever intended that their systems shouldn't be used with effects. The Classic had inserts so that outboard gear could be used. "I think" the advice to try the systems without effects, was good advice. Hearing one's self, naturally, with clarity, is an eye opener for many, and there are few among us who don't have room for improvement, at least I know for myself, I have been playing and singing for many, many years, and I'll never be as good as those I enjoy listening to the most.

All that being said, there were those here in the early days who asked for effects and more channels, and I was among them. (the more channels part) The T1 wasn't a change in direction for Bose, It was a direct response to consumer demand.

When the T1 came out, I thought it was too expensive. There are many small mixers out there with more channels, for half the money. Why should I have to pay for effects that I didn't need? That takes us right back to the Classic. Why put in something that is costly, that many won't need, or be satisfied with because there is something better out there?

Now, ..... I love the T1. Still don't use much of the effects, but if it only had the zEQ, Para Eq, Scene saving, and the Presets, it still is worth the difference in cost (to me) over any other small mixer that I am aware of. Do I have to have it? No. I use the Compact a lot without it. Does it (the Compact) sound as good without the T1? "I" don't think so, but I'll bet my audience can't tell the difference, or would care if they could.

I purchased a Harmonizer a couple of weeks back. The selling company offered a "free" mini Strat with the purchase. When it came in I opened it up expecting a cool toy for me, or a nice Christmas gift for a niece or nephew. Well it has a built in amp, and only plays a distorted sound. I found it impossible to tune, and had it stuffed back in the box in minutes. If anyone with kids makes me mad between now and Christmas, their kids will get it. "What's the point," you say? Well, why would a company make something for a kid that can't be heard clearly? I know there are many guitarists in this world that make a lot of distorted sounds with their music, but can a kid really learn starting out that way.

I think Bose is the polar opposite. They design and build equipment that allows us to deliver to our audience the clearest, cleanest, sound currently available. Now, if you want that sound distorted, do it before it gets in the Bose and you can deliver to your audience the clearest, cleanest, distorted sound that is available.

I'm not sure I can get to where I was going from where I'm at, but, ......

A lot of times over the years when advice has been given that seems to suggest we all might fit a in a single mold, what I think I, (and some others) have attempted to do is get a questioner to start at some neutral point. No effects. No EQ. Select a preset, get a green light on the trim, turn the volume to the noon position and go from there. Many times we do not know the experience or knowledge of the questioner, only that they are having some issue that impacts their music in a negative way. If we can find common ground, whatever that may be, then we can help, or pass on to someone else who can help. Sometimes it takes several exchanges to identify an issue. Sometimes the issue is not identified, but the questioner discovers through experimentation what it takes to make them happy. And I suppose sometimes we fail.

"The Bose" when used without effects, or exaggerated eq, could be the best tool in the world to show how different we really are. It is only when we mimic what others have done before us that we become indistinguishable.

It's been a long day and I'm rambling. I'll be back.

O..

Moved Reply:

quote:

I'm afraid Joel, you've misunderstood both my words, and my intent.

Hi Steven,

I clearly got overly defensive about calling Bose cheesy on the T1 product introduction, the Betrayal, Hyperbole and Exaggeration issues and interpreted your initial post too aggressively.
Sometimes it's better off to pass on these issues.

My apology for taking a wrong turn on this one.

Sorry,
Joel

Moved Reply:

Hey Oldghm, don't sweat the rambling..... this thread is all about that, just a flow of thoughts. And oftentimes great stuff comes from a stream of consciousness.

I'm certainly not wild about a LOT of effects, especially with vocals, & especially when I do vocals, cause I NEED to be able to hear myself clearly, but then again, I do love playing with various effects, too.

Now, in mentioning the T1, I too, had/have reservations about the price, and for just four channels. There are lots of mixers out there with all kinds of pre-amps, efx, eq, usb, 8-12 ins & various outs, etc. for half the price or less. What exactly about it makes it worth so much more? I imagine, like Apple's iPod, the congruency of all it's functions & wiring, is a factor. But the question is, does it really make the L1 or compact sound that much better than an Alesis, Yamaha, Mackie, or other mixer, with all the bells & whistles on them?

Moved Reply:

quote:

Originally posted by Joelheck:

Hi Steven,

I clearly got overly defensive about calling Bose cheesy on the T1 product introduction, the Betrayal, Hyperbole and Exaggeration issues and interpreted your initial post too aggressively.
Sometimes it's better off to pass on these issues.

My apology for taking a wrong turn on this one.

Sorry,
Joel

Hey Joel, no sweat man, I know very well how sometimes a few keywords or a single statement can trigger more than what was actually being said, behind those words. It's cool......and the band plays on...

Take Care,
Steven

Moved Reply:

O.. it just blows my mind that you play Hotel California! I'm good with it, I play it too, but just not what I expected - obviously I need to know you better! :-) Mike

Moved Reply:

quote:

Originally posted by Saxman7:
Now, in mentioning the T1,....... What exactly about it makes it worth so much more?......... the question is, does it really make the L1 or compact sound that much better than an Alesis, Yamaha, Mackie, or other mixer, with all the bells & whistles on them?

I started playing golf about 15 years ago. My first pair of golf shoes were Big-Mart $30 pleather. Over the years I moved up a little at a time, through catalogue discounted leftovers I limited myself to $100. The shoes never lasted long, often would leak even though the box said waterproof, and the fit was always off, but I only wore them 4 hours at a time 4 or 5 times a month so no big deal.

Last Christmas a very nice person gave me a gift card for a very expensive golf store near by. I was on my way to Florida to play for a couple of days and decided to buy somthing nice for the trip. When I got there it was mostly overpriced shirts and wet weather gear, $60 a dozen golf balls and such, but,.. some really expensive shoes were on sale for less than the gift card amount. I got them. A few days later in Tampa, after 3 rounds of golf my Brother-in-law said, "how you like them new shoes?" Well I hadn't noticed. They didn't seem to need broken in. They didn't leak the day before when we played three hours in very wet grass. I couldn't feel the spikes through the soles. They went on easy, didn't rub my heel when walking. They did make my feet look a little big, but hey "I like em pretty good."

Sometimes the value of something is not known until one experiences it themselves.

O..

Moved Reply:

I hear ya Oldghm, but I could explain to someone why I pay a premium price for some items others might not, & have no problem doing so (which is why I own an L1, and probably going to buy a compact one, too)...

So, just briefly, what does the T1 do for you, less expensive mixers don't? :-)

I find the T1 a great value for the money. I use it very often as a sub-mixer when I sit in with others using their PA, as I will later today. What does it offer over cheaper mixers?

1. Scene Storage
2. Aux Outs
3. Preset Sounds (each channel)
4. Chorus (each channel)
5. Delay (each channel)
6. Reverb (each channel)
7. Compression (each channel)
8. Limiter (each channel)
9. Para –EQ (each channel)
10. USB Recording
11. Ability to update with USB support
12. Small Footprint
13. Great Sound

What mixer can do all of this for less money?
My 2 cents

Presets, Scenes, Para EQ and zEQ I think are the most important to me. You can setup your equipment, set everything flat and start in a new venue with confidence.

Let's say you have a scene saved that has your vocal mic in channel 1, your sax in 2, a friend in 3. Because of some room induced anomoly at a new venue, it just doesn't work and you start making adjustments. When you get it right you can save those new values in a new scene, while preserving the previous scene for another more neutral space.

zEQ shifts the frequency center or range to match the catagory of the selected preset. Nothing else does that.

The selection of effects is not huge but the control over them is much greater than most if not all median priced mini mixers, and considering the size of the package it's amazing what all they did put in it.

I used an Alesis multi mix 8 usb for a while with my Classic when I had need for additional channels. I somehow managed to kill it some time back and I purchased a new Multi mix 8 usb with ipod dock, thinking I would use it for something. It just gathers dust. It is nice and was purchased for less than $200, a good value, but it simply doesn't compare to the T1.

The fact that the T1 can easily be mounted to your mic stand is a plus, (much like having the remote handy). Even though we see folks complaining about breaking stand mounts, I have used mine from the beginning with no issues. I don't know if there was a bad run or unclear install instructions to blame, but it seems all get a new one if there is a problem.

The LCD display showing you the values of each adjustment, instead of a line on a knob pointing to the smudge between two dots has to be a huge plus, especialy if you like to tinker and then return to a specific setting.

Each channel has a channel mute and an effects mute. That's handy.

It has a built in tuner, you might not need that on the sax but you could tune a South American Zampona.

I think each person / user finds their own favorite things about the T1, but like a good pair of specialty shoes it does a terrific job without calling attention to itself, Or, like the L1 you don't notice that it is between you and the dispersion of your music, it frees you from the struggle to get it right.

O..

Oldghm, I also have that same Alesis mixer, with the iPod docking, which is very cool, since you can use it to either play tracks, or record directly to it. And the efx on it sound pretty nice.
However, if I'm reading it correctly, that you can use different efx settings for each channel on the T1, then that, as well as the scene saving feature definitely put it in a different category altogether. Am I right in how I'm understanding this?

To be able to use varied efx on my vocal mic, and others on my sax mic, & others on my WX-5, that would be way cool. And to be able to save various settings in scenes is a great feature, too.

If this is all true, & also the tone-match setting as well, then I would say it's a pretty happening piece...
My only gripe at all would be having to spend another $60, for power supply & bracket. Why isn't a power supply included, or at even a free option, since I've never heard of buying a mixer "a la carte", they all come with their own power supplies, why not Bose's? Craig mentioned not including a T1 port on the compact, so as not to "penalize" those who choose NOT to use a T1, but instead it penalizes those of us who DO, which sounds a bit backwards, as usually you reward your more "active" (buying more & more stuff) customers, not nickel & dime them with extra costs for what should be standard... Also, I would imagine there will soon be more customers buying a T1 for the compact, & for older L1s (like me), than the number of those who already own one.

Hi Saxman,

One of the reasons I purchased the Alesis was because of ipod recording, then when I got it realized my ipod was not one that would work that way. Should have done my research before instead of after the buy.

Type of Reverb is a global effect on the T1, but can be bypassed or mix adjusted, on each channel I think, all other effects are channel selective.

There is a good interactive T1 demo available here somewhere. I'll either find it or get ST to post a link.

I've had the power supply conversation both publicly and privately. While I am able to see both sides of the argument I feel Bose is sometimes blind to things that could improve their image with minimal cost. Including the powersupply with T1 purchase, I think, is one of those things. There are very few $500 electronic items for sale that need a power supply and it is not included with the initial purchase. I would think they sell more T1's than Model II's so they must see the power supply as a profit center on its own. That comment is pure speculation as I have no direct knowledge to support it as fact.

Let me go look for that interactive demo.

Check this out;

http://t1.boseadvocate.com/T1simulation.swf

O..

I'm thinking the point Saxman7 originally made was, and still is, valid:

Bose reps (and several users) initially discounted the lack of effects, basically encouraging and endorsing a dry and/or "natural" sound as the best way to go. Then Bose puts out the rather pricey T1, which is neither dry nor natural.

Saxman7's point was that not only is the introduction of the T1 an obvious contradiction to previous claims, it also led him (and others) to question the veracity of other claims.

I, for one, completely agree. While I'll never throw the baby out with the bathwater regarding any Bose product, sometimes it's just better business to say, "we should have had on-board reverb on our earlier models" - as opposed to trying to convince people they didn't really need it.

Fact is, most all contemporary music employs multiple effects. Musicians do not often have the acoustic benefits of playing in the Hollywood Bowl, or similarly designed concert halls. We all play live gigs in mostly abhorrent situations and contorted structures; or we record in air-tight, sterile, sound-proofed studios.

So I want effects. Perhaps I don't need them, but I want them. At least a decent reverb. For less than $500...lol.

Dennis

Hi dennismp,

I have always, and probably will continue to suggest to those having difficulty with sound, hearing, feedback, inteligibility issues to initiate an effort to get a very natural sound first. Then treat it.

I think most everyone will agree that the L1 is different, but, that doesn't mean it has to be different. It is easy enough to add all the effects one wants or additional bass cabs and get the same sound they had before the L1. But one should ask if that is their goal.

Trying to see the Bose company point of view, (my interpretation, not neccessarily what they intended), If they were going to make a splash with what at the time was a major change in sound reinforcement ideas, they had to get people to use it to it's best advantage. There is a lot more going on than just the way we sound at the speaker cone. The dispersion pattern and its interaction with the surroundings is different than other speakers, providing an opportunity for our listeners to hear us in a more natural manner, if we give them the chance. Natural doesn't mean always dry, it means, what would I sound like in this space without sound reinforcement? Now, when I turn up the L1, 100 people can hear me much the same as a half dozen might, without the L1.

I think it is unfortunate that many of us, I have been down the path I am about to speak of, It is unfortunate that we have tried to emulate the sound of huge rock concerts, in large arenas, instead of trying to emulate the sound of a four or five piece group in an intimate setting. We should ask ourselves, why the "Unplugged" concerts of major rock artists have been so popular? I think in part because thousands of acoustic guitar playing soloists have shown the world over that those songs can sound good in an intimate setting.

There have been a lot of things that led me to question the veracity of claims, by Bose and others. I am currently in the middle of email exchanges with a couple of companies trying to understand conflicting claims that are beyond my technical talent. It is easy enough for a major company's, major minds to utilize words to sell their product that are true if ....., even though it might not be true if ....... . As consumers we have to weigh the pros and cons and take or leave the product.

I rarely use reverb as a noticable effect, therefore I was not offended by the suggestions that I might not need reverb. For others who might have spent their entire performing career utilizing effects as part of their artistry, I can see where not using them would be an intrusion into their artistic space.

I recall hearing either Dr. Bose, or one of the engineers at Bose saying, (parapharasing here) "it is not their mission to make new things for the sake of making new things, it has to be better than what it is intended to replace". If you think about all the new things you see on the market that aren't better than what they replace it's easy to appreciate this idea. So provide an insert and leave the reverb to Lexicon or Alesis. I can understand that approach.

I have already stated my like for the T1, no need to repeat it, but let me say this, the T1 is the response of a major company to commentary and dialog in threads like this one. It is what we asked for, and true to their mission "I think" better than what it is intended to replace.

O..