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Pondering changes since getting started with the Bose approach, found myself wondering how long before we see things like this on the music store bulletin boards.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,
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ahhhh? sure. . .
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Not sure about that last line ST. If one includes only Bose equipped musicians in their search, many qualified players might be left out. Maybe it could say something like, "Must have open mind and be willing to experiment with new ideas".
Oldghm |
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Hey there Oldghm
The last line was really 'the point' in this question. I think that for some bands 'qualified player' the definition would be based on a weighting of various factors (examples only):
And then the more mundane
I was wondering "are we there yet" in terms of being able to add "Bose equipped" somewhere to the list. If I were putting together a new band today, that criteria would figure prominantly in my thinking. Having played in hybrid situations and having enjoyed the 'all Bose band' approach, I can tell you with absolute certainty that given my druthers, I'd never go back to the hybrid approach. If a player was already 'Bose equipped' it could speak volumes to his/her
Playing with people who do not own, know and understand their own instruments (and gear) is more work. When it comes to introducing people to the Bose System, I don't begrudge it because I like sharing 'good news'. In the longer term though, I'd rather be playing the music than explaining the mechanics. edit - grammar This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST, |
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Ditto!! I won't do a triple system band. It takes the fun away for me. My point of view is this, "Bring your own instrument and bring your fair share of the amplification." I did a gig a while ago with monitors and it was AWEFUL. It was then that I said, "I'm done with triple system." and I've never gone back. I'm not intending to slander others who like monitors, I'm intending to say "it's not for me anymore" which is what ST was getting at with the post. Steve |
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Steve and ST, It doesn't surprise me that Bose converts only want to play with Bose converts, especially when they can exercise their "druthers", and I certainly wouldn't suggest that those who have changed to the PAS go back to the "old way" for the sake of playing with anyone, no matter how good they might be. And I wouldn't suggest that anyone share a music making experience with someone they didn't enjoy being around, but to exclude someone from consideration, offhand because they have not yet been bitten by the Bose PAS Bug seems to me to be not in the best interest of finding great players, who might become PAS converts with a little exposure afforded them by friendly PAS owners. Unfortunately there are many good musicians who not only haven't converted, but don't really know about the PAS. I know salespeople in a local music store (which is a Bose Dealer) that still haven't heard a PAS, and they are not going to push it, because they can't sell it. So if the question is "Are we there yet?" in terms of considering only Bose converts for our bandmates, In my opinion the answer is no, unless we are willing to be thought of as "too good for......." I haven't forgotten the discussion a few days back when in my enthusiasm for the PAS I may have alienated a potential convert. (As I read this back I wonder if convert is the right choice of words, but, "I am not going to change it" he said, as he choked on the bitter koolaid)  Your points are well taken and I think understood, but I don't think we are there yet. Preference given to Bose equipped musicians, yea, that might work. Oldghm |
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Going on four years later - I am tired of waiting.
What do you think - would holding an L1® Workshop help? Please see: If you were holding an L1® Workshop.... |
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ST -
There's no better time than now! GO FOR IT, post that "Wanted" poster!!!  OH, and hey, congrats on your 20,000+ post on this message board!!! You are such a resource of information and truly an asset to this community my friend. Thanks for all you do! |
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I'm there...I'd LOVE to be in an all-Bose band!
JR |
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It's three years since this thread began, sadly, we are NOT there yet.
I still meet tremendous resistance to going all Bose, even if I provide it all. Everyone likes the small size, ease of setup, and great sound, but see the L1 as a Jazz, or Soloist's system. Or they insist on putting two systems out front, and two as monitors...the old Three-Tier Approach. They haven't grasped the *band-in-the-soundfield* idea yet, not as it applies to them...being rockers. The biggest opposition is still guitarist & drummers, of course, the most important instruments in the band!  I was recently fired by the guitarist/bandleader of an 80's rock group for *pushing* the L1 agenda. In truth, I was suggesting it strongly, for easy gigging, but in light of the genre, was not demanding it. Rather than say, "no we'd rather not", they said "goodbye". Some music demands big stacks of gear, taking up 1/3 of the venue, and this was one of those bands. I'm not saddened by my dismissal. I'm currently fill-in drumming for 6 bands, of those one will go *all Bose*, two let me bring a system for vocals(their only PA), and the others with PAs allow me to bring one for my drums. So we're not to the point where folks are begging us to join up. But I feel like I'm a lot closer than I was then, there is curiosity now, and most everyone has heard of or seen an L1 by now. Hands down, they say, "Yeah, those thing sound great!". Then I ask, "you want to try them in your band?" They say "oh, no...they're not loud enough for our music". |
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Bass Guitar Electrical Engineer |
Maybe its the proximity to Framingham, but at least in the Boston area, resistance by venues for us using our all L1 system has gone way down.
Almost everyone in the scene here has at least heard of the L1, some have seen and heard it, and most highly respect it for small and medium venue work. Folks we play with often ask how much they are, and if they can buy them for less used. When we go into a place for the first time we often get a, "oh yeah (insert random local artist here) was in here, they had one of the Bose sticks - and they sounded really good, but i've never heard it for a full band before..." When this thread started, that was *not* the case. To most around here the was strange, scary, and threatening. Mike |
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Hi Drumr Pete,
Maybe it is time for *you* to place the ads. What I really mean is, maybe it's time for you to form the band. I don't say this lightly. I'm not being frivolous. The L1® Agenda - OUCH
Wow — an L1® Agenda — now there is a dangerous concept. Dangerous in the sense that given a name, a label for it, it might be easier for people to resist. I'm not calling you out for using the term Pete. I am remarking on how sad it would be if we get people polarized around the gear. And yes, my Wanted Poster may place too much emphasis on the gear. Maybe I need to change my focus to the principles that the L1® represents to me. If people want to get polarized and take up sides, then maybe the focal should be the Better Music Agenda or Better Music Through Research or Better Music by Design. [edit] I took this out, but realized later that it needs to be here for some of the rest of this post to make sense. Complaints and Suggestions When a bunch of us musos are sitting around at somebody else's performance it is common if not somehow mandatory that at some point someone has to talk about the sound. And if it isn't an L1® stage then the negative comments are more common than the positive ones. Even when it is an L1® stage there will be suggestions for improvement. Now that in of itself is telling.
Now *that* is something to explore some day. [/edit] I was rereading Oldghm's comments above
too good for I hope I am not seen to be "too good for....", but I can imagine how that might happen. When you look at a Guitarist's amp and suggest something different, it could sound like you are saying, "You sound bad, I can fix that." I doubt that many of us would actually walk up to another musician and say that, but by suggesting something new, we might be giving the impression that we are being critical of the current situation. And in fact, we are. And if you consider the difference between complaints and suggestions immediately above, maybe we have a right to be, but to be on the receiving end might be downright uncomfortable. It's not just Guitarists who might be sensitive in this way. How many sensitive Guitarists do you know? (drop it, drop it now). But imagine me (a Guitarist) walking up to a Drummer saying, "I can improve your sound". No matter what I say at that point, it could be an uphill battle. What if the L1® sound was a style of music, like a genre When I used to play more Jazz and Blues, I would go out to the Jazz jams and the Blues jams to blow some tunes and troll for new collaborations. I would cringe when the Jazz guys would announce, "the next tune will be a Blues". I just knew that what was coming was going to be a stretch. And years ago I was actually pulled off the stage at a Blues jam for being "too Jazz for this place". In both of these cases there was a conflict about the genre. There was no inherent criticism about someone's ability, someone's gear, someone's sound. The conflict was about whether someone's choice or interpretation of the music suited the audience's expectation. Or it could be about the fit between the style of music and the way someone executed it. So if the L1® sound was defined as - - - you fill in the points -= AND =- You said, I play the L1® sound (I know, the language is getting awkward here), then the potential conflict is not about whether or not we use L1®s, it is about how we choose to play. So am I too good to play too loud? If so, then I'm okay with that label. Am I too good to hurt people with my music? So be it. Am I too good to work most of my life to sound a certain way, and not be heard? Yes. 'nuff for now. This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST, |
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Interesting set of comments, ST. The first two are really *caring* comments ... that you are caring about the effect your music has on others -- sort of like a musical equivalent of a portion of the medical Hippocratic Oath -- "...never do harm to anyone". The third point is a selfish point -- but there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Artists of all genres generally desire for their art to be presented in the best possible way. Perhaps it is less being "too good" as it may be "I'm a professional musician, and as such I have certain principles I strive to follow:" ... not to hurt people with my music. ... not to hurt people with the amplification of my music. ... provide the best "presentation" of my music, to the best of my abilities. That last point could probably use some re-wording, but I hope you get the idea. p.s.: One doesn't have to earn their living by a particular 'profession' (e.g.: music) to ascribe to 'professional' standards and principles. |
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Dan, true. What I have found to be the best thing to do is lead by example. I do in fact think that the L1 is the best way to go, but I also have virtually nothing else to base it on. It's all I have ever known. I've never used a 3-tier system that was well-engineered, but I know it's possible. When I have been behind this approach, I said never again. It's not worth it. So when I say "never," I mean almost never, practically. Coming into band performing relatively late - really just in the last 3-1/2 years - I already had an L1. My lead-by-example approach means take it or leave it. Hopefully I'm doing the best I can musically. I know I'm using the best I can equipment-wise. So if I can put the two together successfully, that's where it ends with me. Do I want to change the world? Sure I do. I hope everyone does. I hope we have the courage enough to attempt to change the things that need changing (maybe that's typed just for me). Unless selling the L1 (the product family, not my personal unit) is my only option for creating income for me, though, I won't introduce it to someone else. And since this isn't the case, I find there is more peace in simply doing the best I can with the best that I have. If others recognize what an "instrument" the L1 is, and want to know more, then that is super. If they don't see it or hear it, but they know that you sound great, then that is also super. Didn't O say that above? Not realizing it's there is perhaps a greater testament than anything else. Of course there is always the issue of cost. Oh, that I could make music full-time, but I don't. In real life I am a cabinetmaker of 10+ years. Almost all of what I see out there - my competition, really - is a "3 tier system." I build the "L1". Is that too vague an analogy? If somebody needs or wants a new kitchen or piece of furniture, there are tons of places to procure said items. I have had people tell me that they would love to have some of my work, but they just can't afford it. Taking that to be the truth, can't we apply it to the L1? It's pretty subjective as to what is best, I realize, but let's say they honestly believe that the L1 is the best thing and would suit them perfectly. If money is an issue, though (and they are well-disciplined), they aren't going to buy it. In this case, they do their very best musically, but "make do" with whatever they can afford. In my band, I am the only L1 user. Should the others be? Of course, but I cannot complain about our sound. I'm not certain going all L1 (if the willingness were there, understand) would do much for us. Oh, it would help some (my drummer last night had a hard time hearing the piano) Really, no bigger venues than we play, we do use the L1 approach. We basically hear what the audience hears. I just mentioned subjectivity with respect to what is best - best anything. Well, what is music? Now talk about subjective! That might be too specific, actually. I'll generalize it by using "art form" instead, drawing on Dan's comment above. A loud mess of noise, splitting ear drums within a 10 mile radius is what it is. Curiously, this somehow brings some heightened level of emotion to the presenter and possibly an audience. How that emotion translates to enjoyment is beyond me, but that's my opinion. Is a water color better than an oil? Is a photo better than a pencil sketch? Is ballet better than tap? Is opera better than musical theatre? Is a mime on the street better than the disheveled sax player? Am I off on this? To me, it doesn't have to be this way or that. In reality, though, it is this way or that...with a whole lot of gray in between. I have a bulldog (or English bulldog, if you prefer that designation). Why anyone would ever want a dog other than a bulldog is beyond me. And bulldog owners know what I'm talking about. It's fun to talk to other bulldog owners. We can relate to each other. It's great. We have a gas stove. Why anyone would cook with an electric range is beyond me. Gas range users know what I'm talking about. I hate having to use an electric stove. I'm glad it doesn't happen much. But you know, I've had some pretty great cuisine cooked on an electric stove, and some of it was mine. I took myself, and did the best I could where I personally was concerned, and used the tool at hand to do the work. I adapted. I was certainly bugged, and would have been doubly-bugged if the meal were a flop. Fortunately it wasn't the case. The L1 is a tool. If you can put out a good product that people will “buy” while using this tool, that’s fantastic. If they (as musicians) aspire to similar results, they may see the L1 as a means to get to where they want to be. But if they are satisfied with where they are, then we as L1 users have the problem if we think they should be dissatisfied. They, quite matter-of-factly, probably just don’t know any better – know any different. If change is not for them, then there is no problem at all with shaking the dust off our feet and moving on. I suppose that’s why presenting the best example of ourselves that we can is the approach that I have decided to take. For an audience, I don’t think they really care what you’re playing through. If they like your music/sound/presentation, they’ll come back, I guess. We hope. I have no trouble with the idea that the L1 is not one-size-fits-all. I’m faced with that in my own work all the time. That I could educate the masses as to why my work is fantastic (I think it is) and why they should spend their money on me…well, the masses are merely a lot of individuals, each with his or her individual ideas and experiences. Some of these ideas and experiences are viewed by others as misconceptions or preconceived notions, and probably in an unfair or negative sense to us (the viewer). For them, the individuals (of course this is us, too), it’s an innocent thing. Sometimes an ignorant thing, which is also innocent. I’ve yet to meet an L1 owner who I thought was a jerk. I hope others feel the same for me. But the L1 didn’t make us, what I feel, a tremendous group of guys and gals. Something about us brought us to it in the first place. When we can get together, it’s not about the L1. There’s more at work than just the L1, as a tool, building the community. And like a bunch of bulldog owners, this common ground is so great. Summary to all of this: Do your best with what you have (“your best” and “what you have” will change a thousand times). Musically or otherwise. Some will follow. Some will not. Mostly, though, we’ll never know if we made a difference. |
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Hi Nathan,
Thanks for the great post. I really enjoyed reading that. You are in an interesting position, When you are performing, you are from what I can gather, the lead vocalist. In most modern musical styles that puts you on the top of the heap. As a listener, I have been conditioned by the radio to expect to hear you better than anything else. If I can, I'm probably happy. If I can't, well gee I must be listening to a live show. Okay enough gentle cynicism. If you or any lead vocalist
No one I can imagine in any of my previous musical collaborations would take issue with it. Moreover, if you were the only one using an L1®, it would still be fine. Not as fine if everyone was, but it would fine all the same. If the lead vocal is clearer, more intelligible, carries farther in the room, than any other part of the band then it's okay. With the possible exception of a band bearing the name of an instrumentalist I can't imagine any objections. If I am not singing lead vocals, but my contribution to the ensemble is clearer, more intelligible, carries farther into the room, than any other part of the band then I may have a problem. I have to be very careful not to upstage the talent when I'm just sittin' in. If I had to prioritize what goes through the L1® when there's only one L1® for a band, I would put the vocals first. Sometimes there just isn't enough time or it isn't appropriate to make the case for changing how everything is being done. But when the question comes up - what's the best way to use this thing, I am going to favour the lead vocals. And I might well be convinced to share my L1® with the lead vocalist if s/he doesn't have one. |
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Hi Drumr Pete,
I'm sorry - I just re-read this and realized that I had edited out something above that paragraph, so it probably didn't make a lot of sense. Let me put that back in. What I had said that didn't survive the second edit... When a bunch of us musos are sitting around at somebody else's performance it is common if not somehow mandatory that at some point someone has to talk about the sound. And if it isn't an L1® stage then the negative comments are more common than the positive ones. Even when it is an L1® stage there will be suggestions for improvement. Now that in of itself is telling.
Now *that* is something to explore some day. Anyway, *that* is what I was talking about in the section in bold. I hope that's clearer. |
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Thanks for the clarification, ST. I now understand better your point.
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After thinking on this a bit more, I think I understand better, too. "Are we there yet?" Are we to a point where we don't want to play if it's not all L1? Or listen to a show if it's not all L1? Am I closer to the point?
I didn't know how great the L1 was...well, yes I did, but I came to appreciate it more when I would hear pretty bad sound when I was a spectator, after I had used my L1 for a while. I could enjoy nothing from the presentation because I couldn't get past the quality of the sound. Talent aside. I never negated that, I just couldn't enjoy it. But I knew better, and most of the public doesn't. Some may have wondered why it wasn't so great, but most were probably so accustomed to the way it "should" sound, they didn't know they weren't getting the whole show. Except, they really were. It was what it was for when it was. Should you not use the L1 if you're not the main "voice" on stage? Good question, and I appreciate the illustration you gave, ST. I think you will only upstage the main person (instrument or voice) if you are actually better than they are musically - again, subjectivity rules here. But I never think you should not attempt your best in ensemble work, regardless of the caliber of musicians with whom you're playing. Our 11-yr-old daughter brought this very thing up yesterday or the day before. She was concerned about doing what she felt was a better job than her classmates in the Christmas program which was last night. That is, she could recognize her strengths, especially compared to some others. She's very sensitive to others, and this was a very good thing. We told her, though, that it would be a disservice to herself, the others, and to the material if she didn't do her best with it. Like the L1, I know my reasoning isn't one-size-fits-all, either. If your best work is realized through an L1, though, then use it. If it won't integrate, can we adapt to the other players? We'd rather they adapt to us, sure. That's impoossible if we go to see/hear someone who doesn't use an L1. Should we avoid those shows for that reason alone? Certainly not. Should we avoid playing with folks who don't and won't use an L1? Also, no. In either case, though, it's not about the L1. So, while some are adamant about L1 use and some are not, I am comfortable with the generalization that we are "snootier" about sound than before this tool became available to us. |
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Hi Nathan,
I think that being aware and responsive to the issue is part of being an aware and responsible musician. If you are an accompanist with an L1® in hybrid band, you may not have the same sense of the overall mix as you get when playing with an all L1® band. What you are hearing on stage is probably not representative of what is happening out front for the audience. If that is the case (and I have found it so for me anyway), it is very easy to upstage the talent just by virtue of greater perceived volume or clarity in the audience. Dealing with this well becomes part and parcel of *doing your best*. |
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