To All,

On the stereo issue, If you ask for a comparison between conventional systems and the PAS, the answer is always "apples and oranges" can't make the comparison. But when the subject of working in streo comes up, its back to the conventional system argument of only the person in the "sweet spot" gets the benefit.

I understand the precedence effect as it has been described here, but if the PAS looses db at half the rate of conventional systems shouldn't stereo be twice as good?

Just curious, Oldghm

Jimmy Keys,

I don't have my own PAS yet,(should arrive Thursday) but I noticed when experimenting with a friends PAS that volume seems not to be as strong up close as it is 10 ft or so away from the unit. I have looked at the db charts elsewhere in this forum and they show higher db up close than 3 meters away but maybe a db meter doesn't work the same way our ears do. Perhaps the At-Bose-Guys will comment on this.

Oldghm

Jimmy,
If you are connecting to the slave PS1 from the master's Line OUT, then the signal is very hot, almost too hot. I'd recommend using a DI box with a pad feature or the 20dB ImpPad from Whirlwind.

Kyle

Well said ST.

I have been a musician and a sound engineer for
25 years. Your comments re. stage-etiquette within a band are spot-on. Before they reach
maturity, musicians can be a little self-absorbed and oblivious to thier surroundings. As they get more confident with themselves and thier playing they relax a bit. This frees up
valuable brain-cells for things like "sound shadows" and "listening to others".

Cheeky remarks aside, hearing one's self onstage
is truly important to deliver your performance.
Doing sound I have learned that if the vocalists are singing off-pitch it is probably
because they can't hear themselves, each other or both. (turning up the apropriate monitor feed
could usally help)

Running a 5-channel monitor mix as well as the stereo mix is a great joy many sound-people are
asked to do with traditional P.A.s. (oh, and could you run the lights too sweety?)

I have recently been asked to run a hybrid PAS
system in a friend's church. The band has 6-7 people going down a snake to a loaded 16x2x2 mixer then returning to a pair of 31 band EQs (for room-EQ) then to two PAS towers, each with
it's own bass box. With some stereo staging to match the players' positions the system is a big improvement over the old Main & monitors rig. Less sound-clutter on stage.

The SPL's are ideal between 85 dB and 95 dB (on stage) and only drop by 5 dB at the back of the church.

The band and the folks seem to be able to hear
everything more clearly. I love the sound I hear but it does lack for bass-response below 40 Hz.
If the Bass player has a proper Bass-bin/amp this will not be an issue.

Our rig is a bit complicated so it does require a sound engineer to get a good mix, but after all, wouldn't you rather have someone mixing from the audience? We run a couple FX loops at the mixer too: a comp-limiter insert on the orator's mic and a global 'verb unit for fluffing the singers. note: use 100% wet on the return to minimize comb-filtering.


Q: can anyone tell me if the processor has some fkind of digital anti-feedback circuitry built in?
I just don't quite get how it doesn't feedback all the time with the speakers behind the mic-line.

So thanks for the input. You can tell them if they don't like the heat, stay out of the Hot-Zone!

the~Wind

Hi the~Wind,

quote:

Originally posted by the~Wind:
Our rig is a bit complicated so it does require a sound engineer to get a good mix, but after all, wouldn't you rather have someone mixing from the audience?

I think the situation, the type of performance, and the role of the performers should inform this thinking,

Personally, as a Guitar player / Vocalist in a duo / band situation (occasionally up to 8-9 players); no, I would rather work collaborately with like minded folks to create the mix. In a larger ensemble I might like to have a Music Director / Conductor to offer guidance about the mix, but I'll keep my hands on the Remote. At this point, to surrender that to someone else would be like having someone else manipulating the pressure I apply with my fingers on the strings.

I'm not suggesting that this thinking is appropriate for all situations but I think it is appropriate to put control of the mix in the hands of the musicians when you have the ideal 1:1 (one System per musician) setup.

quote:

We run a couple FX loops at the mixer too: a comp-limiter insert on the orator's mic and a global 'verb unit for fluffing the singers. note: use 100% wet on the return to minimize comb-filtering.

Not familiar with "fluffing" in this context.

quote:

Q: can anyone tell me if the processor has some fkind of digital anti-feedback circuitry built in?
I just don't quite get how it doesn't feedback all the time with the speakers behind the mic-line.

See the end of this post where I've quoted something about feed back from the main Bose site.

quote:

So thanks for the input. You can tell them if they don't like the heat, stay out of the Hot-Zone!

Funny - this post is going on two years old. Glad it still feels relevant.

We got the kinks worked out fairly quickly and nobody's in anyone's way now.

Here's that info about feed back.

---

Does this new system feed back?


The Personalized Amplification System™ approach is resistant to, but not immune from feedback. It's performance in this critical dimension has been shown under the vast majority of cases to be significantly better than the traditional "triple system" approach of backline instrument amplifiers, monitor system and PA system. Here are some of the reasons why:

- There are far fewer feedback loops because a microphone is connected to only one Cylindrical Radiator® speaker, not many as in the case of monitors and PA speakers. Fewer loops that can feedback mean less feedback.

- The radiation characteristics of the Cylindrical Radiator speaker, whereby the sound levels changes little with distance, means that a good level can be set for the audience without it being blasting loud near the stage. Less level at the stage means less level bleeding back into microphones that can cause feedback.

- Because of the unique properties of the Cylindrical Radiator speaker (little level change with distance) you can move a microphone around with much less fear of triggering feedback.

- In a conventional triple system, the sound operator makes multitudes of adjustments for one reason or another not related to feedback. And yet, these changes can all conspire to produce conditions which upon the next adjustment feedback is triggered. The sound operator (I have been one for twenty five years) never knows which adjustments contributed negatively to conditions for feedback. When it occurs, he/she must quickly make major adjustments to stop the squealing, then more or less start again to try and create higher gain without feedback. In the new approach, the musicians, and no one else, control the sound. They have far fewer controls to keep track of and thus if they happen to trigger feedback, they make a quick adjustment.

With all of this said, all of the normal practices that control feedback in a traditional system should still be employed here, with signal processing as a last resort. We have had the best performance from standard dynamic stage microphones. We do not use feedback suppressors. We were able to get the mics loud enough without the suppressors. Most important of all techniques is to get as close to the microphone as possible. The difference in gain before feedback between an inch from the capsule and 1/10" is 20 dB.

Hello The Wind,

Welcome to this community. I hope you register and join us because I sense that you have a lot to offer.

As things unfold, I would ask that you find a way to experiment with the band mixing themselves. Our experience is that not only CAN they do it, but they do it BEAUTIFULLY. We believe that musicians actually have this "in their bones" because the archeological record shows that humans have mixed themselves for tens of thousands of years (at least).

I am a sound man of 25 years as well, and the thought of giving up control over the audience mix was in one way a horrifying one.

All I can tell you is that with this new technology for live sound letting go was for me one of the most liberating and rewarding experiences of my life. My focus went from playing "sound god" to helping musicians with their tone, and giving them my impressions of how they were "getting over" in the audience.

Your thoughts, including criticisms, are welcome here. We hope you stay with us.

Ken Jacob
Chief Engineer

Welcome The Wind:

quote:

Q: can anyone tell me if the processor has some fkind of digital anti-feedback circuitry built in?
I just don't quite get how it doesn't feedback all the time with the speakers behind the mic-line.

It's magic! (in other words I have no answer, it just works)

quote:

Funny - this post is going on two years old. Glad it still feels relevant.

I read the whole first page before spotting the dates!

This is hilarious. Drums-to-the-side has become the norm and has proven to be the best spot for us. We can see everyone better and hear better, it also gives the audience a better look us (for better or worse)

Time proves the approach doesn't it?

PS

Ken, "Letting go" is the right thing to do in many matters, you are as wise as you are photogenic.