quote:

Originally posted by Andrew Douglas:
You're missing something fundamental about the Model II.

You MUST use a B1 AT ALL TIMES. It's designed that way. That's why you cannot purchase a Model II without buying a B1 to go with it. The "problem" you're having is that you're not using the system as it's meant to be used.

This has been well documented elsewhere.

Also, why is taking the port out of the speaker column automatically a bad thing? The point is how it sounds, not how Bose achieves that sound.

The Model II cylindrical radiators are completely redesigned and not the same thing as the Classic/Model I radiators.

Hope this helps....

Your condescending post is no help at all. I have already figured out that you intended the B1 as a necessity, if you had read my whole post.

While you designers may have your reasons for having fixed something that wasn't broken, I have no idea why you couldn't have left well enough alone.

Was it impossible to leave the basic tonality alone while still angling the speakers?

With all else you've accomplished in introducing the PAS principle to the market I'm sure you would have had no problem if you had valued that particular aspect, which must have seemed important when you made the Classic.

I'm a little surprised by your cavalier and argumentative attitude as a company representative and you should note that my post is not an attack on a speaker system of which I already own 3.

Removing the ports was a bad idea from my ignorant perspective and maybe you think I'm too dumb to own PAS but how Bose achieves the sound matters, and I think they/you have done an excellent job in most aspects.

However I can't be the only one who feels that the fact that you decided to make the Classic sound good regardless of attached B1's or not, and the Model II to sound horribly anemic without them was a financial maneuver to sell more product.

Your entire post added nothing to the discussion and if you want to continue you could explain the thought process behind these changes as opposed to speaking down to me as if I had no idea of any of the already established 'common knowledge' statements you posted.

Would be less aggravating being spoken to this way by someone not attached to Bose.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Akami,

Whoa!! No reason to get upset. I'm sure Andy didn't mean to talk down to you.

I was concerned when I first saw the new tower without the ports as well. When I asked the at-Bose guys, here's what I was told.

MikeZ-at-Bose said:

quote:

...for proper operation of the model II you need a bass module (99% of a time this is one or more B1's, or you can use a third-party powered sub). It is not designed to function without a bass module like the Classic and model I.

Why? The L1(tm) model II Cylindrical Radiator (tm) is un-ported, unlike the Classic/model I which has a port. The ported models can reproduce a moderate amount of frequencies on their own, hence why you don't need a B1.

We found that 99% of L1(tm) Classic purchasers bought at least 1 B1 anyway, so for the model II we assumed a B1 would be used.

Maybe one of the at-Bose guys will chime in here too.

Tom

Apologies!!!!! I did not mean to come across as condescending. It's natural to assume that because your Model I / Classic worked in a certain way, that the Model II should work the same way. This is not the case.

To be fair, the owner's manual (which I have in front of me) does tell you how to plug in a B1. It does not, however, tell you that you must use a B1 for the system to perform as designed, nor does that issue turn up in the troubleshooting section. Therefore it's easy to see how someone already familiar with the Classic / Model I might make a perfectly reasonable, but nevertheless incorrect, assumption about the correct way to plug in a Model II.

I absolutely did read your entire post, and my take-away was that you thought the Model II sounds "like it's ready to die of starvation" without a B1 connected to it, but that it sounds fine when you do hook up a B1.

Did I misunderstand you? Please help me to understand...are you saying that you don't like the way the Model II sounds, period? Or are you saying what I thought I read, that it sounds "like it's ready to die of starvation" without a B1 plugged in?

You're absolutely right. The Model II does sound anemic without a B1, because it was never intended to sound good when used that way.

Perhaps I'm unclear on the point of your post. Are you commenting on the need for a B1 for the Model II? My intention was to point out that yes, you do need to use a B1 with the Model II, and that running the system without one is not the correct way to configure the system. Nothing more.

Your evident assumption that I work for Bose is incorrect. I had nothing to do with the design, nor am I a Bose employee. You'll note that I do not have an "at-bose" user name, which is how you identify the Bose employees on this forum. I'm an independent rep.

If you're PO'ed over what I said, please make sure it's directed my way and not at Bose.

Likewise, if you've got an issue with Bose, please direct it at them and not at a fellow owner/user. For the record, I also own three systems, which I paid full retail for.

With all due respect, I think you need to tone it down a bit. Your post is full of confrontational language that is frankly uncalled for. Please calm down and be constructive.

Just to address the last part about my post sounding confrontational, it was that way because it appeared I was being talked down to and everything in the post I was responding to was fairly condescending in tone, although that was obviously not your intention.

Sorry to have caused any upset and I hopefully the air is now cleared for further discussion on the Model II or T1.

Thanks Tom for trying to explain Andy's position and to Andy for taking the trouble to write again.

Anyway the point of my original post is still simply my first impressions, both positive and negative and I still wish they had left the frequency response alone.

The original L1 was consistently sold as a stand alone unit that a solo acoustic performer could get by with, and I would have used it that way in a very quiet setting, but am now not capable of playing without at least one B1, which I had hoped to sell off with the original L1's.

Oh well, such is life; two steps forward, one back.

Still super jazzed to have the Model II and if anyone at Bose is listening I'll be one of the first to buy the new system that brings back the frequency response of the originals.

Oh and Tom, I wish I had already had the chance to play through one, or read the info in your post before spending all that money.

Wouldn't have made any difference in my decision to purchase, but was a bummer to find out it was only usable with an accessory attached.

Akami,

I've never had much luck not using a B1 with a Classic. For acoustic guitar I would always get rattle or port noise when I dug in on the low strings. On voice I couldn't get enough dynamics. I know some people here use the Classic without a B1 quite often, but it never worked for me, (except in the one case where I had a blown B1 & had to go two gigs without one - a long story). So it didn't bother me much when I found out the Model II needed the B1 all the time. As in everything in life, we adjust & make the situation work for us.

I'm sure your posted has been noted by the engineers who designed this. They agonize when people have a complaint like this because they really do want to create great tools we can use.

Tom

When I first used the L1 without B1 I was happy with it, but at low volume levels only and shortly thereafter started using a pair of B1's.

Practicing in my room though I never found the need/desire to hook up the B1 except for practice with the electric and sequencer.

From my experience I assume you are playing at a higher output level than I am in your acoustic guitar gigs? I've never had a rattle problem but I do have an L1 that doesn't send any output to the B1's, but with them not connected it sounds fine for practice.
The same could never be said for the newer model, but as you've noted, I too am happy to have it nonetheless.

Guess I should get the older L1 shipped back to find the problem with it at any rate.

Yeah, call support about that bad output sometime.

I like to get a lot of bass out of my acoustic when I play solo.

Tom

hey Akami,

Are you OK with the frequency response when the B1's are plugged in?

As Tom quoted me earlier - we found that almost nobody used the L1 without a B1. Taking out the ports in the model II loudpspeaker allowed us to add in the articulated array without removing drivers or making the array any taller. The L1 is close to many ceilings (too tall for a small #) and we certainly did not want to go any higher. So, we chose to keep the array total height the same and take out the ports.

I hope that helps give you some insight into why the model II came out the way it did. I guarantee you our decision was not part of a B1 sales conspiracy :-)

Let me know if you have any questions or additional comments. We really listen to and appreciate them, good and bad. Thank you for taking the time to share yours...enjoy your model II's!

Sincerely,
-Mike

I was happy with the sound immediately upon hooking up a B1 in my room but when I played with it last night at work I had my Schroeder connected and it seems you made some refinements in regards to overall bass response because it seems much fuller than my older set up, which I suppose could be the result of the way I had the gain structure set up.

I'm really glad you replied to my post here and have made a bit more sense of why the ports were not included in the newer design.

I hope in the future you'll be able to open them up possibly on the sides, as with lower frequencies being less and less directional, the benefit would be the same regardless of location. Just put a side port at the base of each pole section and I'll buy the new improved ones.

Hi Akami,

The crossover between the Cylindrical Radiator® and the B1 is different on the Model II.

On the Classic/Model I is at 180 Hz.
On the Model II it is at 200 Hz.

Do you suppose that might be part of what you are hearing?


Reference: Model II B1 and Bass Line Out.

Possibly so. Since the Schroeder is much more efficient sending the content in that range to the sub would fatten up the lower mids, even if only little.