The scary part of the Bose L1 System approach to live music is that the gremlins at Bose apparently aren't sitting back on their haunches, pulling their thumbs from pies, or patting each other on the back. Even though they're entitled to do all three.

No, they're busy finding new ways to make perfection and simplicity even more perfect and simpler.

So that's what I think of this new approach. It's awesome, and gets better.

Bose may well host this forum to provide useful information, but they also cull useful information from it - and obviously use it.

Brilliant!

Anyway, how, exactly, DO you improve perfection?

I have no idea. But I know they will find a way. Bose has always been on another planet when it comes to the art of sound. End of story.

But their stuff ain't cheap, that's for sure (lol) so...

I'm just'a waiting. We have one L1, (4-piece all-over-the-place cover band) and we're buying one more - plus one of those incredible ToneMatch audioslave thingy's (lol), and then we're saving our money and waiting for the next perfection of perfect live sound.

So, chop-chop, Bose. I ain't no spring chicken, here...lol. What's next, and when can I buy it?

Dennis

quote:

but they also cull useful information from it - and obviously use it.

Dennis, you are soooo right on this.
I frequent other musical instrument forums, and no company interacts with its members like Bose.
They are in a league of their own.

quote:

...no company interacts with its members like Bose.
They are in a league of their own.

No, no, Drumr...not just a league of their own, their own PLANET.

I love hyperbole...lol. Especially when it's warranted.

Dennis

Congratulations, Dennismp, for writing 2 consecutive posts that didn’t require bleeping!

For one who habitually uses expletives like an 18th century sailor, on a public forum no less, you have a great writing style and a fantastic vocabulary....a rather unique combination for sure. It's almost surreal. Truly, I think that you would do quite well doing something like writing ad copy for Bose…….but you’ll really have to drop the expletive habit!

I see from your very first post that you use a single L1 for vocals. I use one in this manner as well (as a dedicated vocal PA), for my jazz band (we have a female vocalist), and it works quite well. I’m also in the process of working out a way to use it for both bass and vocals to simplify things and save some floor space when we play at very small venues. My bass player has some reservations, but I’m working on this.

I find the integration of point source amplification with the L1 to be no problem whatsoever, at least when the L1 is used with vocals. This is not recommended usage, but I think that an L1 shines when used in this capacity.

W.A.

quote:

For one who habitually uses expletives like an 18th century sailor, on a public forum no less, you have a great writing style and a fantastic vocabulary....

Well, thank you so very much for the compliments, Jazzman!

(You're certainly no slouch with the letters, as well, amigo.)

But, gee whiz, I still do love a good expletive every now and then...lol.

To clarify the dichotomy: my mother's a Latin/English teacher, and my dad was a drunken sailor. Okay, I'm lying about my dad. He was actually a very sober carpenter, and I worked with and for him most of my life. So I guess that's where I developed a tolerance - appreciation, even - of blue language.

Hit your thumb with a hammer, twice in the same hour, and get back to me...lol.

Seriously, though, I truly have no problem with this forum's policy regarding language...

Except, when it comes to the word, "da*n". I used it in one post, and Ken changed it to "darn".

Now, darn it, the word 'da*n', 'da*ned', and/or 'da*nation' are used in the Bible about 2,000 times. Further, it was the last word used in a classic movie made in 1939, for Pete's sake. Not to mention it's the first word in the title of a 1955 Tony-Award winning musical, and the subsequent 1958 movie based on it.

So, I'm of the mind it's a fairly safe (bordering on banal) word to use in mixed company in the year 2008...but that's just the opinion of a potty-mouth like me. Yet, I'll still respect and honestly do my best to adhere to the policy(s) of my hosts.

Particularly the good ones...lol.

Thanks again,

Dennis

So, Dennis, you are a carpenter with a degree from, oh, let’s say, M.I.T. <wink>. That’s fine with me. You do humor me, you know. I had a good laugh reading your last post…. I could see more comic activity happening around here.

In some of your posts, you speak of new Bose things happening in time. Might you have a crystal ball? Hmmm……let’s see, maybe you are conjuring up images of B1’s with bigger, 6 ½ inch speakers, perhaps? A little more thump to please the bass hungry might be a good thing, no?

W.A.

quote:

Originally posted by Jazzman888:
...maybe you are conjuring up images of B1’s with bigger, 6 ½ inch speakers, perhaps?

Yes, indeed, Jazz. A variety of B1 options would be a major enhancement. Say, even, a dual 8" with tuned ports? Tight and punchy. Or a single 12" B1 - for that fat bottom.

I believe the Stick itself is hard to improve, unless you simply make it a double-wide, (imagine that!) but you're right on the money to look at the bass module options as a primary area Bose could focus on to enhance this system's versatility.

Would be nice to be able to purchase an L1 with the option of a standard B1, a B1 2x8TP, or B1 - 12. Any combination. Or something like that.

Dennis

I just re-read your very first post, Dennis, and I have to say that for someone whose “head hurts saying ‘sound engineer’, you sure have an amazing grasp of the technical side of things. I could imagine that degree being one in engineering! I’m happy, though, that you can discuss all of this with what appears to be considerable experience and understanding.

You hit the nail on the head here. The “stick” as is works quite well. But when I see a guy, a bass player, sell 100 lbs. of B1’s (4 plus a packlite), replace it with another manufacturer’s 40 lb. bass cab that cost 2/3’s as much, and announce that this was an improvement, I have to say that there’s certainly some opportunity out there for Bose.

Offering an interesting choice of bass modules, like you suggested, would also be a plus. Bass players are a finicky bunch, and don’t like to adapt. They want stuff that works for them right now. This could end that constant yearning for thump that I keep hearing, and make transportation and set up easier as well. I play keys, not bass, but I have a band with a bass player, and my son is now learning bass, so I’m getting into this a little.

Hmmm…….you mentioned a “double wide” stick. Now that could be an interesting deal for the digital keyboard player who insists on stereo! The stick would still have to be fairly light, which might take some doing.

I think that there are new things that Bose could come up with for sure…….

W.A.

quote:

Originally posted by Jazzman888:
...Bass players are a finicky bunch

Ain't that the truth. The guy in my band brings enough equipment to play Woodstock. I keep trying to "politely" suggest he only needs one cab for a 150-200 person venue, but he's not biting. Just picked him up (about two months) and don't want to cause friction, because he's a very versatile falsetto/background vocalist.

But, darn, (you know what I wanted to say...lol) I secretly turn down his rig, and he turns it back up, with a puzzled look on his face.

Too much bass spoils a good mix, actually, too much anything spoils a good mix, but when people's drinks are sloshing from the bottom-end, you know it's way too much.

I'm having a great time reading your banter guys, and I do hate to interrupt the flow, but I have a question.
I'm not understanding this:

quote:

I find the integration of point source amplification with the L1 to be no problem whatsoever, at least when the L1 is used with vocals. This is not recommended usage, but I think that an L1 shines when used in this capacity.

1) Not sure what you mean by "point source".
2) "at least when used with vocals", is the voice a point source, do other sources not work?
3) What is "not recommended" by Bose...the voice as a point source?

Dag nab it, I'm just not following (college dropout here).

P

It finally came to me...duh.
You meant multiple instruments all plugging into a single L1, I see.

Drumr,

No, I mean only the vocals being run through an L1.

By “point source” I mean either instruments amplified using traditional speakers, or un-amplified instruments.

“at least when used with vocals” means vocals amplified by an L1.

“Not recommended by Bose” refers to other than the recommended configuration, which is an L1 for every performer.


Dennismp,

Ha! You sound more like guy-from-Bose every day. Are you now making a case for the status quo (100 lbs of B1 modules)?

It also sounds like you have a management problem. Your secret solution has the potential of exacerbating the situation if it is discovered. Advice given to your bandmates will carry much more weight if they trust you. You will lose respect if you get caught.

Unfortunately the importance of maintaining credibility and trust is often not recognized until it is too late. But then, hopefully, it becomes a lesson learned………

W.A.

quote:

Originally posted by dennismp:

quote:

Originally posted by Jazzman888:
...Bass players are a finicky bunch

Ain't that the truth. The guy in my band brings enough equipment to play Woodstock. I keep trying to "politely" suggest he only needs one cab for a 150-200 person venue, but he's not biting. Just picked him up (about two months) and don't want to cause friction, because he's a very versatile falsetto/background vocalist.

That's such a nice advantage to the B1's - you can scale up or down to match the situation. I leave 2 of my 4 home all the time.

When I used to have my 4x10 it was either all or nothing.

Mike Z,

Many bass players have two amps, a big one and a small one, which addresses the need that you present.

It seems that it might benefit everybody concerned if some energy was redirected towards truly satisfying the needs of musicians, and away from trying to convince them that what you have available is what they need.

Acoustic guitar player/singers, at least those represented on online forums, love the L1, and with good reason. It suits their needs to a tee.

But this is not the case with bass players, and one can find all kinds of evidence of this on online forums as well. You have opportunity in that segment of the market that begs to be addressed.

Sincerely,
W.A.

quote:

Originally posted by Jazzman888:

It seems that it might benefit everybody concerned if some energy was redirected towards truly satisfying the needs of musicians, and away from trying to convince them that what you have available is what they need.

Making musicians lives better is why I'm here and what I do, and I'm extra interested in this topic since I'm also a bass player.

W.A and all - what would a better solution be for bass players in your view?


-Mike

I doubt that I can provide you with any fresh insight, Mike, but here’s what some bass players are saying:

Several have reported, on this forum and others as well, that they replaced their B1’s with a single bass cabinet from another manufacturer. They are L1 users, and are very happy with the concept and performance of the L1, but found that a third party bass cabinet improved performance. Here’s a link to a thread on the Talkbass forum where you will find a representative post (page 23):

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=389861&page=23

What is particularly interesting is that the bass cabinet mentioned (Schroeder 1201R) weighs 52 lbs., which is considerably lighter than 4 B1’s, and costs less as well. There is also a lighter version of this cabinet with otherwise identical specs that weighs only 40 lbs., and also costs less.

This is just one instance of this kind of discovery. There are more, some of which are right on this site. These folks followed their assessment with concrete actions. They replaced their B1’s. Their judgments were also independent, and they had nothing to gain from making them. Note the positive reaction from some of the other bass players on the forum. It was like, “Hey, this is interesting!”.

This doesn’t mean that this is the answer for everybody. Some bass players may prefer the sound of the B1’s. But no matter how one might judge the quality of the sound, it offers a lighter, possibly more efficient, and lower cost alternative that appears to have considerable appeal.

I really think that if you were given free reign to be as creative as you can be and design something without the usual corporate constraints, you could easily come with even better solutions that would address the needs of many bass players who walk away from existing Bose products.

Sincerely,
W.A.

A Light weight (as possible), powered MB12 would probably go a long way towards satisfing many who find the B1 route lacking for whatever reason.

We all know that you have to have more headroom from the L1/B1 system for those who want to have more lowend punch and stronger low frequencies. Regardless of the size of the low frequency driver, increasing the sensitivity of the driver/cab is one way to increase the low frequency ouput. I think some bass players have tried more sensitive cabinets than the B1 and found that it works for them. This also throws off the Bose spectral balance of the L1/B1 system.

I currently use an 8ohm passive B1 replacement with a 12" long throw driver that is about the same pack size as 2B1's. It has much higher sensitivity, weighs less than 33 lbs, and costs much less than 2B1's. Because of the higher sensitivity this passive sub has about the same output as 4xB1's. For vocals, guitars and keys the lowend had to be turned down to try and achieve the original L1/B1 spectral balance. For kickdrum and bass guitar the results were more lowend punch and stronger low frequencies than 2B1's. For those that can't get enough bass 2 of these subs running at 4ohms/pair would produce much more lowend than 4xB1's.

I'm sure Bose could create a more sensitive sub such as the one I have.
Of course it could be useful if the PS1 processors could recognise the "new sub" and perhaps reset the spectral balance on channels 1&2 for vocals and such, and leave the increased lowend on channels 3&4 for bass or drums.
Just my two cents......

Oooooo! This is getting real interesting.