Spun off from Making Customers Crazy

Moved Reply:

quote:

We felt that the routine, sometimes habitual use of effects -- sometimes the heavy use -- harmed the purity of what we were experiencing. And so we told people (I think pretty consistently) to try playing without them, at least to start. We wanted everyone else to experience the huge jump in clarity.

The "jump in clarity" is indeed huge. I have had more comments on people being able to finally hear and understand what we are singing.

A small down side, has been a few people, complaining that the system is too loud. Not because of DB levels which I monitor with an SPL meter at each gig, but because they can understand what is being said, it is no loner just background noise. I have actually talked with a few patrons, who commented "We came here to talk, since we can understand your every word, it is hard to tune you out of our conversation". I was not sure if I should say Thanks, Let's find you another table (which probably wouldn't help) or Come back again some time. I have visited the same places on other nights, with "Speaker on a stick bands" and you could only hear a loud, muddy sound. Go figure.

Since we do a number of Outdoor gig's around The Villages, we also notice and I am told by management, that we get more complaints from "You Bose performers". I actually measured sound travel on several nights with my SPL meter, and although most Bose systems, were quieter in DB level, at the outer fringes, you could still understand, the vocals and what was being said. The other systems were in fact (per the meter) louder, but sounded more like general background noise, with little ability to distinguish any clarity, vocals or conversation.

So while most all of us love the clarity, I think the clear sound travel (especially at outdoor gigs) needs to be taken into consideration. Sorry to jump off for a bit there, but the "huge jump in clarity", brought that to mind.

I believe, Cliff spent about 10 years perfecting the original L1 and I spent quite a few more reading the forum and listening to the pros and cons on the effects and other issues being addressed by Bose. I do understand the effects issue and have been used to adding a reverb or such to a Mackie mixer, especially for early Karaoke Gigs when I filled in. The L1 in an acoustic setting is marvelous by itself and singing dry in that mode is a real treat. When we have to do dancing, higher energy performances, especially with 50-60's type of songs, people seem to want it to sound like the original records, with reverb or delay to take them back to that era. I feel a strong element of the performance, is getting people into the mindset, of that music, with vocal inflections, the appropriate effects and a genuine focus with that genre. Some will call it "imitating or just covering a song". If done right, it create a "moment that the listener can relate to", a reason why they came and will come back. The clarity of the L1 makes it so much easier to do this.

Quite often, we try to not only sing/play a song, but we try to create a "Moment". Something that will stand out from the other songs and make people pay attention, because it is different from the rest of the show. The T1 has given us the ability, to "Bypass, Kick-in, Mute" or in some way make the next moment stand out from the others. The progress and constant attention to the needs, wants and ideas of the performing members of this group, is what has made me a lifetime customer of the Bose L1.

Moved Reply:

quote:

A small down side, has been a few people, complaining that the system is too loud. Not because of DB levels which I monitor with an SPL meter at each gig, but because they can understand what is being said, it is no loner just background noise. I have actually talked with a few patrons, who commented "We came here to talk, since we can understand your every word, it is hard to tune you out of our conversation". I was not sure if I should say Thanks, Let's find you another table (which probably wouldn't help) or Come back again some time. I have visited the same places on other nights, with "Speaker on a stick bands" and you could only hear a loud, muddy sound. Go figure.

Since we do a number of Outdoor gig's around The Villages, we also notice and I am told by management, that we get more complaints from "You Bose performers". I actually measured sound travel on several nights with my SPL meter, and although most Bose systems, were quieter in DB level, at the outer fringes, you could still understand, the vocals and what was being said. The other systems were in fact (per the meter) louder, but sounded more like general background noise, with little ability to distinguish any clarity, vocals or conversation.

I, too, have run into this problem, if you want to call it that. In a concert situation, or any situation where people came to hear you, the Bose is great. In those situations where you are live Muzak, it can be a problem for the reasons Joel mentioned above...you just can't get away from it.

Picture a solo guitarist unamplified, and what that sounds like, both volume and quality wise. Now imagine that guitarist is sitting at your table (playing at a low, normal volume). Now imagine trying to concentrate on the conversation with your spouse, and trying to block out the singing that you hear clearly and perfectly...it's difficult.

And I don't now what to do about that, except change venues to those where customers came to hear the music.

I suppose if the entire venue was of pretty much the same opinion, you could alter the EQ (remove highs and presence) to make your sound more "background", but you'd be "background" everywhere, and no one could hear clearly.

Personally, this is a problem I never saw coming....

Moved Reply:

quote:

I suppose if the entire venue was of pretty much the same opinion, you could alter the EQ (remove highs and presence) to make your sound more "background", but you'd be "background" everywhere, and no one could hear clearly.

Um, at the risk of sounding glib, you could add a bunch of reverb...

Moved Reply:

Hi Ken,

quote:

Um, at the risk of sounding glib, you could add a bunch of reverb...

First thought that came to my mind ...

Moved Reply:

Okay, I finally have to jump in here.

I think we all need to remember that we're playing in order to put ourselves at the service of the music. The instrument, the voice, the arrangement, all the nuances of stagemanship are there to enhance the emotional response of the listener to the music.

Some styles -- rockabilly, surf -- were originally presented to listeners with lots of reverb and delay on the vocals. Others -- blues, metal -- were presented with lots of distortion on the guitars. These styles call for those effects, unless you're consciously trying to reinterpret a song. The T1 gives you the flexibility to do what you want.

The styles of music I play these days (old time, new acoustic, jazz) don't usually call for any effects, and we don't use them in performance with the L1, even though we have a pair of T1s. We've never played in a space -- even outdoors -- where the ambience of the environment didn't provide sufficient reverb.

When I hear a mix that is too wet, I usually find myself drifting out the door after awhile. But that's simply a matter of taste.

One other thing to consider is the difference between original music and covers. Because most people haven't heard your original music before, it's critical that they hear and understand the lyrics. For those songs, less reverb is definitely better.

As for JoelHeck's vocals distracting listeners who want to have conversations, I guess you need to decide if your act is concert, dance, or background.

If you're a concert act with vocals, then people should be sitting there listening to you, and your job is to be so interesting that no one wants to talk. If listeners don't like it, they're in the wrong place.

If you're playing background music (for a cocktail party, reception, or bar), then you might be better off doing instrumentals. I love these gigs, and we have tons of jazz and bossa nova tunes to work out on while people schmooze. Some people listen intently, others find it easy to ignore us.

If you're a dance band doing covers, no one is listening much to the meaning of your vocals anyway. But I guess Joel is saying that the L1 projects so well that listeners just can't help giving you their attention. I wouldn't call that a problem, actually

--Rick

Moved Reply:

quote:

If you're a dance band doing covers, no one is listening much to the meaning of your vocals anyway. But I guess Joel is saying that the L1 projects so well that listeners just can't help giving you their attention. I wouldn't call that a problem, actually

The problem is, if they don't want to hear you they're going to tell the management that you're too loud (which actually you're not) and they'll ask you to turn down (which, in a sense you can't).

quote:

Um, at the risk of sounding glib, you could add a bunch of reverb...

Not sure what that would do. Yes, you'd seem more "distant" and far-off, but it would still be difficult to "get away from". I suppose you could find the "sweet spot" reverb adjustment...that could work. But to me, too much reverb is fatigueing.

I shall try it, however


It may be a talent issue...

Moved Reply:

I think this has been a problem since the first person figured out how to amplify sound. Some people will always think it is to loud and others not loud enough.

I had some freinds playing outside and got a noise complaint 2 miles away. It took the police 45 minutes to find them. The officer said when he stepped into this guys front yard you could hear everything clear as a bell. Out in the street you couldn't hear a thing.

Moved Reply:

It occurred to me as I was reading all this that there might be another solution (although keep in mind we've basically hijacked this thread! ):

If people thought you were too loud (as in too hard to ignore), you could always sing and play softer, as opposed to actually turning down. That's what you'd do if you were sitting at the previously mentioned table - you'd just play softer. You can do that with the Bose, and still be heard. Try that with a conventional system!

quote:

If you're a dance band doing covers, no one is listening much to the meaning of your vocals anyway. But I guess Joel is saying that the L1 projects so well that listeners just can't help giving you their attention. I wouldn't call that a problem, actually

The problem is, if they don't want to hear you they're going to tell the management that you're too loud (which actually you're not) and they'll ask you to turn down (which, in a sense you can't).

Keeping most customers and therefore management happy is a big part of the game.
I reference these examples, to try an bring your attention to the upside and downside of better clarity. Many people were wondering, especially around here, since we have entertainment at 12 to 18 venues most afternoons or evenings, and it has been brought up on the forum by members, why some folks think the Bose L1 is too loud. Others have mentioned the clarity issue. Most folks love the sound experience, but many venues, have at least one or two chronic complainers that have an issue, with volume, yet they don't request a seat further back or to the sides (although, that still might not help in their case).

In both personal experience and in researching this issue on behalf of several Restaurants and Country Club managers, I have measured and taken notes on the noise levels from a DB perspective, using an SPL meter. I've monitored this for my own gigs at 6 different venues, both indoors and out and 6 other bands, using both Bose L1 systems and speakers on a stick. Most often, the speaker on a stick was louder in decibels from a SPL meter standpoint, but muddier and lacked definition. The Bose L1 systems, were usually lower in decibels, but had much better clarity. This was reinforced by speaking with a large sample of listeners, who in sharing their opinions, gave the perception that the Bose wasn't necessarily loud, but harder to tune out of their conversations. Quite often, perception can be the reality of the situation.

When people get up and leave or request a different table or worse when neighbors near an outdoor venue that regularly has entertainment several nights a week, call the police (here its the sheriff and they must respond to the call), management rightly so, gets upset. They need to address the issue and weigh the issues against how many people do we bring in that stay, how can we deal with the problem and should I have that entertainer and their allegedly offending equipment back here.

Monitoring the levels outside to recommended limits (The Villages sound crew holds the Gazebos to 86-88 DB). Before monitoring, I had one "We'll call the police complaint", now with monitoring and a regular customer, who always sits at the side corner, (and has been there every Saturday and Sunday, since May), who will definitely let me know when it gets too loud, I have not had any one calling the Club threatening.

Indoors, the issue with monitoring (for me at least) has eased off to no complaints for the last 2 months. The awareness and actually walking around with a wireless mic in one hand and the SPL meter in the other (yes you occasionally get strange looks) actually helps, because people know you are willing to try and keep them happy. Sometimes the Hostess, makes a bad choice in seating, they don't know that the people who just came in are showing visiting friends their great new hometown, they want to show off the entertainment, yet they also want to talk and catch up on things. Seating them upfront just doesn't work out well, even when they are sitting 2 tables behind one that is able to talk on a cell phone, without getting up from their table while I am singing and people are less than 6 feet away from them dancing.

Tonight, I just finished up with 210 Parrot Heads, which is a very noisy group. I ran close to 86-90 db most of the night. Four tables were right out in front of me, less that 15 feet away, with people talking away not seeming to have any problems. They are used to this environment.

I feel by awareness and monitoring, I have learned to deal with this situation much better. Before I knew what was causing it or why there was this perception by some of the patrons, of being too loud, I simply got frustrated. This obviously does not help your attitude or your performance.

I hope this background helps some of the others who have expressed frustration with volume complaints.

Interesting discussion Joel. I've only had the experience of being told I was too loud once. And in that case, we were in reality just too loud.

Ok, my two cents...

Some times "too loud" is really too loud, but some times when the music is "too loud" it is really just out of balance. If I hear a band that is too loud, sometimes it is the lead vocal... or the bass... or (fill in the blank).

Did you ever sit in the audience and feel the pain everytime the guitarist took a solo but it was okay the rest of the time? Or cringe every time the girl singer went for the high note? Or jump out of your seat on a snare hit?

Another factor is overplaying. If everyone plays too busy (and sometimes sloppy) it is harder to talk over, and the complaints come in that you are too loud.

Another factor may be tempo. I play a lot of dinner music and I find that faster tempos interfere with dinner guests conversations.

I start out my dinner gigs with slower, less busy songs and build from there. At the end of the gig I am usually quite loud, fast and "busy" myself, but the crowd has had time to acclimate themselves to the music. Even with room turnover the new customers ride the curve with the rest of the people.

Parties and Dances need the same treatment, but you can ramp them up faster. If anyone says I am too loud, I have usually ramped up too fast. I usually reach for the volume knob of what I consider the loudest element of my music before I touch the master volume. Then the next song I play will be at a lower energy level. And then I start a slower ramp up.

I don't think I have experienced any L1 issues with too much clarity. But then again, I don't play very many rock concerts outdoors, and I bet the sound carries pretty far.

Cameron

I have found just a tad too much clarity might be a concern. I think the key is the volume. Some tables who that are closest to us will move back a table when available. I know we are not that loud, it's behind us 6' and it sounds good not overbearing.

I think it's to much clarity and when one turns up just a little can turn that switch on IMO as a new and proud L1,M1,B1,T1, owner!

Some people move away "just in case". I have had people come in and look at the piano while I am on break and ask to sit somewhere further away.

Let's face it, some musicians ARE too loud, and customers have been burned in the past.

People that know me ask to sit close to the piano because they trust me. If you get regulars asking to sit far away, then you might have a problem.

I still think this is not an L1 problem. Clarity is good. Playing "to the room" is the issue. We all want to play our hot songs, but sometimes it is just not the time and we have to wait.

A small down side, has been a few people, complaining that the system is too loud. Not because of DB levels which I monitor with an SPL meter at each gig, but because they can understand what is being said, it is no loner just background noise. I have actually talked with a few patrons, who commented "We came here to talk, since we can understand your every word, it is hard to tune you out of our conversation". I was not sure if I should say Thanks, Let's find you another table (which probably wouldn't help) or Come back again some time. I have visited the same places on other nights, with "Speaker on a stick bands" and you could only hear a loud, muddy sound. Go figure.
-----------------------------------------------
Yes absolutely- we do get complaints about being too loud when I have gone to the same venues with a decibel reader, and we are a lot lower in volume that the rest of the bands that don't use the L1.
Too much clarity being the issue.
While I love it, it is normal that if the manager can hear you clearly at the end of the venue they assume that you are way too loud.
Also have had particular problems with people using hearing aids, even when they are sitting the farthest from the band.

Perhapps Bose needs to upgrade the L1's with an "ADD MUD" button so that those patrons will feel at home.

I know... get a T1 (or any mixer with EQ) and plug your mic into it.

Roll off a lot of highs.

Instant mud.

I'm not kidding. I bet I can get my L1 to sound like listening to a speaker-on-a-pole off axis.

Interesting subject

Maybe those "hearing aids" are reacting to the "mids ann highs"

Since we have been using the Model2 and Compact I have found that the sound is "bright" and maybe that is the difference. I have lowered our mids and highs a bit and that really "mellows" out the Bose sound to what I feel is "rich" and "velvet" smooth. Very Very pleasing to the ear.

Just my two cents.
AJ
Music is neither new or old it just "is"

quote:

Originally posted by AJ:
Interesting subject

Maybe those "hearing aids" are reacting to the "mids ann highs"

Since we have been using the Model2 and Compact I have found that the sound is "bright" and maybe that is the difference. I have lowered our mids and highs a bit and that really "mellows" out the Bose sound to what I feel is "rich" and "velvet" smooth. Very Very pleasing to the ear.

Just my two cents.
AJ
Music is neither new or old it just "is"

This has been my experience as well. These systems are so clear that I find the perception (from some in audience) is that I'm louder than I actually am. When I make a slight adjustment to the mids/highs down just a bit, they perceive that I've turned the volume down, when in fact, I have not. Truthfully, I prefer it with a bit of 'velvet' anyway.

TJW

quote:

This has been my experience as well. These systems are so clear that I find the perception (from some in audience) is that I'm louder than I actually am. When I make a slight adjustment to the mids/highs down just a bit, they perceive that I've turned the volume down, when in fact, I have not. Truthfully, I prefer it with a bit of 'velvet' anyway. Smile

Hi TJW

I know this works because...."are you ready for this one? ) My dog used to run for the hills when we rehearsed at home even when volume levels where moderate. When I reduced the mids and the highs to get that "richer, smooth Velvet" sound she came back and now lays on her pillow right in front of the Bose. So I figured the dog must know something about sound and I kept the settings there and so far the audiences agree with my dog! They even sit close to the Bose. Bow Wow! LOL!