I would like to give a rundown of my experiences with Bose and the PAS.

1. Endorsing several other hardware and software companies I must say that Bose’s customer service is excellent. Having read the posts on this forum extensively it is quite obvious that the Bose techs take a very active approach in helping their customers. Unfortunately this is not the norm in the rest of the “gear” industry. It is also rare to have techs so approachable by phone. Bravo to Bose.

2. I feel that the PAS has a very good overall sound. The dispersion is, as advertised, very spacious and clear. As already noted elsewhere, line arrays are not new, but Bose has packaged the line array idea into a self-contained package. The system is well thought-out, sturdy, and easy to setup/teardown. Once again…bravo to Bose

3. The marketing of the product causes me some concern. I have read numerous quotes from Bose representatives on the forum stating things such as “the PAS gives control of the music back to the musicians.”, and “when musicians have control of their own sound they will naturally adjust their levels to create a proper mix”. While in a perfect world this would occur, I do not think it is entirely realistic to expect this from most musicians. Having worked and performed with major sound companies such as Clair Brothers all the way down to the local soundman with a $500 Peavey system, I can tell you from experience that most musicians are sorely lacking in ensemble mixing skill. If you listen to most band demos (in which the musicians’ have total control) you will undoubtedly often hear excessive drums…if the guy mixing it was a drummer. Vocals too loud…if the singer mixed it or paid for the demo, etc. ad nauseum. All it takes is listening to the on-stage fights between band members when they are setting stage volume levels (where they have complete control). “Your guitar is too loud!” “No, it isn’t, turn your bass down!” Not to mention players with high-end hearing loss who are constantly cranking everything to hear themselves. This is not a fault of a “three-way system”. It is based on the simple fact that many musicians are not very good engineers. I’ve sat in my studio waiting for band members to quit fighting about the individual levels in a mix. If they can’t agree in a studio setting where they have complete control, they certainly won’t agree on stage. Mixing, and music in general, is subjective. Obviously as the caliber of musicianship rises this type of naiveté is reduced. I applaud Bose for trying to educate musicians on the fundamentals of good mixing, however there appears to be a preponderance of players who think an out of tune Mexican Strat through a Digitech RP10 floor pedal distorted beyond all belief is the epitome of great sound. Not all players have the skill to mix themselves, and if you get one player in a band onstage with some wacked out levels and everyone is using PAS systems with no FOH engineer, the mix is going to be sub-par with no one to fix it. It is also notable to mention that at more upscale “corporate” venues (Caesar’s Palace, House Of Blues, etc.) you would not be allowed to bypass the house system and use a stage full of PAS’s. These types of venues are certainly not willing to risk their reputations on the belief that “musicians should control their own mix and will accurately set their own levels.” BTW, my main bag is not live engineering so I’m certainly not some guy worried about being put out of a job by the PAS…LOL
4. Having the PAS behind you is a great idea with certain qualifications. I read a post where a customer was being warned, and rightfully so, that spl in excess of 100 db is very damaging. It should be noted that spl anywhere above 80 db can cause damage. It is important to stress the dangers of excessive monitor levels whether it be a PAS or a conventional system. I don’t use a monitor for solo/duo shows for this very reason. I found that placing the PAS at the front of the stage worked best for me and protected my ears. Regrettably high FOH spl’s are somewhat unavoidable in a “dance” setting.
5. For my personal situation I was attempting to use the PAS in a way not specifically intended…as a PA system for several of my solo/duo acts. Apparently many on the forum, including DJ’s, are using the system in this manner. Bose has been very forthright in explaining that the PAS is designed for venues of roughly 300-500. The physics of projection vs. wattage obviously can only be stretched so far. My main concern for my personal situation was the limited headroom for transients. The protection limiter in the PAS system is quite noticeable when it engages…a very “hard-knee” sounding compression. Obviously this is there to protect the system, but in a large dance crowd where I may be pulling 90db at 6 feet, having the compressor kick in noticeably when a vocal transient occurs is undesirable. I would prefer to not squash the signal coming from my mixer with excessive amounts of compression, thereby robbing the music of any dynamics in order to prevent the system limiter from kicking in. Unfortunately I am seeking an all purpose system. A single L1/B1 would be wonderful for 50% of my 200 shows a year. A 2 L1/2 B1 system would be wonderful for 25% of the shows. The problem lies in the remaining 25% of shows which involve either large rooms, large dance crowds or both. Running an ever-increasing number of B1 modules will not correct the problem (not to mention becoming almost as much of a transport hassle as moving a conventional system), and the system was obviously not designed to handle these situations. This is obviously not what Bose designed the system for and I certainly do not fault them because the system will not completely fill my needs. My hope would be that, as hinted at by Kenneth Jacob, chief engineer of the company's professional systems division in a Mix magazine article, Bose will “extend the technology in both directions — that is, bigger and smaller." A higher wattage system would give me the desired headroom and perhaps negate the need for 2 L1, thereby bypassing any frequency cancellation issues. I will anxiously anticipate further additions/upgrades to this product line, as I think it is a wonderful system that is oh so close to fulfilling all my needs. If I was only doing coffee houses, restaurants, etc. it would be perfect. WOW, I’m sorry this was so long, but I wanted to give a fair and complete account of my experiences with the PAS. Thanks!

Hi Pete, just keep in mind that ANY time you have ringing after a show damage has been done. I wish you well!

I would beg to differ. I am more on the Ken-at-bose side of the fence - I believe most musicians have a NATURAL instinct for ensemble playing. For many it has been buried, warped, twisted, put aside and ignored due to the triple systems of past few decades...but it's still in there and it wants to come out.

I was watching a show on PBS a few weeks ago, and a record producer made a comment about all the recordings done prior to the late 60's, and how they were essentially live captures of a performance. His quote was that "giants walked the earth back then" simply because they could play live and mix themselves and get through an entire song without any mistakes. Well, I think they're still walking today. Maybe technology, and the music industry in general, has made them appear dwarfed - but they're here.

I can speak from experience when I tell you that the mixing works. I play in multiple bands - from "weekend warrior" guys that most would consider rudimentary musicians, to pro level guys playing some of the "corporate" venues that you mentioned, like House of Blues, BB King's - which, by the way, the house monitor system sounds absolutely HORRIBLE compared to the PAS...not to mention the FOH mud...but you're right about that - they would rather have it sound like crap with their system, than to sound great with ours.

Every single one of the musicians that I associate with, that have had a chance to get familiar with the PAS has evolved. It took some longer than others, and there are varying degrees of progress - but every single one of them has learned to mix themselves. Some to tremendous heights. A couple guys that were ALWAYS too loud are now listening to the mix and finding their spot. The stage sound / mix / monitor blend on stage is FAR superior to any I've heard in my 35+ years of heavy gigging.

The reason that you haven't heard musicians be able to mix themselves on "conventional" systems, is because - well... you were hearing them on conventional systems. Put them on the PAS for a couple of months...it does take a little time, and some re-learning, and un-doing many years of what has been done to us. But it does work.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: gittar-jonz,

Hi, thanks for the reply. I wasn't referring to musicians using "conventional" systems. I was referring to musicians sitting in a room listening to a mix on a set of Genelec Studio Monitors fighting about who should be loudest. This was, of course, a situation where every player had complete mix control (like the PAS). Obviously every musician is different. I would counter that for every "Giant" from back in the day there were also a fair share of "midgets". Have you ever listened to late 50's recordings from some lesser known (and greater known) musicians? Some of these "live captures of a performance" should like absolute garbage. And I'm not speaking about production values. Once again, music is subjective. To say that all musicians "have a NATURAL instinct for ensemble playing" is like saying that all singers have a "NATURAL instinct" for pitch or all drummers have a "NATURAL instinct" for tempo. Clearly this is not the case. Will the PAS help a lot of players to play better and balance their levels? I'm sure it will. Will it miraculously release hidden primordial "Instincts" in every player? I would say not.

Point taken. But even the highest paid, most in-demand recording engineers on the planet would sit together in a room and fight about a final mix. Listen to two songs on the radio, one will be booming with bass guitar, the next it will be barely audible...but they're both "good" professional mixes...like you said, it's very subjective. It has nothing to do with experience or status of the engineers - they just have different approaches.

I've played on many, many stages of many different sizes - and I've yet to meet a FOH engineer that can represent MY music better than me or my band can. I know that there are a few good ones out there, but the vast majority of "house" sound guys that I've encountered try so hard to "fix" the mix to what THEY think it should be, that they end up butchering it.

The bottom line for me is, although we aren't perfect, and we make mistakes, I would MUCH rather have my band's music mixed by US than some stranger sitting 50 feet away, who has no idea who we are, and couldn't care less. He's never heard the songs, doesn't know anything about the band, and CAN'T EVEN HEAR THE MONITORS that he's allegedly "mixing".

I've been on both sides of this fence. I've played for years through "conventional" systems at the local VFW and on Don Law stages - and even on the "big money" stages, the sound on stage has always been a cluttered mess compared to US mixing OURSELVES through the PAS.

In all honesty, the past several months (since becoming an all PAS band) have been a complete musical joy for me, because we have NEVER sounded better - because we have full control over our sound.

"But even the highest paid, most in-demand recording engineers on the planet would sit together in a room and fight about a final mix."

My point exactly...at a show there's generally only one FOH engineer...not 5 or 6 on stage with 5 or 6 ideas about what the mix should sound like.

Bottom line; if it works for you...that's great. It is unfortunate that you have had such sub-par engineers. Our in-ears give us the same monitor mix everytime, every show thanks to scene recall, and I always take one of my trusted engineers on tour with us...that's one cook in the kitchen who knows what we want and how to get it...

werx, it's great that you have an engineer that you can trust, but you are in the vast minority, for sure. I've done well over 5000 gigs in my nearly 40-year career, and the PAS is a dream come true for the self-financed, self-produced musician. While you may be right about some musicians being unable to come to an agreement about the balance, that will always be the case. What has changed is the fact that a group with strong leadership will have a much easier time getting the balance they need on stage with the PAS than with a conventional system run by a conventional soundman. I have had countless shows destroyed by the idiots that run the board in spite of very specific instructions, and I have had to quit lucrative situations because of the attitudes and incompetency of sound techs. That era, for me and my compatriots, is over now. The learning curve is not very steep unless your attitude sucks, which does happen, but that just means getting a player with a good attitude. What's bad about that? And even in the big venues with their own FOH people and policies, what's to prevent anyone from using the PAS as their onstage backline? The few times I've done this have worked superbly from the band's point of view; this way, if the house sound is bad, the client can take it up with the house tech. But monitor mixes never again need to be argued about, and ostage volume is entirely controllable. Outside of very small rooms with audiences of fewer than 50, I'll never do a gig without my PAS again. I own three, so we can cover most any gig up to an 8-piece band in a room of 500 people. Set up in 20, break down in 25. Again, I have to say that you are in the tiniest minority if you get the sound you like every night with a sound tech mixing for you. As for me, I finally get to sound like my CDs in a live situation without spending ridiculous bread for in-ears and so on.

Gentlemen,
Another point I have noticed that differentiates the PAS from a conventional system; with a conventional system, excessive volume on the part of one musician many times leads to distortion. This has a tendency to drown out the other instruments. The lack of distortion in the Bose system allows all the instruments to be heard, even when someone is slightly overdriven in the mix. It just seems to me that levels are not as critical with this system, which makes it much easier for players to be responsible for their own volumes and still get a good mix. And since individual players can hear themselves much more clearly, it does tend to cause "problem players" to turn down.It has certainly solved our "volume wars" problems; what can I say, it works!

Jeff
www.theunmentionables.com

Thanks for the reply ronjazz. If your players are competent at mixing their own levels for a pleasing ensemble level then I would counter that you are also in the "tiniest minority". Case in point - During our 2 week tour the beginning of April, we had an off night and went to see a band who happened to be using the PAS (5 piece standard rock/blues). The sound was very spacious and also very badly mixed. The guitar player's sound was quite shrill and "digital" sounding and of course with no competent FOH engineer there was nothing that could be done about it. The vocals were so buried as to be unintelligle, etc. I still contend that there are BAD engineers and there are BAD musicians. Add either or both to a mix and you've got a problem.

Thanks for the reply holliwil. The only time you should have any type of distortion through a PA is if the system is sub-par (underpowered) or not operated properly. The PAS defeats overall distortion by the use of its internal limiter. The limiter kicks in with a hard knee compression/limiting. You can achieve this same effect by placing a quality compressor on the master insert of any PA.

To reiterate, if the PAS was scaled larger (more powerful/more headroom) I would purchase one immediately for my solo/duo work. However, I think you must always exercise caution when making all-inclusive statements that a product is the end-all/be-all. There is always a human element, and I think that in band situations you should exercise good judgement and caution. Unfortunately most bands don't do this. Too many cooks in the kitchen. Orchestras have a conductor not just for reasons of tempo. It is also for dynamics. If every player made their own decisions about dynamic levels you would generally have chaos. If you have a bad conductor you will have chaos...I say it again; there are BAD engineers and there are BAD musicians. Add either or both to a mix and you've got a problem.

wezx, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and that is highly respected on this board. The difference is, you are THINKING about it, and we are LIVING it. Myself, ronjazz, holliwil and hundreds of others see and hear it firsthand at every gig and rehearsal. You can hypothesize all you want, but the REALITY is that the PAS allows a band to hear each other with a clarity that has been completely unobtainable before. Because the musicians can actually be a part of the mix on stage, for the first time ever, they are much more in tune with operating as a UNIT. In-ear monitors alienate a performer from his bandmates as well as the audience... you're just playing your parts for you, and leaving it to the soundguy to sort it all out. Standard floor wedges and sidefills just contribute to the chaotic mess and blasting of "more me" on stage. I've tried them all - the PAS cannot even be compared to those other methods...it's in a league of its own.

I do understand your skepticism. I've done my fair share of contributing to stage wars over the years. But not anymore. I agree that a lot of musicians, when in a "conventional" set up of backline amps, monitors and FOH, will fight to hear themselves, and fight to try to hear everything else over the chaotic mess on stage. We all lived that for many years. But if you put those same musicians in a situation where the stage volume is a very pleasant mix of the band, and you can hear everything clearly, you'll see those very same people start taking responsibility for their part of the mix.

The real bottom line is, you THINK that it can't work, and we KNOW that it does.

And just for the record, I do agree with most of your other points. I've made my own criticisms about the headroom and limiter, and quite a few other things - and I'm anxious to see what version 2 holds in store. But I just can't agree with the mixing thing. It's like someone who's never seen my car telling me that it doesn't run - but I'm the one driving it every day...I know it works.

Did you bother to read my initial post???!!! I had 2 PAS systems for 3 weeks worth of shows!!! As mentioned in my last post I've also witnessed the system being used by others in a live situation with less than stellar results (more from musician error than any fault of the PAS)! My points are made AFTER using the product. My comments about "stage wars" as you call them are from first-hand observations - not my own on-stage experiences. My players are hired and paid a salary...I don't have any "stage wars" because I hire a better caliber of player...so my comments are general in nature, but I can assure you because I've witnessed it...the PAS does not negate the possibilty of a "stage war"...if it did in your case...great, then you have a valid testimony about your particular situation. My caution is against broad, universal, end-all, be-all "this will work for everyone in every situation" type of generalizations.

As I've said repeatedly, if it works for you...that's awesome. Keep in mind that if you leave the cozy confines of the Bose forum you will find a great many people who are raising the exact same questions I am. To say that all musicians have a "natural instinct" to mix themselves properly is as inane a statement as saying that all singers have a "natural instinct for pitch or that all drummers have a "natural instinct" for tempo. Obviously they don't.

Regarding your comment "In-ear monitors alienate a performer from his bandmates as well as the audience"...I wonder if you have used a properly configured in-ear system? Good systems account for room/audience ambience and allow the musicians to set all their own in-ear levels. It is never left up to a "soundguy".

quote:

Originally posted by wezx:
Our in-ears give us the same monitor mix everytime, every show thanks to scene recall,

wezx

Well I haven't weighed in here because I don't play in a band, only solo.

I don't want to seem like I'm piling on either.

But.... based on your quoted statement I suspect part of the problem is, you are as good as you want to be, there is no room for improvement.

I have been playing for many years and even though I think the PAS is the best I have ever heard myself on stage I still go out each time with the idea that I can make it better.

You stated that you used the PAS in front of you, had you used it for three weeks with it behind you, your impression might be a different one.

The only thing tougher than convincing someone like you that the PAS is a good thing, is convincing those like myself that it is not.

I would suggest that you give it another try. Use a double bass setup. If it only works for half of your 200 shows this year, thats 200 hours of time saved, and with the big dollars a player of your stature makes, a small price to pay for the convenience.

Oldghm

PS. If you spend half of those 200 saved hours in your studio at $25. an hour, then it's like getting the system free. You can't lose.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Oldghm,

Let's get some clarity here;

1. I have never stated nor tried to convince anyone that the PAS is "not a good thing". Read my first post. I like the PAS very much, but because of some limitations it will not work all-inclusively.
2. I used the PAS in a number of different configurations and side by side real world comparisons, not just "in-front of me".
3. "with the big dollars a player of your stature makes, a small price to pay for the convenience" - Successful musicians have money because they don't waste $2000/$4000 on a system that will not give them the most return for their investment.

4. Most of the furor here has been raised because I refuse to join the marketing juggernaut that would have us believe that all musicians have a "natural instinct" for ensemble playing. I'll say it again (though no one seems to want to respond to it) To say that all musicians have a "natural instinct" to mix themselves properly is as inane a statement as saying that all singers have a "natural instinct" for pitch or that all drummers have a "natural instinct" for tempo.

Conclusion: The bose PAS is a very well-designed system that will work exceptionally in some situations, with some limitations in some situations, and not at all in some situations.

If it works for you in your situation, that's great. Don't discount the experiences of someone who found it lacking.

The Forum topic here is "What Do You Think of This New Approach?" I attempted to answer that question. I guess the forum topic should say "What Do You Think Of this New Approach Only if You Agree With Us."

quote:

Originally posted by wezx:

The Forum topic here is "What Do You Think of This New Approach?" I attempted to answer that question. I guess the forum topic should say "What Do You Think Of this New Approach Only if You Agree With Us."

Absolutely not.

We value every opinion and for me, personally, the problem areas are very important since it helps us to make the system even better.

Sometimes things can get a little passionate, but having an open an honest discussion is IMO the best way to learn and expand everone's horizon.

This is an interesting and important discussion to have and I would urge everyone to not take any disagreements in opinion personal. I'd like to add my own 5 cents but have to run to band practice now. Tomorrow then.

quote:

Did you bother to read my initial post???!!! I had 2 PAS systems for 3 weeks worth of shows!!!

I went back and read you initial post again, to give you the benfit of the doubt that I may have missed something. My eyes might be really tired, but I still missed where you told us you had those systems for that amount of time. My apologies if I missed it yet again.

I had gotten the impression from your initial post "For my personal situation I was attempting to use the PAS in a way not specifically intended…as a PA system for several of my solo/duo acts" that you are an agent/promoter/sound rental co. trying to use the system as a PA for a number of revolving acts that don't have the time to acclamate to it. I never got the impression that you actually had a chance to try it as a performer, the way it was intended - as a personalized amplification system for the performing musician.

And I'm really quite amazed that your solo and duo performers couldn't mix themselves. I can understand full bands needing time to work it out, but solos and duos usually take to the system like fish to water.

And just to clarify a couple of things: Regarding the band you saw - Maybe it was their first gig with it, maybe they're just a lousy band...the system can't make a lousy guitarist play better. There will always be lousy bands.

And about the in-ears: I wasn't saying that the "sound guy" was in charge of them. My point was that you are in your own bubble - you're making a mix for yourelf - to hear yourself. It has absolutely no correlation to what is coming out of the mains, and what the audience is hearing. Everybody is making their own different mixes to please themselves. But what comes out of the FOH is "left to the sound guy to sort out" and mix however he/she wants - and has nothing to do with what you are hearing on stage in your "perfect" mix.

quote:

Originally posted by wezx:
4. Most of the furor here has been raised because I refuse to join the marketing juggernaut that would have us believe that all musicians have a "natural instinct" for ensemble playing. I'll say it again (though no one seems to want to respond to it) To say that all musicians have a "natural instinct" to mix themselves properly is as inane a statement as saying that all singers have a "natural instinct" for pitch or that all drummers have a "natural instinct" for tempo.

"

I think we all know that musical ability was not handed out equally among all those who pick up instrument or mic. One of the reasons I don't play in a band, is I wouldn't want to spend a lot of time with players not as good as me, and I am intimidated by those who are good enough that I would like to play with them, but that's a personal problem.

I started a thread a while back titled "Pas does not Guarantee Great sound". There are people with the system that haven't learned to use it, just like there are those who can't set up a conventional system. There will always be different levels of competency among the players, and engineers who work for them. I, and many like me, believe that the PAS offers the easiest and best solution for players to sound good and improve their chops at the same time.

If I was in a band, would I want the FOH engineer to just turn down the one who doesn't sound good or doesn't fit in? How does one learn to mix themselves if someone else controls everything? If our momma hadn't laid the fork down in front of us we might still be waiting for someone to feed us.

wezx, no offense is intended here, If you go back to my posts from last August/September you will find many of the same ideas, doubts, and reservations as you have expressed, the difference is I kept on trying till I got it right.

Those who are the greatest proponents of this Bose System know very well it is not the be all / end all solution for every situation and every player, but, when used as suggested, there really is nothing that compares to its simplicity of setup, or clarity and dispersion of sound. In the end that is what most working musicians are after.

Comments about the PAS, whether negative or positive, should be referenced in context. I have spent 1000's and 1000's of hours in front of, behind, to the side, even under, many speakers, and nothing, I repeat, nothing compares to the PAS when used as intended, for the clear reproduction of vocals and acoustic guitar.

You can get similar response I'm sure from other acoustic string instrument players, electric guitarist, keyboardist, bass players, brass and woodwind players and drummers.

If your intention is to continue to sound the way you do now, the PAS is not for you. If one plays with it long enough they will become better, cleaner, more attentive, more courteous players. This is not "marketing juggernaut", that's fact.

I think part of the reason so many have jumped in here is, some of your doubts and assertions are a result of not enough time with the system. Because the system didn't perform for you doesn't mean it won't perform for others, and those of us who are very happy with the way it performs, want you to realize the potential as well.

I still believe a successful musician who is taking care of his money, especially one who has other endeavors that take up valuable time can't lose with the purchase of the PAS.

Oldghm

My full-time gigging/working opinion is that the PAS pretty much works as advertised. If it doesn't work out for you, that's fine too. HAND...

Oldghm, you once again shine your light into what was becoming a dark corridor. I feel compelled to add that the majority of my ranting has not been in defense of the Bose system so much as it is in defense of human musicians. The PAS just happens to be the first tool that allows amplified musicians the chance to mix themselves on stage, so it obviously plays a major role in my debate.

I have no issue at all with someone who doesn't like the system, or can't make it work for their needs. I do have issue with gross underestimation of the caliber of most working musicians.

The core of my stance is that the majority of experienced musicians, given the opportunity, the proper tools, and some time to learn to use them, are quite capable of contributing to a great mix. And the potential can't be judged by "what used to be". It's a whole new world, and there are new tools available. Men couldn't fly before the Wright Brothers, either, but given the proper tools...

OK, let me try this as simply as possible;

1. My concerns with the PHYSICS of the system are as mentioned in my original post i.e. headroom, frequency cancellation/dual mono issues, etc. If you read my original post you would see that my overall opinion of the system was positive.

2. My concerns with the MARKETING of the system are a completely seperate issue. "there will always be lousy bands"...wow, that's my point exactly! And I'll bet "lousy bands" don't have the "natural instinct" to mix themselves which will be quite a problem for the audience and the venue owner. "The system can't make a lousy guitarist play better". Exactly...and the system can't make a lousy guitarist magically know how to mix. So lets have a marketing campaign that tells every lousy player around "hey, screw the soundman, you have a "natural instinct" to mix yourself. And here's a system so you can unleash that "natural instinct".

3. None of the solo/duo acts or myself had any problems "mixing ourselves". For a solo/duo situation those are not my concerns (see point #1 above). I operate several bands and solo/duo acts as well as performing extensively. ONCE AGAIN, my issues with the system for solo/duo have nothing to do with mixing!!! The mixing issue has to do with the marketing (#2 above)

Me asking you if you read my initial post was because of the fact that while I didn't mention the specific time period I used the PAS I made it abundantly clear that I was making an assessment AFTER having used the product and yet you stated "you are THINKING about it, and we are LIVING it" which is obviously an inference on your part that I had never used the system. This is what "did you even read my original post?" meant. You may be the one "driving your car everyday", but I don't see where that means you get to tell everyone else on the planet that we have to buy a car just like yours or we're out of touch.

"left to the sound guy to sort out and mix however he/she wants" As I've said before, it is quite unfortunate that you have had such lousy soundmen. It will also be unfortunate when lousy bands buy PAS Systems because of the hype telling them they can mix themselves because of the "natural instinct" hidden deep within them and proceed to go out and sound like the band I mentioned hearing. Well at least then maybe their mix will sound like their music.

And finally, as I said earlier it certainly seemed to me that the Forum Topic "What Do You Think of This New Approach?" was so that the "at Bose" folks could get some feedback from people who had used the system. My original post was polite, had both pro and con points and ended with my hope that a future model would address my concerns so that I could then purchase it. But I'll tell ya, I refuse to tow the party line like some kind of lemming.

And to Hilmar, I would be very happy to discuss my concerns with you in an attempt to make the product better (the more than obvious intent of my original post) but I'm growing extremly weary of trying to stay objective under the onslaught of blind devotion I've witnessed here.

Conclusion (AGAIN): The bose PAS is a very well-designed system that will work exceptionally in some situations, with some limitations in some situations, and not at all in some situations. If anybody can argue with the logic of that last sentence...knock yourself out.

"Men couldn't fly before the Wright Brothers, either, but given the proper tools..."

Yeah, and the Titanic was unsinkable, right?

It seems to me after reading the guys original post, that he really liked the system, but would need a few changes for it to really work for him. I don't see what's wrong with that. So he has some qualms about the marketing...honestly, so do I, but he was polite about it and he's right...just because everyone here can mix their own band's sound like they went to Full Sail doesn't mean everyone can. If I was a club owner I'd definately be real concerned about lame bands coming in with several PAS's and telling the house soundguy to take a hike. I think that was the point being made. If nobody can express concerns about the system without being talked down to as if they're a "have-not" then it's not really a forum...it's just cheerleading.