Well, I stumbled into this exciting new concept
recently at my local music store. I have read most of the posts/discussions and anything else I could find about the PAS.

Kudos to Bose! It sounds like exactly what our 5 piece band is looking for.

My concerns, as the technology seems to be about 2 years old, is how many upgrades/tweaks
have been made to the original design. We've all been stung by the never-ending upgrades to
various technologies. No sooner you invest in
verion 1, then it's improved to version 2 etc.
Your investment goes sour very quickly.

Another observation, in many of the posts, is the quality of the bass tones. Has Bose addressed this issue? I realize this is subjective to the individual listener, but there seems to be a lot of negative comments
(bass players)regarding the lower tone/sound replication.

I'd curious if Bose has anything 'in-the-works'
that will be announced 46 days after I make my PAS purchase!

George, Once you guys get the units you won't be
very worried about upgrades. I got my units in dec 03 and I have the upgrade kit and have not been in a hurry to reprograme my pas units.
Why? Because the pas is just that outstanding!
On the bass thing if your bass player or drummer want more bass then get a powererd sub.
A small one! Big AL..

Thanks Al.
I've dealing with some techno-phobic guitarists.

We've all been stung with music technology that became near valueless when
the manufacturer introduced version 2.

Buying 2 or 3 PAS's isn't cheap.

Your comments are appreciated!
George

Hi George,

I'm glad to hear of your interest and I'd also like to officially welcome you to this community.

Which music store did you hear about this (just curious)?

When you talk about some negative opinions from bass players, were those opinions expressed here or on some other forum? Bass players are some of our most enthusiastic customers: they're actually buying the product in higher numbers than their percentage of the overall musician market would predict. We've also heard some dynamite things from them about tone. I believe that the number of folks who have actually used the product who still complain about bass is small. The number who LOOK at the product and complain is probably much higher. Overall reaction to the B1 bass module from players of all stripes has been incredibly positive, with a few folks expressing less than stellar reactions.

As to your investment I can relate. However, if you look at the history of Bose products, I do not think what's true for the market at large is true. We work very very hard in research to come up with what the market judges to be breakthroughs. We put everything into making a super high quality product that will last and last and last (I have a 15-year old Acoustic Wave Music System, with cassette player, and 12 year-old Lifestyle music system in my home). When new products become available -- again much less frequently on average than the industry -- existing products maintain a very high value.

The first sales took place 11/1/03, so the product has been in the marketplace for about 15 months. Let previous Bose products be your guide and I believe you will make a very wise investment.

Hey there Curious George,

My thoughts on obsolecence:

• It's not obsolete if it is still cost effective use it rather than replace it
  - I've got a bunch of gear that is obsolete because it was cheaper to buy something newer that did a better job
  - I've got a bunch of instruments that will likely never be obsolete
  
• Play through the Bose system for awhile and you may find (as I have) that it is more like an instrument than a piece of gear
  
• Most of my obsolete gear (especially the electronic stuff) has fallen into disuse because:
  - The sounds that they produce are no longer of use to me.
  - The sounds aren't part of my current approach to music. (e.g. Metal, Grunge)
  - The application for which I bought them is not longer required. (e.g. Vocal harmonizers)
  - In other words the gear had a very narrow focus or application
  

Okay, let's look at the Bose system.
If history is any example, every piece of Bose gear I have ever purchased is still in service (except for warranty replacements).
- Even my venerable 802's, though no longer appropriate for my needs, have found a good home and are appreciated for what they do.

This new Bose system is the most versatile piece of gear I've ever used. It serves as my:

• backline guitar amp (with a little processing at the front end)
  
• vocal amp (which because of the way it handles vocals, made my vocal processors unnecessary)
  
• powered speaker system (using a mixer to handle a host of other musicians in "open stage" situations, and for my band's horn/string section when they join us).
  
• acoustic guitar amp (replacing several different amps and processors I had for this purpose).
  
• bass amp (a little compressor at the front end seems to help but not strictly necessary)
  
• studio system (I used to have two of everything (amps, processors, etc.) - one for the studio and one for the road). These things set up and tear down so fast, there's no reason not to "store" them, set up in the studio.
  
• This *is* my rig. I don't play venues bigger than the target 300-500 people. I also play little gigs and I have never felt the system was too big for the room. (try saying *that* about a Boogie Mark IV or Marshall stack)
  

If Bose brought out a new version tomorrow, I might get it simply to be supportive of the innovation.
It's not perfect for everything, but I play guitar and sing (solo, duo, in 4 piece, in an 8 piece, run the occasional open stage, have parties for all my musician buddies to get together and jam), and have as yet to be disappointed. I am frequently in awe at what these things will do.

If you look at the history, Bose gear delivers value and is durable, and this case is so versatile, I can't imagine anything that could follow the current system that would nullify its intrinsic value. I look forward to the experience every time I think of playing.

Oh - I'm beginning to talk about it the way I speak of my favourite instruments.

edit - typing -

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

George,

Ken and St are right on the money!
Forget the small sub idea! I should not have EVEN mentioned it! ken could have blanked my check on that one. Do you guys have an guitar center near you? If you do how do you feel about going to one and checking an unit or two? AL... IT'S ONLY money!!!!!

Hi George - I was at the "official" debut presentation of this system in Oct. '03, and immediately started saving my money to convert my band. We've been using 3 systems for a six piece classic rock band since the summer of '04, and have been very happy with its performance.

Here's what I can tell you about your concerns from my experience with both the product, and the people that make it:

Technology does change rapidly, and it is something to be aware of. As great as this product is, I'm sure it will undergo some changes and modifications over time. As it stands right now, it is a very good system that does everything it claims to do. Is it perfect? No. Are there things that can be improved upon? Sure. If you've seen any of my posts, you've probably read my opinion about the awkward interface. And I may even be one of the people you refer to that thought we needed more low end thump. But here's the deal - I HOPE that they keep improving it. This thing is as revolutionary as the Model A Ford was, and I hope it goes through as many innovative changes and upgrades as possible. And even in its current form, it will do its job for a very long time - do you have the latest greatest telephone, tv or computer at your house? I don't, but my 5 year old telephone still does everything I need it to.

As for the bass, that IS a very subjective thing. It really depends on the type of music you're playing, and at what volume. My band, because of the type of music we play, needed more bass than a double bass system could deliver...so we got an external powered sub. It's really pretty easy to adapt this system to your needs. In comparison to the HUGE number of problems that are eliminated by switching to this system from a "conventional" triple system, adding a little more bass is really a pretty minor adjustment. The TONE of the B1's, by the way, is better than you will get out of any other sub - it's really just a volume issue - we needed more wattage.

Okay, so here's the honest truth. I've NEVER been happier with our stage sound. It is by far the best monitor system ever created. Sure, I've heard better sound out front - on a "concert" level with a huge top notch system in the hands of a great engineer. But in a 200 seat club with the band running their sound from the stage, you would be hard pressed to find a better sound, and you sure won't find one that does what this system can do in terms of evenly dispersing your sound throughout the room.

And the frosting on the cake is the team that's behind this product. When Ken and his crew tell you that they will do whatever it takes to make sure it works for you, you can believe it. These are people of the highest caliber, and their level of commitment has redefined the term "customer support". Add it all up, and you really can't go wrong.

Hey you guys I want to take a minute to challange the statment that the" pas is not right for everthing". To get to the point I like the way my voice,guitars,amps,keyboards, and cds sound though the pas better than anything I've ever heard. Not only that, When I play in venues that might need front of house backup for my units I would prefer to only hear my sound and the sound of my band to be only coming out of each band members perspective units. As far as I,m concerned the sound man or woman can take a feed from the units and take it easy! Foh is up to the sound person. However on stage with the pas sound is my business and nobody elses. That's one of the main reasons I bought the bose in the first place. As a matter of fact if I'm comfortable with my sound on stage then the foh person's job should be easier. So, when is the "pas not right for everything" The only awnser I can come up with is when we don't want it to be! George, about the price. If you and your band really want these units you'll find away to get them! Shoot, it might be easier to get them than to talk your guitarist into tring one out and then giving you an honest opinion about how good they really sound. Big AL...

Let's see, "Not right for everything".

I'm sure someone could come up with a situation where it was not "right". It *is* right for everything that I need, but I believe that I am using it pretty much as it was designed to be used. That is ... one system per player (most of the time) in venues of up to 300-500 people.

On the road to this ideal state, I have used a single system in place of a conventional PA
- for a four piece band,
- to run open stage events,
- and in some truly ridiculous settings.

In each case it sounded better than a typical small PA system.
On the other hand, for the uninitiated it was a challenge. To elaborate: running several open microphones through a mixer through a single system is not as simple as through a conventional PA.
- Gain staging is more complex (compared to using a powered mixer).
- Getting gain before feedback can be tricky.
- Getting people to use the proper microphone technique is critical, and for amateur players (think "open stage" situations), it is difficult to enforce.

Let me resort to a metaphor.

A screwdriver is not a hammer. It provides a more sophisticated outcome. Use it as designed and achieve things that are not possible with a hammer.

A screwdriver can be used as a hammer, and up to a point is interchangeable with one. But a screwdriver is not right for every situation.

Though inelegant, I think the parallels fit.

As I see it...
The Bose system is not a replacement for traditional PA solutions. It is another (new) approach to sound delivery, tailored to the needs of live musicians. The results (things get louder) superficially resemble the results of many other things. It performs well in place of many of them, but perhaps not all.

The Bose system may not be right for people who want a different mix of control versus outcomes. I won't debate the merits of being able to tweak the frequency response of the system for example. It does very well for me as it is. In my case, I doubt that having control over the internal workings would yield a better result. For me, I'm sure it wouldn't make the music any better.

I think that this new approach is right when it is used as designed, by the people for whom it was designed, and especially so for those who take a little time to understand it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

Well Al, I've never seen any product that is "right for everything". Most everything in life is a series of trade-offs, and the PAS is no exception. Sometimes I miss the big huge warm sound of the vocals that used to come out of my Klipsch LaScalas and double 18" subs being powered by 3,000 watts. The PAS can't make that same sound...as has been said before - there's no substitute for cubic inches. But I don't miss carrying that van full equipment around, and spending hours setting up and tearing down. And I know that my audience, at least in the smaller rooms that I now play, don't miss being blasted in the front rows by that big system. That's a trade off I'll gladly make - I'll sacrifice a little bit of "oomph" for portability and more pleasant audience volume. And the Klipsch's "bigger" sound was found in only a few select sweet spots, not throughout the room. So once again I'll trade-off a little bigness for even coverage and consistency.

With a loud rock band, playing in a packed room full of rowdy people, the vocals through the PAS can sometimes sound a bit thin and compressed, especially at the back of a crowded room. Sometimes I wish there was a bit more headroom... but then there's always the gain before feedback issue, where more wattage wouldn't make any diference, because you would't be able to turn it up any more without mics squealing anyway. So "as it was designed" to keep your sound in "safe" hearing levels it works fine - but that's not "right" for everyone. I really can't see a young band trying to get their audience to "mosh" using this system.

I think most of the instruments sound very good through the PAS. But that's another trade-of - I LOVE the sound of my Matchless tube amp. I don't necessarily like the sound of my Matchless mic'd through the PAS...haven't quite figured out why, but I just don't. A PodXT Live through the PAS is a reasonable trade-off. It's not quite like sitting right in front of a real tube amp, but through the PAS it sounds very good. I'll trade-off a small percentage of my tone or "feel" for the ease and consistency of the Pod.

So as a "front of house" system it does a decent job - as ST said, better than a "typical small PA system". I don't like most "typical small PA systems" to begin with...never have - I've never used the "little speakers on sticks" approach. That's why I carried around a huge 3 way Klipsch system even to the smaller rooms - for sound quality, not for volume.

As a monitor system - well you've got me there. For the first time in my life, my band's stage sound is finally like I always imagined it could be. We hear each other clearly, and we've settled in at a very reasonable and comfortable volume level.

I don't think you'd find many people who are "perfectly" happy with this, or any other system. Some wish it had more XLR inputs, most wish it had reverb or digital effects, some wish... well, you've read the posts - you get my point.

So for me personally, even though I don't think it's "perfect" I can tell you this - I'll never go back to hauling my old system around again. For the small amunt of tonal "trade-offs" that I've made, I've gained much more.

Well, WOW! Sincere thanks for everyone's insightful comments and positive thoughts!

Ken, I saw the PAS at Long & McQuade in Oshawa,
Ontario, Canada. They are a large music chain.

I have to admit BOSE products have always
surpassed my expectations! The innovations you guys come up with are remarkable.

Again, thanks to all for your replies! You've
convinced me!

I can't wait to see the confused looks from other band members when I carry it into a session!

George

Woo-Hoo,
Boy Did I get you guys going....!
Great!!! St,Gittar you guys rock!
So, George from here you can clearly see that I am right! The Bose Pas is perfect
for "EVERYTHING" including missle defence! LoL!!! Big AL.....

Oh and after all that yammering about screwdrivers and hammers ...

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"

- Sigmund Freud

Right on st! AL...

Holy Cheeses! This thread pretty much put me over the edge, addressing many concerns. I'm gettin' one with two bass units. thanks all!

KC,

Well that's great to hear. Come on back and let us know how the system is working for you will ya?

Steve

ST

I'm gravely disappointed the cigar quote didn't come from Groucho Marx. I think Freud and Groucho would have loved each other, possibly some reincarnation here (who knows?)