quote:

Originally posted by JD1:
somewhere along the line we've become a culture of wannabes.

I think to some extent we are all wannabes. I know I wannabe, a better player, loved, more interesting, exciting, popular, I just won't go as far as some others to get there.

It is getting harder to distinguish between the true talents and the manufactured ones. With modern technology any pretty face can be a star

Many people who love music still can't tell if it's in tune or the vocals are on key. I know many of you have had the experience of performing to an unresponsive crowd and then have a complete non singing audience member get up and torture a song, and the crowd go crazy.

I'm not sure what this says about me, the audience or the non singing talent, but it certainly takes some of the fun out of even trying to be a serious performer.

Sometimes people love to see a train wreck. I don't understand it but I know that the last few live traveling acts I've seen at the college hotspots seem to build chaos and confusion into their sets. To me it's a frustrating experience, takes away from the music, but the youngsters seem to come for their 5 minutes of release when it becomes OK to spill their beer on the people around them.

Kris Kristofferson said, "I was born to be a singer and I'm bound to die the same, I've got to feed this hunger in my soul. If I never have a nickle, I won't ever be ashamed, cause I don't believe that no one wants to know."

O..

Live Music

Hey JD,

quote:

Originally posted by JD1:
Hey ST....when you use the term "live music" are you referring to music by live musicians or are you including deejays as part of it?

Only bringing it up 'cos I think it's a whole new can'o'worms as to why people don't come out to see "live music" and it has nothing to do with volume...

JD

I opened this with this.

quote:

Originally posted by ST
Entertainment in many forms is toxically loud. I think that people have gone into hiding. Although it is difficult to quantify, I am certain that there are those who simply refuse to put themselves in harm's way for the sake of some entertainment.

I believe that there are people here, musicians, entertainers, presenters and more, who have discovered that we do not have to be painfully loud to "sell the show".

If you are using your L1® to deliver the goods (the music, the entertainment, the words) and doing it without inflicting pain and potentially harm ...

What are you doing to tell your audience, "It's safe to come out now"?

I really wanted to explore how we (musicians, entertainers, presenters and more) can re-engage with our audience to tell them the good news. "It's safe...".

So first - I'd like to understand how to reach those folks who (like me) don't get out much. I would really like to know if volume is a significant issue in the decision to go out for entertainment. If there are people out there who are avoiding excessive volume, I want to tell them that I won't hurt them.

Second - Once those folks are out of the house, whether they choose to go see live musicians, "Guitar Hero"es or something else - well at least for now, for me, I'll leave that alone.

The "live music" aspect is incredibly important to me but for this discussion, I prefer not to focus on that if it would prove divisive.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

Guitar Hero - or maybe this is technology in music

Hi Roy,

quote:

Originally posted by Roy:
The economy is hitting hard here in Savannah. The clubs that are doing well are the clubs that have Guitar Hero nights. What does it say when people will go to a club to watch other people who can’t play an instrument pretend to play an instrument? Have the masses become so bored (not sure if this is the right word) that we as musicians don’t fill a need anymore?

In another aspect of my life I ponder a sad and poignant concern: The sense of entitlement held by the younger generations. This is top of mind for me right now because on the way home from the music store there was a radio documentary about this very topic as it relates to students education and the new generation in the labour pool.

There is a real or perceived schism, a split that divides those who "worked hard and held the dream" and those who simply expect to "live the dream".

At first blush, I am just glad the people will get out from behind a glowing box (TV, Computer, iPOD) and choose to go and be in the presence of other people to experience something together.

If people would prefer to watch others play Guitar Hero rather than watch me, I had better learn to be a better performer or accept that I will never capture that particular audience. I think there is something clever going on here. It reminds me of game shows on TV. Apparently the most successful of such shows are those where the audience at home can play along.

Although I am pursuing that audience in other ways, as a performer I don't think of that audience as my audience.

I have noticed the television ads for Wii Music and cringed at the thought that all it takes to create music is the ability to wave one's arms in the air.

"You can play most of the 60-plus instruments in Wii Music using simple motions with the Wii Remote and Nunchuk controllers. Strum to play guitar, banjo and sitar. Drum to play jazz drums, congas and marching drums. Hammer away to play piano, vibraphone and marimba."
— source: Wii Music

Does that diminish me as musician? I don't think so. Will that stop someone from learning a real instrument some day? I hope not. Will it inspire someone to make better virtual instruments? I really hope so.

Back to the sense of entitlement. I think there are a couple of generations of people out there who have been raised to believe that they are valued and cherished for who they are, not what they do. Some of them expect to be rewarded simply for showing up and trying. They expect that because that's what we taught them. I don't hold that against them.

I truly hope that they will aspire to more.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

Guitar Hero - or maybe this is technology in music

Hi Drumr Pete,

These ideas of your really hit me in a bunch of ways.

quote:

Originally posted by Drumr:

quote:

What does it say when people will go to a club to watch other people who can’t play an instrument pretend to play an instrument?

I've been concerned about this too...I sure hope young people haven't gotten too complacent to pick up and really learn an instrument.

I know this should be a new thread...and maybe one we should leave alone in this forum, but it's of major concern to me. My own 22 yr son doesn't get it, when I bashed the new Guitar Hero TV show, for keeping kids from taking up real music. He only said, "Why would I want to watch someone play Guitar Hero on TV, when it would only make me feel bad because he's so much better than me". He didn't get my point, that they are not even musicians.

I can only sigh.

Technology allows us to do so very many things that were difficult or impossible not so very long ago.

I can fill a room with my voice (until you take away my microphone).

I can sing in tune (until you take away my pitch corrector).

I can write and be read by thousands (until you take away my internet connection).

Each advance that allows me to be bigger, better, faster, or mo' better changes the value proposition and puts into question the values that preceded it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

Live Music

Hi Tom,

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Munch:
It's obvious that a lot of people don't value live music,

It's not obvious to me. There are so many possible reasons why people don't come to my shows that I am reluctant to point to "not valuing live music" as a single significant issue.

When I have asked people what might prevent them from choosing a live show as entertainment I have heard all kinds of reasons. Not the least significant were things like

• Finding parking
  
• Finding a baby sitter
  
• Lousy acoustics (why go to a show when the CD sounds so much better)
  
• Too expensive
  
• I don't feel safe walking the streets at night.
  
• It is easier to stay at home and watch tv
  
• When I go out I want to socialize. Try to do that when a band is playing.
  
• I don't want to feel obligated to pay attention to the live performer. (This was with respect to finding incidental live music at a venue as opposed to travelling and choosing a specific show.)
  

I'm not quite ready to believe that live music is not valued.

I am quite convinced that I still don't have my head wrapped around the concept. I don't understand why some people will overcome the obstacles and diversions and will choose to come to a live show.

quote:

so are we crazy for playing it or are we just bad at drawing people to it? Usually in a down economy (I've been told) that people are drawn out of their houses to attend events - whether live music or movies. I think this down economy will tell us a lot.

Maybe there is an opportunity here. I think so. I hope that music and specifically live music can help people transcend their immediate concerns (economy, worries at home, fears about work). Music for me, is completely in the moment. When it's right, there is nothing else. I hope to share that with people and give them some much needed respite from whatever my be troubling them.

quote:

I'm just rambling with a thousand ideas in my head, but there are times when I think that we don't really understand the importance of music in our culture since we're musicians. I still think that music is oxygen, but I wonder if the general public does.

In dozens of conversations I've had about this lately, it is seems entirely possible that being a musician means that I have more than a couple of blind-spots. Here is one: I am certain that I didn't understand a non-musicians experience of hearing live music. Wherever possible I am asking people what they experience at a live show. I am asking them why they overcome whatever they had to overcome, to be there.

I am fascinated but what people will tell you if you just ask them.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

Wannabes

Hi JD

quote:

Originally posted by JD1:
....somewhere along the line we've become a culture of wannabes.

At the risk of sounding like an old fart... it used to be about playing football, guitar and biking after school....now it's about impersonating it on video and TV and yes, in the clubs.

JD

I'm with Oldghm (below) on this one. If it weren't for a bad case of the wannabes I probably wouldn't be very much of anything I turnedouttobe.

ST. You are indeed a tortured soul today! Guess I opened a can of worms here. Comments about entitlement got me thinking again. At movies, theater & concerts people talk loud, use their cellphones, drink too much etc. They paid their money they're ENTITLED. Add that to your list and the reasons not to go anywhere are legion. The only thing I do know is what moves me when I see talented human being(s) putting it all out there. Whitney Houston singing the US anthem on TV a few years back had me crying like a Cdn baby. Tony Bennett singing accapella at Roy Thomson Hall. Oscar Petersen, Diana Krall, Allison Krause, Vince Gill, James Taylor. I could go on and on. Now that I am a musician I can't afford the the big name tickets anymore! Seriously,though there is adrenaline when people get together in the common bond of appreciating music. Appreciating talent requires concentration and the willingness to open your emotions to the artist and each other. In a world where cocooning is common Maybe people just want to do this and not the former. Funny though in down economy all the shows in town like Sound of Music are selling like hot cakes. Apologies to the rockers out there as I am probably dating myself and limiting to my musical genre but I'm living my passion and hopefully its contagious to those I encounter. P.S. Considering all the help you have given BOSE they're gonna have a problem with your cards! They should print some for you!

Wannabes

Hi Oldghm,

Man I miss some of our old conversations.

quote:

Originally posted by Oldghm:

quote:

Originally posted by JD1:
somewhere along the line we've become a culture of wannabes.

I think to some extent we are all wannabes. I know I wannabe, a better player, loved, more interesting, exciting, popular, I just won't go as far as some others to get there.

It is getting harder to distinguish between the true talents and the manufactured ones.

Sad to say, I'm not sure I have ever been able to make the distinction. I know when something has moved me, has touched me in significant way, has taken me out of my misery to better place, has inspired me to something better. At that point I am well and truly beyond knowing or caring what went into making that happen. Whether the instrument of my transcendence is a true talent or a manufactured one probably isn't on my radar at that point.

quote:

With modern technology any pretty face can be a star

What I wouldn't give to have a pretty face.

Okay - just kidding.

quote:

Many people who love music still can't tell if it's in tune or the vocals are on key. I know many of you have had the experience of performing to an unresponsive crowd and then have a complete non singing audience member get up and torture a song, and the crowd go crazy.

This happens to me more that I would care to admit. I don't understand it, but if the motive is genuine, sometimes it seems to be more than enough to move an audience. Not long ago at an (not quite) open stage event, a woman joined us on the stage to sing an Etta James tune. Damn Your Eyes. I love this song so much that I had taught the band to play it so I could sing it. Of course I sing it in a different key than most woman do so the band knew it in my key. When the band fired up, everything went fine until the woman started singing in a completely different key (actually a minor 4th off from what the band was playing). She had a wonderful voice and a commanding stage presence. Her performance (in the wrong key) tore down the house.

quote:

I'm not sure what this says about me, the audience or the non singing talent, but it certainly takes some of the fun out of even trying to be a serious performer.

Sometimes people love to see a train wreck. I don't understand it but I know that the last few live traveling acts I've seen at the college hotspots seem to build chaos and confusion into their sets. To me it's a frustrating experience, takes away from the music, but the youngsters seem to come for their 5 minutes of release when it becomes OK to spill their beer on the people around them.

Kris Kristofferson said, "I was born to be a singer and I'm bound to die the same, I've got to feed this hunger in my soul. If I never have a nickle, I won't ever be ashamed, cause I don't believe that no one wants to know."

O..

Thanks for the reminder.

What I meant by "wannabes" is this....

Why strive towards being a wannabe "guitar hero" when you can strive towards being an "Eric Clapton"?

It's a far greater accomplishment to fail at the latter than to succeed at the former.

JD

Hi Brian,

More later but on this ...

quote:

Originally posted by BrianBeveridge:

P.S. Considering all the help you have given BOSE they're gonna have a problem with your cards! They should print some for you!

Much of this tortured musing is in preparation for something I've got simmering on a burner. I'm still not sure what it will look like when it hits the table. It will undoubtedly include a a single website with a simple address. Something that would be super easy to remember and write on a business card. For all my complaining, I think there is something special about taking a moment to write a little something on a card that you then hand to someone. But if time is short or numbers too big then it will still be something that will be easy to pass along word-of-mouth.

Selling Recorded Music

Hi again Roy,

I don't pretend to know anything much about this, but I think that economies of scale had something to do with the "albums" approach to things. When there were tangible costs to packaging, transportation, shelf space, hot zones in retail stores, cover art, and the effort it took to get mind share and air play on radio, maybe albums (collections of songs on the same media) were a preferable form of packaged product.

quote:

Originally posted by Roy:
Hey Tom - I think you are in the right direction. We live in a download pay for view world. Songs are sold as singles not albums anymore. We still think of making a CD. I had a a late super with a friend who is mixing a CD for an upcoming guitar hero. He said why write an albums worth of music. Write one or two good songs, promote them in the right place and sell them as singles. We have talked in the past about selling our music on line. If you have a good song why wait until you write 11 more. Start selling that one. And now this thread is really going in a new direction. Roy

I don't know what your world is like but in mine I probably cannot find the time to listen to 12 consecutive songs and appreciate the arc of the storyline or the emotional journey that an artist might have intended.

I just found this surveyHow Long Should An Album Be?

I am headed up to Gatlinberg, to spend Thanksgiving with my 2 daughters families, with 3 grand kids (all of which play the piano fairly well)and a total of 5 dogs. Apparently they rented a 4 bedroom pet friendly cabin and I am told we are all going to have a great time.

I am bring a Guitar and some xmas sheet music. They are bringing a "Guitar Hero" (I have not actually seen one yet). I have some fear and intrepidation as to how this will turn out.

Maybe real music can be sung and played. I am hopefull, or Grandpa will be leaving a bit earlier than planned.
It should be interesting, although as some Little Switzerland people noticed, I am not into hikes and that nature stuff. Thank goodness there won't be pollen issues, but I haven't had to enjoy snow for many years now.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.



Back in Florida at the music scene here.
So far The Villages gigs have been good, but most residents are over 55 and like my playlist. The Parrot Heads are pretty good too and Trop-Rock is fun to play and enjoy the crowd.

This is a really neat conversation that goes far and wide. So much so that my lead post is basically, completely off-topic.

So why fight it? I have changed the title of this discussion
from: How do we tell them it's safe to come out now?
to: Thoughts on a rainy afternoon about Bose, Live Music, Guitar Hero, Wannabes and more

I have reposted my original question here: How do we tell them it's safe to come out now?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

I think I’ve told you this story already ST.

Last Christmas was my first introduction to Guitar Hero. My oldest son who is a University grad in music plays drums, guitar, piano and sings brought Guitar Hero for us to play.
We had a great time especially watching my juice harp playing 86 year old father nail "Mississippi Queen". We laughed till we cried. It’s a moment I will never forget.

Guitar Hero is something that brings people together with music, it has progressed to Rock Band were if you are the drummer you have to actually play the patterns and the vocalist has to sing in key. I see it as a tool to bring people back to live music. The Guitar hero fanatic may not know how to play the song but I’ll bet if he is listening to you covering it, he will know if you blow the solo. Something our old audiences wouldn’t ever have known.

If you are coveringcloning someone else’s song you are as much a wannabe as that 86 year old man playing Mississippi Queen and you are probably getting the same rush.
Rick
PS You can't tell me this kid wouldn't know if you missed a verse and this is a Guitar Hero Fav.Juke Box Hero

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Starvin,

Boy, ST, we really got you running in circles trying to keep up with our crazy ideas. It looks like you've digested it a bit now.

I don't think we were too far off your original question. Some of these ideas are good to hash out to understand why people do go out for live music.

That said, let's continue with our discussion.

I'm still confused on what people really think of live music. I thought about it a lot at my gig tonight. When I was really trying the folks were responding, & when I drifted they lost interest & yawned. We have to make it worthwhile if we want people to attend. This is probably a given. But maybe we are deceiving ourselves that music really is of value in our current culture.

I'm struggling with this tonight.

Here's an idea on the wannabe thread.

A good friend & I talked at our weekly lunch about the fact that people seem to be content to not explore things in their life in depth as much as they used to. We figured that this is because there's too many options now & not enough time. I think this may lead to the idea of why people like karaoke, guitar hero, etc. It lets them explore something & get the feeling that they have mastered some small part of an endeavor without having to take the time to get really good at it. It's kinda like the lottery in a way - people want to be rich without working for it.

Make any sense?

Another reflection. I'm glad, ST, that you are spending time asking questions of your audience. This is of great value, & I wish I was doing it (maybe I'll start). I think we (I) make suppositions about the audience's feelings & reasons that may not be true. Then again, sometimes I don't really want to know why the audience comes to hear me, because it might be for reasons I don't care to know.

Hi Brian,

quote:

Originally posted by BrianBeveridge:
ST. You are indeed a tortured soul today!

What an interesting turn of phrase. One that feels so familiar and yet surprisingly, an idiom for which I can find no clear etymology. It conjures up images of Odysseus and Hamlet. Oh dear! And yet yesterday was just another day, and today is day on which people celebrate the feast of Saint Cecilia

quote:

Guess I opened a can of worms here. Comments about entitlement got me thinking again. At movies, theater & concerts people talk loud, use their cellphones, drink too much etc. They paid their money they're ENTITLED. Add that to your list and the reasons not to go anywhere are legion.

And yet, people do. I chat with young folks about their plans for the weekend. Some will spend more than a day or two's pay to go to a concert. Others will simply express that they would if they could afford it.

For some older folks, the effort to get out there is daunting, almost horrifying to contemplate, and yet the desire be with others, to have a shared experience, to tap a foot, clap hands, sing along, or simply nod and smile, whatever they are seeking, the journey seems worth it. I'm not saying that they find what they are seeking, but that the pursuit or the hope that they will find it seems to bring them out.

I love to watch young parents sharing the joy of music with their kids. One place where I play is often blessed with toddlers and pre-toddlers often held by swaying, smiling parents. The ambulatory little ones will often dance. Some of smallest ones will simply demand "more" when there is a lull in the music.

quote:

The only thing I do know is what moves me when I see talented human being(s) putting it all out there. Whitney Houston singing the US anthem on TV a few years back had me crying like a Cdn baby. Tony Bennett singing accapella at Roy Thomson Hall. Oscar Petersen, Diana Krall, Allison Krause, Vince Gill, James Taylor. I could go on and on. Now that I am a musician I can't afford the the big name tickets anymore! Seriously,though there is adrenaline when people get together in the common bond of appreciating music.

Hmmm, perhaps I have misunderstood the impact of sensory assaults in this process. Maybe the volume, the crush of humanity, the sensory overload... maybe these enhance the experience by heightening the rush.

quote:

Appreciating talent requires concentration and the willingness to open your emotions to the artist and each other.

This is really interesting. I have had people tell me that they will avoid a place with live musicians playing if they are not in the mood to participate at that level.

quote:

In a world where cocooning is common Maybe people just want to do this and not the former. Funny though in down economy all the shows in town like Sound of Music are selling like hot cakes.

Perhaps people need to actively engage in the willing suspension of disbelief to find solace in troubled times.

quote:

We figured that this is because there's too many options now & not enough time. I think this may lead to the idea of why people like karaoke, guitar hero, etc. It lets them explore something & get the feeling that they have mastered some small part of an endeavor without having to take the time to get really good at it. It's kinda like the lottery in a way - people want to be rich without working for it.

I think you hit the nail on the head here Tom. When my kids were growing up they had Air band competitions. Now its Rock Band and Karaoke. This didn't stop my kids from playing real instruments I think it may have encouraged them. If it gets people out of the house it’s a good thing in my book.

I work with different bands all the time some are booked steady and some aren’t. I guess what I’m getting at is the people are out there and if you want them to come to were you are playing you have to offer them something they are interested in. Whether it’s DJ’s, Karaoke, Guitar Hero or live bands what they are after is a good time and its up to us to give it to them.
Rick

ST. Hope I didn't offend u with the tortured soul comment! LOL. Thanks for the link to St Cecelia. I had no idea and we can all use a patron saint. Reading this and other posts has inspired me to look at my motivations as a performer. My friend asked me to play a "freebee" for underprivileged kids tomorrow a dinner time. My initial reaction was:
gas is expensive
it's going to snow
it's in a rough area
screws up the whole afternoon early evening
the Grey Cup's on.

Of course you know after I read about St Cecelia.....

Cheers! Brian