Hey Brian,

quote:

Originally posted by BrianBeveridge:
ST. Hope I didn't offend u with the tortured soul comment! LOL.

No problem.

quote:

Thanks for the link to St Cecelia. I had no idea and we can all use a patron saint. Reading this and other posts has inspired me to look at my motivations as a performer. My friend asked me to play a "freebee" for underprivileged kids tomorrow a dinner time. My initial reaction was:
gas is expensive
it's going to snow
it's in a rough area
screws up the whole afternoon early evening
the Grey Cup's on.

Of course you know after I read about St Cecelia.....

Cheers! Brian

Enjoy the show Brian, and savour the time to ponder as you brave the elements.

quote:

it's in a rough area

What part of town?

Thanks ST.
West end of Toronto. I won't get too specific as not to offend others from the "Big Smoke". By the way I just thought up another reason why I wasn't going to do it. It's a Christmas party!(Always hated playing Christmas stuff before December even hits!). Oh well....the kids will fun and so will we.

Cheers!

I'm going to look for one of those bars having a Guitar Hero Night and see if I can't provide the sound.

Here is the interesting twist about Guitar Hero. My friends who teach guitar are saying that they are seeing an increase in students due to the game. Parents are saying that if they are good at the game maybe they will be good playing a guitar. The teachers are also saying that these kids are more tuned into the classic rock because of the game. The down side is that these kids think playing guitar is like a game, or they struggle with the concept of a real guitar. If it promotes people to learn a real instrument that is a good thing.

Pete
Maybe you have stumbled on to something of an idea. Instead of a karaoke party why not a Guitar Hero party. You’ve got DJ’s & KJ’s why not GHJ’s.

quote:

Maybe you have stumbled on to something of an idea.

Why fight it? Right or wrong, it's an opportunity.

Hi Tom,

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Munch:
Boy, ST, we really got you running in circles trying to keep up with our crazy ideas. It looks like you've digested it a bit now.

It has been a great deal of fun, and no fear, I was keeping up just fine. It took me awhile to get back here though. It was a super busy weekend.

quote:

I don't think we were too far off your original question. Some of these ideas are good to hash out to understand why people do go out for live music.

That said, let's continue with our discussion.

What do people think about live music?

quote:

I'm still confused on what people really think of live music.

People have been happy to talk to me about this. All I had to do was ask. Maybe that would work for you too.

quote:

I thought about it a lot at my gig tonight. When I was really trying the folks were responding, & when I drifted they lost interest & yawned. We have to make it worthwhile if we want people to attend. This is probably a given.

The value of music in our current culture

quote:

But maybe we are deceiving ourselves that music really is of value in our current culture.

I did some checking on Gross Domestic Product in Canada and the US. From what I can tell from Bureau of the Economic Analysis reports, entertainment in various forms including recorded and live music, has grown steadily at a rate just slightly higher than the overall economy. The figures were taken over the period 2004-2007. More BEA reports.

quote:

I'm struggling with this tonight.

Now these are unusual times and there may be a change in priorities. But despite what we may be seeing as individuals in the live music side of the entertainment business, it looks to me as though as late as last year, there was reason for a moderate view that entertainment (and perhaps music as a part of that) was as popular as ever.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

Guitar Hero and Wannabes

Hi Rick,

Thanks for reminding me about this.

quote:

Originally posted by starvin007:
I think I’ve told you this story already ST.

It was then and remains now, a great story.

quote:

Last Christmas was my first introduction to Guitar Hero. My oldest son who is a University grad in music plays drums, guitar, piano and sings brought Guitar Hero for us to play.

Interesting. Here is a working musician introducing Guitar Hero to his loved ones at a family gathering.

quote:

We had a great time especially watching my juice harp playing 86 year old father nail "Mississippi Queen". We laughed till we cried. It’s a moment I will never forget.

Guitar Hero is something that brings people together with music, it has progressed to Rock Band were if you are the drummer you have to actually play the patterns and the vocalist has to sing in key.

I didn't understand that it took increasing levels of proficiency at music related skills to progress. Perhaps this is a gateway to other devices, perhaps even musical instruments.

quote:

I see it as a tool to bring people back to live music. The Guitar hero fanatic may not know how to play the song but I’ll bet if he is listening to you covering it, he will know if you blow the solo. Something our old audiences wouldn’t ever have known.

I don't want to discount or write-off people in the audience who may be listening and lying in wait for me to fail. But I don't think I will devote a lot of time living in fear of them.

But maybe someone who is listening that attentively will also hear and appreciate my interpretation of a song. That might be borne out of my inability to do it like the original, or it may be because I can't do it without revealing a little of myself in the process.

Perhaps that Guitar Hero player will be inspired to try an instrument or an environment that rewards that kind of imperfection.

quote:

If you are coveringcloning someone else’s song you are as much a wannabe as that 86 year old man playing Mississippi Queen and you are probably getting the same rush.

You know Rick, I was taken aback by this. As I read covering (or cloning) and wannabe my first reaction was a little defensive. Having had a little more time to ponder an 86 year old sharing some fun with his family, I can't help but think that this is a good thing. How different is that from grandpa playing catch with his grandson as one or both of them imagine that they are are in Fenway Park or Yankee Stadium.

quote:

Rick
PS You can't tell me this kid wouldn't know if you missed a verse and this is a Guitar Hero Fav.Juke Box Hero

And perhaps that same kid would freak if someone edited his favourite "naratim verbatim" movie on dvd.

He might be in training to sing his own lyrics, or he may just be at that time in life where being able to do that is a stepping stone on the path to the next step in cognition.

It was fun to watch. Was that entertainment?

Thanks Rick.

Wannabes

Hi Tom,

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Munch:
Here's an idea on the wannabe thread.

A good friend & I talked at our weekly lunch about the fact that people seem to be content to not explore things in their life in depth as much as they used to.

I can't accept this as a "fact". At least in my travels, I have not gathered sufficient evidence to support the premise.

quote:

We figured that this is because there's too many options now & not enough time. I think this may lead to the idea of why people like karaoke, guitar hero, etc. It lets them explore something & get the feeling that they have mastered some small part of an endeavor without having to take the time to get really good at it. It's kinda like the lottery in a way - people want to be rich without working for it.

Make any sense?

Sorry Tom, I'm not seeing enough of this to agree with the generalization. As the world has gotten smaller, my perception of it is both larger and even smaller. Sometimes it is only a few square inches of ghastly unnatural white in a sea of darkness. But even just peering into those few inches it is easier than ever to find people who really care about what they are doing. Mastery is a difficult concept to apply in a world where skills and values are being created, recreated, defined, relevant and irrelevant in years, weeks, and days instead of decades, centuries and millennia.

Asking Questions

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Munch:
Another reflection. I'm glad, ST, that you are spending time asking questions of your audience. This is of great value, & I wish I was doing it (maybe I'll start). I think we (I) make suppositions about the audience's feelings & reasons that may not be true. Then again, sometimes I don't really want to know why the audience comes to hear me, because it might be for reasons I don't care to know.

"An unexamined life is not worth living." - -- Socrates

or

If you don't like the answers, perhaps you need a better question.

quote:

It lets them explore something & get the feeling that they have mastered some small part of an endeavor without having to take the time to get really good at it. It's kinda like the lottery in a way - people want to be rich without working for it.

Right on the money, Tom

JD

quote:

Originally posted by ST:
Asking Questions

quote:

Originally posted by Tom Munch:
Another reflection. I'm glad, ST, that you are spending time asking questions of your audience. This is of great value, & I wish I was doing it (maybe I'll start). I think we (I) make suppositions about the audience's feelings & reasons that may not be true. Then again, sometimes I don't really want to know why the audience comes to hear me, because it might be for reasons I don't care to know.

"An unexamined life is not worth living." - -- Socrates

or

If you don't like the answers, perhaps you need a better question.

I should explain myself better. I come from a pretty peaceful place inside myself when I make my music. I try to be as honest as I can with the song, & I try to connect with the content of the song & sing it completely in the moment. My audience is there for other reasons - watching my fingers intently, trying to charm a date, wanting to flirt with me, enjoying the ambiance. I'm not interested in those things while I'm trying to connect with the song. I want to suppose that the audience has the same motives as I do so that I can free myself to play.

As far as the wannabe comments, I know it seems cynical, but my experience has been that folks are not doing things in depth to the same level as I perceive they used to - even in their regular jobs. I know there are exceptions out there, & I'm glad, ST, that you see these kind of folks. In my area they are fewer & farther in between.

True excellence is worth pursuing, & I wish our culture cherished that & celebrated it. It is very valuable.

Hi ST

quote:

I don't want to discount or write-off people in the audience who may be listening and lying in wait for me to fail. But I don't think I will devote a lot of time living in fear of them

When I wrote

quote:

The Guitar hero fanatic may not know how to play the song but I’ll bet if he is listening to you covering it, he will know if you blow the solo. Something our old audiences wouldn’t ever have known

I wasn’t thinking of them lying and waiting for someone to fail but now that you mention it does sound like that's what I meant.
What I was getting at was that the GH fanatic is much more in tune to a song he knows than the audiences’ pre GH and that is because the GH player knows every lick inside out.

quote:

But maybe someone who is listening that attentively will also hear and appreciate my interpretation of a song. That might be borne out of my inability to do it like the original, or it may be because I can't do it without revealing a little of myself in the process.

All I’m saying is if you change the solo for whatever reason he will know.
Some might find that intimidating, some might find it invigorating but like it or not that could very well be your new audience.

quote:

All I’m saying is if you change the solo for whatever reason he will know

That's actually a pretty comical vision!

As anyone who's seen Clapton knows, he never plays the same solo twice. Just picturing some "guitar hero" sitting in judgement of him has me rolling on the floor!

JD

I'm enjoying this thread ... and there is a tie-in to Nathan's thread about a Brian Eno essay on singing ... and a thought:

I'm all for anything that might encourage people -- of any and all ages -- to discover the magic of music.

Maybe for most people Guitar Hero may be just a mildly interesting diversion for a while ... but if 50 million kids are flailing at it, I have to wonder that a few may be enticed into trying to create some similar sounds "for real" -- and some of those might not have 'discovered' music without Guitar Hero. Who knows what stories may come from acknowledged performers 10-20 years from now about what got them started?

The Brian Eno link got me started looking at a few more such essays; here are a few which seem to relate to this rambling thread about music and its magic and importance in humans (in no particular order):

* Music Makes Me Come Alive by Joan Tower

* Jazz Is the Sound of God Laughing by Colleen Shaddox

* Doing Things My Own Way by Bela Fleck

* The Artistry in Hidden Talents by Mel Rusnov

quote:

Just picturing some "guitar hero" sitting in judgement of him has me rolling on the floor!

That’s what I’m talking about JD. The guitar hero kid and the guitar player would both know that the solo isn't the same. Everyone else would be oblivious to the fact. The new audience is more in tune to what is happening on stage and hopefully more appreciative because they understand to an extent how much work is involved in perfecting that solo. I’m also hoping that he would appreciate the fact Clapton was creating a new one on the fly. I’m thinking this is a good thing.

Dan
Thanks for these links. I’m a big fan of Bella Fleck and this is great reading.
Rick

Originally posted by ST:

quote:

"...I'm trying to figure out how to reach people who are NOT coming out to hear live music..."

quote:

...when they have so many other alternatives."

I think you answered your own question, ST. There are so many other ways to spend one's time these days - especially with respect to being entertained - and there simply aren't enough hours in the day to do everything (in my case anyway).

I have spoken with several people who have told me that they would rather stay home and listen to a favorite concert using their superior-sounding home theater system. I can partially agree with their reasoning. I do enjoy listening to live music...but only when it's presented to me at a reasonable (to my ears) volume level. Some of us on this forum have already expressed a dislike with respect to excessive volume levels at concerts. That is but one reason to stay home.

There are a myriad of reasons why live music isn't supported as much as we'd all probably like it to be; most, I believe, connected in some way with our easy and leisurely lifestyle. And by that I mean that it's so easy to watch a favorite music concert in the comfort of one's living room rather than attempt to go through the motions required to experience an evening of live music. Even better if you happen to have one of those home entertainment systems with the superior sound quality. At least you, and not the concert's sound engineer, will be in charge of the volume levels!

I also attribute cable TV, the Internet, and all the concert DVDs that are avaiable, as reasons why folks stay home. This is the technology that is keeping folks indoors.

quote:

:Tom wrote:
"A good friend & I talked at our weekly lunch about the fact that people seem to be content to not explore things in their life in depth as much as they used to. We figured that this is because there's too many options now & not enough time. I think this may lead to the idea of why people like karaoke, guitar hero, etc. It lets them explore something & get the feeling that they have mastered some small part of an endeavor without having to take the time to get really good at it. It's kinda like the lottery in a way - people want to be rich without working for it."

I agree to some extent, Tom. I do believe that some of those people opt for Karaoke and Guitar Hero (for example) because they perceive it as a way for them to do something (sing, or feel like they are playing guitar in a rock band, for example) without investing the time to do what it would otherwise take to do it for real.

I used to wonder, when I first heard about Karaoke, why anyone would want to listen to someone singing grossly out of tune! After I saw a couple of Karaoke acts - where there were several people singing grossly out of tune - I observed that the audience was getting the same amount of enjoyment - in the form of laughter - that they might get at a good comedy show! As long as the people doing the singing(?) weren't offended by all the folks laughing at them then I suppose it's good entertainment; and the audience's desires for good entertainment has been met. So Karaoke's popularity, I can understand to some extent.

I can also understand why some folks hire DJs instead of a band. At a function that consists of people with all sorts of musical tastes (wedding, for example) you will almost never meet everyone's musical tastes with a single band - unless they are extremely versatile, and can play in a variety of musical styles (not just play a bunch of songs). A good DJ can please almost everyone - musically - so I see why good DJs are popular.

And now that many of them are converting over to L1s...they can only become more popular .

But Guitar Hero? This is something I simply do not get. Like many other people I've been hearing about it for quite some time now. Well last week I got the opportunity to see one for real. I watched my friend's teenage daughter play the game and I can honestly say that I simply don't get it! I cannot figure out why the game is as popular as it is. To me, anyway, it looked like someone playing an X-Box (for example) in the shape of a guitar. Other than that I simply didn't see the guitar connection! I must be getting too old! I would much rather go listen to live music and appreciate what the musicians have to offer. I seem to be in the minority on this one.

Stu

edit: spelling and clarification.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: StuartD,

Guitar hero...now we all can have fun..it was just a matter of time..and for only 200 dollars...a real playing guitar..
Disney Star Guitarist
(Button-pushing rock star wannabes now have a tiny glimmer of hope thanks to Disney Star Guitarist. The game uses an actual guitar with color-coded strings to teach aspiring guitarists to learn new songs, while still featuring competitive game modes)