Not using the L1® Approach (L1® behind you with one L1® per performer)?

I am really interested in how you are using your L1®. If you are NOT using the L1® approach¹ please post here and tell me about it. I'd really like to learn about what is working for you. The original vision of the L1® Approach is well documented.¹ so we don't need to talk about that here.

If you have an L1® and found another way to use it I want to hear from you. Please.

Please use The Sketcher to show us your stage layout. I will put the live version of the Sketch here for you.

If you have photos that would be great too.

Freedom from Reproach or Criticism
Defenders of the L1® Approach - please let folks tell us what they are doing and how the L1® is working for them. I have invited people to talk about their direct personal experiences. Please let's let them have their say without criticism.

If anyone wants to make suggestions about what someone else is doing, please quote that original poster's message into a new discussion and take it from there.

Thanks everyone!


¹
The original vision of the L1® Approach is well documented.
You can find that here: The L1® Approach Revisited and The Earliest Sketch of the New Approach. I have probably written as much about that as anyone in Illustrations of Band Setups, Sketching the Principles and Stage Layouts. Now it is time to find out how others are succeeding with the L1®.

Hi ST

I use the original vision of the L1® Approach when I can but quite often I don't have the room or I'm playing with people who don't own L1s.

This is one example.

There is a traditional country band that I play with where my L1 classic /2 B1 /1 T1 is the PA.
I put a piano, two vocal mics and a violin into my L1. The drums and bass guitar are unmiked. I position the L1 behind the drums center stage. We have played for up to 150 people with this set up and have received nothing but good comments.

I have been using L1 systems for quite a few years now, traditional approach for a 4 or 5 piece rock cover band.

From January 13th through the 15th, I will be using my L1 Model II with a single B1 at the
ATA Trade Show in Columbus, Ohio.

We will be using the system to play smooth jazz, while we demonstrate an innovative product we designed for the outdoor industry

The regulations for the show state that the sound is not to exceed 85 db.....If I run at 85 db, I would imagine I would be heard almost everywhere!

So, If you are a bowhunter and a musician (Ted Nugent probably doesn't use the L1 approach), come and see us in booth #2450 (you should hear us before you see us)!

Best Wishes,
Jeff

This message has been edited. Last edited by: holliwil,

This is how I justify my need for two L1s.

The three of us had been using typical FOH/monitor/backline/lighting systems for 30 years and for the last 10 years had been using guitar modelers and independant inear mixes. Prewired FOH/inear systems made for quick setup/teardowns. Lights are always a pain Using the inears we had become quite used to having exactly what we needed at every show. We play to noisy party crowds in bars, beer gardens, small gyms, dance halls and street dances. From 100 to 1000 people. No problems, just a small trailer of gear and an hour and half setup time. No room mics were added to the inears.

When I moved to the Bose system I started with 2 minivans, lights and 2L1Clasicx4B1 using all 8 inputs of the PS1 in the traditional Bose approach. From the start we just didn't have the headroom for anywhere but the smallest rooms we do, nor were each of us comfortable with the L1 mixes. Small stages presented the worst problems. Larger stages were better. Problems with masking, crowd noise and physical seperation from the L1's led to different perceptions of what our vocal and music mixes were. Small stages with large rooms were the worst. We had regular complaints from the public of uneven vocals and overall low volumes. We struggled with forum suggested variations on stage setups for about six months.

Then I moved to the 3xL1Classic with 4 single 18" cabinets and back to using a small trailer. This gave us just about enough headroom for our biggest rooms/beer gardens and helped with the masking issues we were having. We moved all the L1's together to upstage center and this helped some with our vocal mix issues. Some of the complaints stopped from the public and some of the crowd participation/party atmosphere started to return. We still struggled with musician comfort on stage. Seperate cabling for each L1 system has made setup time longer again. When possible we tried variations of raising and tilting the L1's for another six months.

Now we have pulled out our old 16x4x2 mixer. We run vocals and guitars to upstage left and upstage right. Drums to upstage center only. Still raise and tilt the L1's when possible. The drummer has gone back to an inear mix from the mixer. We are all back to hearing a vocal mix and music mix that is comfortable for all. We have decent impact from the drums without other masking issues. We're comfortable hearing a "CD" type vocal/music mix that is consistant on small stages as well as large, and the crowd is consistantly happy to party with us.

I still can barely cover about 300 noisy people in 2500 sq ft or a small beer garden. We have one gig where the stage area is a small box shape built into the wall. This is still our worst gig with the Bose behind us, stuffed in the back of this stage area. We can no longer cover street dances. With seperate L1 cabling, our overall setup time is back to an hour an a half.
The L1's are the best sounding monitors we have used and do have a smoother dispersion than our old FOH. The front tables don't get blasted in small places but its still hard to cover larger rooms. Some of our crowds miss the "dynamic impact" of a typical FOH and our prewired FOH was a faster setup. The work goes on to find a suitable compromise for all...........

Hi grecon144,

Thanks for using The Sketcher! Here is your Sketch (revised with microphone for Drummer).



-- click image to make changes to the live version --

Legend:
L1® Model I/Classic

Quoting grecon144 from The Sketcher

quote:

ALTERNATE APPROACH
2 VOCAL -EV ND967
1 VOCAL-AKG C410 HEADSET
1-BEHRINGER 16X4X2 MIXER
3-CLASSIC PS1/L1
4-EV FORCE SUB I, (1 ON STAGE LEFT L1, 1 ON STAGE RIGHT L1, 2 ON CENTER L1)
1-MODIFIED FERNANDEZ RETROROCKET
1-GUITAR RACK W/ELECTRIC, ACOUSTIC AND SYNTH MODELERS
1-MODIFIED IBANEZ 5STRING, DOD BASS PEDAL/TUNER
1-ROLAND TD-3 WITH PINTECH MESH DRUMSET
ALL MICS AND INTRUMENTS GO THROUGH MIXER, ALL VOCALS AND GUITARS GO TO STAGE LEFT AND RIGHT L1'S. DRUMS GO TO CENTERSTAGE L1
DRUMMER USES HEADPHONE MIX OFF THE MIXER FOR INEARS.

Hi there!

I have a 9 piece Cuban Orquesta Charanga (Salsa). I own 5 Bose systems and I have never used the L1® approach¹.
Actually I have never used the five at the same time.
Honestly it seem to me highly unnecessary.
In Fact we usually play (weekly) the 9 piece Orquesta ( Two Violins, Mandolin,accordion, flute,sax,keyboards, acoustic Bass,"4" vocals, timbales, and congas) using only one L1 Model II with a single B1.
It is large restaurant fore more than 300 people, and we use it in the front of the band pointing towards the musicians (away from the public) less than half the volume and still we get complaints for being too loud.
I was reading some people mentioning that it is too clear. Well yes!!! at the end of the restaurant you can understand clearly what is being said on the mic, and that is misunderstood by the managers, and the patrons as being too loud.
Also get ready to rehearse if you are planning to buy a L1 because you will hear all the mistakes that were always hidden behind the traditional speakers moodiness( it will make you a better musician)
I have gone to the same place other days with bands playing with a conventional system and they are several decibels louder and because it sounds like background noise - no complaints.
I always get the compliments for having the best sound by people who know about music.
I will only play or listen to Bose equipment but will not recommend it.
I'm the only one using it at the places I play, and I like it that way.
In bigger venues, I use one in the back-center of the band, and two in front (also a bigger band with trumpets and trombone). That always seems to be more than enough.
I'm sorry, but using the L1® approach seems to me that I will lose the control of the mix.
Will love to try it- but not in a real concert first.

Hey YeraSon - I am a little lost here. Are you saying you like the L1 but don't want to use it in public?

quote:

It is large restaurant fore more than 300 people, and we use it in the front of the band pointing towards the musicians (away from the public) less than half the volume and still we get complaints for being too loud.

Are you saying this because you think it is to loud? Depending on what you mean by half way that can be pretty loud on a L1 depending on all the gain staging.

Just curious here. Roy

Hi Roy

I love the L1 and will use it regardless what people think.
What i meant when I said (Will love to try it- but not in a real concert first.)
Is the L1® Approach
L1® Approach.


This way

# Every performer has his/her own L1®. # The audience can hear the individual performers. # The volume and the mix are in the control of the performers.

I mentioned that using that approach "seems to me that I will lose the control of the mix."


The other comment is that it gives the sensation of being too Loud because it is so clear that it is mistaken four loud when actually is not.
Anybody that does not understand about Bose sound, and can hear you clearly at the back of the room assumes that you are way too loud in front.
I have explained it many many times to managers,and customers, and proved it with a decibel reader. It is not loud, it just seem so.

Another problem is in venues that have their own sound and how some sound guys feel offended when you don't want to use their gear (Some are really happy) but an unhappy sound guy can make your gig miserable.

My point. It's the best sound, but you might get complaints!

Thanks
Yrving

Hey - I get it. Thanks. We have all had this issue come up. There is no easy answer. Good Luck - Roy

quote:

"I am really interested in how you are using your L1®. If you are NOT using the L1® approach¹ please post here and tell me about it. I'd really like to learn about what is working for you. The original vision of the L1® Approach is well documented.¹ so we don't need to talk about that here."

ST, not sure if, by "...not using the traditional approach", you're referring to using it for something other than live sound, or if you are referring to having it placed somewhere other than behind you on stage during live performance use, but I currently use my L1 as a mono monitoring source in my home project recording studio. I always kept my L1 set up at home (for rehearsal) so often used it to play my music. When not used for live performance it's now used as the mono monitoring source in my studio.

I'm told that it's a good idea to play recorded mixes through a mono speaker to make sure nothing is lost in the mix when converting to mono. The thought of buying a third monitor speaker made me consider using the L1. Glad I did. It sounds fantastic!

Stu
Edit: clarification

We've started out using the Non-L1 approach. We use a pan biasing technique to approximate the Bose L1 performance model, but also to exploit stereo effects, which we use in live in, ummmm, unexpected ways.

We use 2 L1 M2 double bass units with T1's. This is a Jazz trio, but more of a loop based modern acid-jazz. Drums are pre-recorded tracks (2 of us are drummers) or programmed drums or other backing tracks. They are combined from a small mixer and sent to the 4/5 inputs of each T1 to generate Stereo. The bass is run through a Roland VB-99, and sent to each T1 on channel 3. Guitar is similar, sent to both T1's channel 2 in stereo, but we balance more to the guitar players side of the stage. Same with keys, sent to channel 1 on both T1's in stereo, biased to the key side. We set up the same way in rehearsal. It lends a locational feel to the Keys and the guitars, and the effect is that the bass and kick are smack down the middle, while the cymbals and higher range parts seem to come from everywhere. Very effective.

We liked it so much, last night we used it in the recording studio. Same set-up, but panned central (we can change that in the mix), and the Bass and drums were flipped (I needed a direct out for the drums, was able to run into 4/5 with 1/4" balanced and out xlr to the console on the VB-99). Additionally, I set up a stereo-matched pair of ribbon mics in the room, to pick up ambient sound.

What this did was amazing. It's very hard to play with nuance in a sometimes noisy, effected format like ours, especially when monitoring with headphones. What this did was allow us to use the Bose Systems inherent dynamic range to perform with while recording. Headphones tend to squash mixes, and nobody is ever happy with a mix.

In this set-up, we set gain at the console, and then set our playing volume to where we were all comfortable and had a very nice mix. Then we hit the big red button and jammed. We really were able to play off each other because of the clarity of what we heard in the room.

What we got on disc was shockingly like what we heard in the room. The room mics add some low end punch and high end sizzle, and kind of glue the whole thing together. We feel this will change our recording approach completely. We'll be doing base tracks this way as we move through the album we are currently working on.

Now, some people will still argue that they need open mics on everything when they record. OK, that's one approach. But it's a brave new world where Gigantic PA systems have been replaced by Hi-Fi PA's that fit in your trunk and sound incredible, and where direct signals are refined enough to fool all but the most golden of golden ears.

How's that for a unique use of the L1? I'll post some songs next week after we finish a couple up....

Wow Erik - I just LOVE what you're doing - sounds amazing! And I'm just a lowly classic rock guitar strummer! :-)

Also... your name reminds me of an old album I've meant to copy to MP3 for a long time - an old folkie named EriC AndersEn - he had a great ballad called Blue River...

Anyway, please keep telling us what you're doing - this is very interesting...

Best, Mike

Yeah, Erik Anderson's are like Joe Smith's here in the midwest I know 4 of them, a couple who are also musicians!

We tried this last night again, and it sounds incredible. Unfortunately, we didn't like anything we tracked. Everyone had an issue or two. But we really like the sound. Hopefully be able post something in the next week or two.

What a great, flexible system....

Sometimes I use the tower pieces from my Compact to stir up concrete in a wheelbarrow when I do construction. Is that considered a non traditional approach? Hahaha... =)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Kova,