In all of your environmental spaces talked about there seem to be walls involved. I understand that the waves work best when reflection is available, but how well does it work when the sound waves go on forever? The 180 degree sound field covers a good area since a performer tends to face their audience, but with no reflective surfaces, the volume would fall off considerably with distance. What would the distance limit be in an open air situation?

You are right that outdoors the sound, in general, just keeps going. We've tested the approach outdoors and it reaches an audience of 300 with complete satisfaction.

It will do MUCH better than a conventional system outdoors because the falloff of sound is so much more gradual. If you make a conventional source and a Cylindrical Radiator(tm) speaker the same at 3' (one meter) then by 30' (ten meters) the conventional source will be less than one-tenth the intensity, or more than 10 dB. That's about double the loudness. In other words, A LOT.

Indoors, you sometimes get help from the room and many times you do not. There's much less harmful reverberation with the new approach because it does not radiate sound to the upper walls and ceiling, where reflections cause reverberation.

In a big outdoor situation (500 or more people) you would need to add a delay ring. But keep in mind that you'd have to add a delay ring at a much closer radius, and therefore a much smaller audience with a conventional system.

I'm confused on 2 points:

1. How exactly is the sound falloff "so much more gradual"? I understand how it radiates out rather than being directional, but the sound will dissipate nevertheless. The sound wave is formed from air molecules bouncing each other and forming a wave that continually expands, and as it grows larger and more distributed there is less force (less volume) the farther you go. This is true with amplification or just every natural sound that occurs. I don't see where you get double the loudness at 30 feet unless it's out of the conventional systems focus range.

2. Due to the nature of sound expanding, I don't understand how the sound could not hit the upper walls and ceiling. Do you mean if a group played a gig in an auditorium with a balcony, the people in the upper tier wouldn't have just as good an experience? Where I live we have a theatre which has 3 balconies. Would this be a problem?

I don't mean to sound too critical, but I like the ideas that your web page portrays and would really like to believe it's as wonderful as you say. These explanations just don't make sense to me. Please clarify if you can...

First off, you're not being critical, you're asking a REALLY good question. This speaker does not behave like a conventional speaker. Read the forum called "What do you think of this new approach?" and start at the comment by "JazzMan" (or the Star Trek enactment that "tymish" and I got into) and it should make things clearer. Ken said he's going to start a Cylindrical Radiator(tm) loudspeaker thread but I don't think he has started it yet. That will be a GREAT place to understand why our new approach is so different.

Ok, I reread the sections with JazzMan and tymish. I understand the cylindrical wave form and how it seems to hold it's intensity together better. If this is so, then to get the great sound, the audience's ears will have to be within that 7 foot "sweet spot" that the Cylindrical Radiator(tm) is on plane with. You didn't answer the question of varying heights of an audience. This suggests that the listening experience is similar to the viewing limitations of a rear projection television. As you look at it and stand and sit, the picture's sweet spot is a visible bar that moves up and down on the screen. In your lab testing, did anyone try a height experiment in a high ceiling room to see if they could rise above the sound field? If this is in fact the case, would an additional setup be required and tilted back to provide sound to the upper tiers? How about playing on top of a hill; will the sound follow the contours down?

I also wondered if there is a way to use half of the cylinder in situations where there may be a height restriction? If the circuit is completed by the top cylinder, is there a cap you've developed to complete the circuit by using only the bottom cylinder (this would also be beneficial in practice sessions (less to carry/ low basement ceilings etc...))or is there a power problem since the amp is set for the full load?

I'm glad you guys are enjoying these questions. Thank you for giving my brain something new and refreshing to hammer out!! I'm looking forward to experiencing this system myself, but I don't know when that will be. Will any of your retail stores have demo units any time soon?

Ooops, you're right, we didn't answer one of the questions, sorry.

Yes, your understanding of the wave front is correct in regards to being above or below the cylindrical wave front. It's actually a neat demonstration to grab a ladder and get above the wave. There is a good drop-off in sound level. If the system is used in a situation where there the ground is tilted up, in order to get good coverage you’ll want to tilt the system up (or down). You may even need to use the lineouts on the PS1 to send a signal to fill speakers (like you do now) for odd shaped rooms.

As far as using half the unit, you will be disappointed with the sound I think (if it even works, Hilmar?). There is no “cap” and I’m not sure how the wiring goes. I believe it is two separate connections, so the half height may make a signal, but the EQ probably won’t be right. Good question.

[This message was edited by Steve-at-Bose on Thu October 23 2003 at 02:56 PM.]

So, as I understand it, if a band played at my daughter's school where the stage is 5 feet high, the first six rows of sitting people would have a difficult time hearing the show because they are below the sound field. Also, if the band is in the orchestra pit, this would also create a problem...

As for the half unit acting like a point source, wouldn't it just lower the cylindrical effect to 3.5 feet(except for the bass module which is omnidirectional)? After all, it's still a cylindrical shape that's producing the sound... I can see where the EQ settings may be affected since only half of the mids and highs are present...

I'd like to repeat Modman's question - Are any of the Bose stores, or Bose music dealers going to demoing this system anywhere soon?

To ModmanQ6:
Using only one half of the cylindrical radiator will significantly impact the performance for a variety of reasons: your ears still need to be at the same height as some part of the cylinder, which is difficult at 3.5 feet. Also the EQ would be actually wrong.
I don't think there'll be much problems in fitting 7 feet. Certainly in my town, you can't get a residential building permit for a ceiling that low and it's hard for me to imagine a fire marshall that would allow a public performance in such a space

You are right about your daughters school. With a 5 feet stage and a sitting audience (or a bunch of Kindergarten kids ), this will not work well. In many cases a bit of tilting can certainly help (provided it can be done safely).

JimA4Media, Guitar Center will start having product on November first and fill thier stores from 11.1~11.15. Bose stores will not have product before January for certain. Having units in stores after January is still an open issue for our team to sort out. We're not sure if folks at a Bose store that are there to learn about home theater will really appreciate the importance of a guitar player noodling with the system to get his/her tone. We've got to figure that part out.

[This message was edited by Steve-at-Bose on Thu October 23 2003 at 03:00 PM.]

Steve, Guitar Center is probably better for sure. Will the pricing be the same as you have already listed - including the package deals?

You will have to check with Guitar Center on their pricing once the product is in their stores.

Thanks Steve and Ken,

The Guitar Center is just down the street from me a couple miles in San Jose, California.

Also, I found out a friend of mine is going to be playing live on Sunday in Palo Alto with a set of the speakers. I'll try to get over there to hear them.

Jim

Well, I did get to hear my friends today, and the sound outside is amazing! I have never heard anything better. Tonight I'm going to hear Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young at Shoreline amphitheatre in Mountain View, for a comparison. I have seen over 150 outdoor concerts there, because it is a great outdoor venue. I just need to keep these Bossa Nova sounds in my head as a comparison... ;-)

Great photo and thanks for sharing!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken-at-Bose:

It will do MUCH better than a conventional system outdoors because the falloff of sound is so much more gradual. If you make a conventional source and a Cylindrical Radiator(tm) speaker the same at 3' (one meter) then by 30' (ten meters) the conventional source will be less than one-tenth the intensity, or more than 10 dB. That's about double the loudness. In other words, A LOT.

---

This Meyer site concludes that what you say is impossible, even with a theorically much better line array system. I don't have time to quote what I mean, but if you look at the link, you'll know what I mean.

I'm not trying to say that you are wrong, but I find it strange that a trustworthy company like Meyer, that has a lot of expertise in line array systems, is writing something at least partially contradictory to your claim.

What is line array? (Meyer)

My experience is that our industry often tries to make things sound good by making data look good. The "is it flat one meter on axis in an anechoic chamber?" measurement is the longest-lasting, most wildly misleading example of this I can think of.

There's a lot of literature out there about line arrays -- some of it very good. But I have to tell you that if we had relied on line array theory -- including these sources -- we would have never made the Cylindrical Radiator(tm) speaker. Conversely, if you listen to this new speaker, you would never find a piece of literature that does a good job of explaining what you hear.

If you listen to the speaker in the size rooms that hold up to about 300 people, and you are like the others that have heard it, you will experience (perceive -- not measure) a falloff of sound that is MUCH more modest than a conventional speaker. It has been described by more than one on this forum as "spooky".

Oftentimes, I have observed that our measurements, and our theories don't fully explain what we hear. When that happens, we don't think the right thing to do is say "oh, I must be hearing wrong." No, we think you should say "gee, what's wrong with my measurements...they don't agree with perception very well in this case?"

I do encourage interested folks to read. But I am cautioning that an awful lot of equipment has been sold on some of the most misleading measurements and data for data's sake.

I'm willing to engage in a discussion about theory and data -- don't get me wrong -- but every time, I'm going to ask "how does it sound?" and work backwards from that into the physical world and the world of measurements.

My ears and the ears of many many others are all hearing the same thing with respect to the sound field created by this new system.

This effect does not hold up forever. At great distances, a 2m tall speaker looks like a point source, and from that distance and further, it behaves like one. Those distances are way past the kinds of distances you find in rooms that hold 300 or less people.

Write back if you have more questions or concerns.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken-at-Bose:
...our theories don't fully explain what we hear. When that happens, we don't think the right thing to do is say "oh, I must be hearing wrong." No, we think you should say "gee, what's wrong with my measurements...they don't agree with perception very well in this case?"...

*Great* post, Ken!

The system is truly amazing. I have done 7 different outdoor venues with my L1 Mod, 2 B1, T1 system and the comments from people were great. 4 of the places are outdoor restaurant areas, 1 pool side, 2 open patio and 1 open, with side curtains and an "L" shape, 3 were driveways (block parties) or actually in their garages, to escape the hot sun.

I didn't even think about being in the front part of a garage, because of the bright, hot sun, but as Billie was singing, I went out front and people, were still able to converse, yet the music easily carried 2 plus houses in both directions.

Also interesting, is that people were sitting on chairs to one side in the garage and still able to talk without a problem.

Everyone thought it sounded terrific and liked it a lot better than my old setup, with the 2 JBL's on a stick, plus 4 peaveys daisy chained to the lawns.

I guess I am so used to this system sounding so good everywhere, that I no longer pester the audience to ask how do you like it ( as one usually does during the first month of a new system). At this point it is just an integral part of our show.