Hey folks,

I'm a regular over at Talkbass.com, a forum for bassists (electric & upright, with about 50k members).

There's a pretty interesting discussion going on about the Bose L1 system over there.

There is a bit of misinformation floating around and some misunderstandings about how the system works, what it is really designed to do, and how it is intended to be applied. I don't want to quote things out-of-context, but there is a lot of negative criticism that I hope 1) you guys can help address and inform and 2) the Bose R&D guys can take into account for future designs and marketing approaches. There are also some suggestions for how the system could be improved, which I hope you guys will address, too!

I want to say that I haven't yet personally used the Bose systems, but I'm *very* much in love with the approach and applaud Bose for developing this system - I am working on booking a show where my group will be able to try them out (I'm withholding the details until it's confirmed, but I'll *definitely* let you guys know what I think!), and if they are even 80% as great as you guys say they are, I'll sell my entire PA in a heartbeat and "go Bose."

Keep in mind that 98% of the folks on this part of the forum are electric bass guitarists (and the rest double on upright bass).

Here is the discussion in context:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=389861

Thoughts? Opinions? Bose folks want to chime in about the decision to use multiple bass bins instead of a dual or quad-in-one, price-point, etc?

The major complaints I keep seeing are:

1) It's too expensive
2) It doesn't reproduce bass well enough

Also, Bose folks, to be frank with you, your marketing is a little frustrating to many, from what I understand - it takes the stance that musicians know very little about running sound, that we want nothing to do with the equipment, that we're singer-songwriters who just happen to be on a stage in front of people, that all these "wires" and "amplifiers" are just so confusing that we would pay thousands just to make it all go away.

At least in the case of many players on Talkbass and many other instrumentalists I know, in reality, as instrumentalists, we care *very* much about our tone - our tones are our voices. We spend countless hours tweaking knobs until our tone is perfect, and we learn everything we can about signal processing, crossover frequencies, etc so that we can sound our best. One look at Talkbass will show intense debates about what metallurgical composition of cables are best, what type of tubes respond best to different types of preamps, frequency response differences between cabs with 1x10" + 1x12" cone and 2x12" cones, etc - and these are "just" bassists! The "wires" and "amplifiers" aren't only not-confusing to many band members, but a big part of our sound. There are *lots* of guys on Talkbass who wouldn't trade their Ampeg SVT 8x10 cabs (@ 165 pounds!) for anything, just because of the "tone".... I feel bad for them, because they seem to forget that the audience isn't hearing that tone the way the musicians hear it when it's mic'ed up in the studio. From what I know of the Bose systems, if these guys just heard a Line6 amp/cab emulation of the SVT/8x10 through the Bose system - from the *audience* perspective - that they'd dump their 8x10s pretty fast. I know some of these guys are very particular about their tone - and so am I, in the studio - but live, the average audience member can't tell a vintage Ampeg SVT tube head with an 8x10 from a Line6 emulation of a Mesa-Boogie bass amp into a couple of JBL Eons, lol.

On the other hand, what I'm saying is, by not telling potential buyers the number of drivers in the towers, the distance between the drivers, the diameter of the drivers, the crossover frequencies, etc, and just talking all pretty about ease-of-use, it feels like you are talking down to us or hiding something... Your marketing doesn't have any frequency charts or much info at all about the L1 system *itself* - all your marketing literature seems to be focused on why the triple systems are flawed, and how the Bose system is so easy to use that we don't even need to know the details. None of the literature or videos demonstrate how to hook up an instrument to the system, or walk us through running an entire band through it, or how to hook up the bass bins to the power stands, or how to determine how many bass bins we should use depending on the gig or instrument, or what kinds of cables are included... It even took me some digging just to find out how many watts the system has! I can understand not posting videos demonstrating the system in use, as it seems that hearing it in person is where the magic is, but what I'm saying is, when all the other companies go so far as to include the number of watts in the model numbers and you don't even address the subject in your marketing videos, it makes us worry that the Bose systems can't cut it in comparison.

As far as the "too expensive" complaint, again, I personally think that it's worth it and see how the Bose approach *saves* money - in our case, it will mean not having to buy a full-size van + trailer, not having to hire a sound guy, being able to play more gigs because a gig = a 3-hour commitment instead of an 8-hour one, etc. But when setting your price points, keep in mind that at many smaller shows (clubs, bars, etc), the band doesn't provide the PA; the venue does. The same goes for the soundguy. So saying that the Bose system is great because it means we no longer need this huge complicated mixer or all these wedge monitors or FOH mains doesn't mean much to many bands, since they're not the ones who provide those things in the first place.

The three clubs my band plays the most all have their own PAs, monitors, consoles, and sound guys. All we bring is our backline. My band does own a modest PA (Mackie VLZ-1604 mixer, 2x JBL Eon 15s, 1x JBL Eon 10), but we have used it maybe five times in the last six months... In fact, we've considered just selling it and renting equipment if/when we need it. Saying that the Bose system replaces normal backline will turn off tone-freak electric guitarists, some of whom love their vintage amps more than their girlfriends, and a fair number of bassists for the same reason. Would it make more sense to market these to venues instead of bands? After all, it seems that the venue owners are the ones getting most of the benefit... They are the ones who can get rid of the huge PA systems, the big monitor desks, racks of outboard gear, the extra labor costs of having a soundguy or two... and they are the ones who really profit from having lower volume, better-distributed sound in their bars (bartenders/wait-staff hearing customers order + customers not leaving because of excessive volume = more sales)... and on top of that, they are the ones who aren't scared to spend $7k on a PA.

The "not producing bass well enough" complaint is easily addressed, in my opinion and in the opinion of several of the other posters on the Talkbass thread.... consider the B1s as "mid-bass" boxes, to be used in conjunction with a real sub, or even just a folded 2x10" or something of that nature. With a 3-way approach (tower, mid-bass boxes, and low-bass cab), it seems that the kick-drum/bass guitar issues could be solved without much difficulty.

I know this post is absurdly long, but I hope this spurs some good discussion.... I, for one, have begun saving for a Bose setup even though I haven't yet tried one in person!

Best regards,

Dave

Hey Dave,

Welcome to the Bose musicians forum. I've read through your post and wow, there is a lot in there. As an "at-Bose" guy I think I'll back down and let the community of owners help with the practical use questions, however, I would like to say that it is my belief that our marketing materials have not made some of the claims that you mentioned ... I know how things get all turned around, like the telephone game of our youth, but let me be more specific.

quote:

Also, Bose folks, to be frank with you, your marketing is a little frustrating to many, from what I understand - it takes the stance that musicians know very little about running sound, that we want nothing to do with the equipment, that we're singer-songwriters who just happen to be on a stage in front of people, that all these "wires" and "amplifiers" are just so confusing that we would pay thousands just to make it all go away.

I believe I have seen every piece of marketing material created for this product since ... well ... since before it came to market. I feel that we've never taken the stance that musicians know very little about running sound, quite the opposite. I believe we have said, repeatedly, that musicians CAN run their own sound that's why the L1 system works. If we felt like musicians could not run their own sound why would we suggest each player have their own remote?

I will say this though, and this is where I think the misinterpretation comes from, our messaging has said something like "it's pretty hard to be a musician on stage and know what the audience is hearing". I'm not sure how that could get misinterpreted but that's why the telephone game is so much fun I guess.

And we have said that the wires and amps are not a part of making music and that most musicians would like it to go away. That data came from our research where we actually went out and interviewed many musicians to find out "what gets in the way of making music night-to-night" and as you can imagine, hooking up all that gear, then troubleshooting a ground loop, came out near the top ... that and not being able to hear each other.

I hope that helps you on your quest to learn more about the L1 system. It is a wonderful system for bass players, but more importantly, it is a wonderful system for musicians who want to play in a group/band/ensemble. Is it right for everyone, no. Is it right for most musicians, yes, as a musician, I think so. I'm a biased of course, but I know this, if I won the lottery and didn't have to work another day, I'd still use L1 systems for my band ... though I'd probably pay someone to lug them in 'cuz I'm rich ... right?

Thanks for coming by our forum for musicians,
Steve

Dave,

There are a lot of misconceptions about bass in general & about the Bose system. I'm still learning along with everyone else, & I'm anxious to see the discussion that your post will bring.

I've read the thread at TalkBass that you are referring to. There are some good points over there, but there's a lot of folks who haven't heard the Bose yet. I think they'd be surprised.

I know the bass player in my band says it's the best he's ever sounded plugged straight in with a 60's P Bass & into the "P" preset, & he's been around for 25 years. I trust his judgement.

Tom

Thanks for your responses, guys.

I'd like to reiterate that I'm paraphrasing some of the more negative criticisms of the Bose systems (and Bose marketing) from Talkbass users, and the consensus from non-Bose-system "converts" over there - *not* necessarily my own beliefs!

Personally, I would *love* not to have to lug a bass cab, PA, etc. I used to lug 2 bass cabs which together weighed 180 pounds, before I discovered neodynium magnet cabs. Now I lug a 55-pound cab to clubs. I would love not to have to lug *anything!* That is 1/2 of why I am so excited about the Bose system. The other 1/2 is the idea that I can get the same great tone I hear on stage, without being ear-bleeding loud, to my audiences - in a word, distribution. Personally, I couldn't care less what your marketing campaign looks like; I'm interested in the performance of the product, haha.

I've done my best to address all the negative criticisms of the system and the approach over on the Talkbass thread, and correct as much of the misinformation as I can. I started this thread hoping you guys could help out, too. I think a lot of these guys could really benefit from experiencing the system, if they only understood what it really is and what it's designed to do. I think this system is a godsend for live performers, and I say this having never actually used one myself... just talking about the approach. Good distribution at a relaxed volume is an ideal I applaud.

I do wish the system were less expensive, but that's not to say I don't think it's worth the price, or overpriced... more that I just can't afford it yet, haha. Hope this clears up a few things!

Looking forward to your responses,

Best,

Dave

I'd like to make a quick comment on my perceived context of "all these "wires" and "amplifiers"."

I think Dave might be thinking of the backline "wires and amplifiers" that connect the tone generation aspect of a musician's sound (fx, etc.). We can all agree that these are definitely important to many musicians, especially the "tube purist" category.

On the other hand the L1 approach speaks to replacing the monitor and front of house "wires and amplifiers" such as snakes, speaker cables, power amps, etc.. This is the tone distribution aspect. Much different, and well worth repeating.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark-at-Bose:
I'd like to make a quick comment on my perceived context of "all these "wires" and "amplifiers"."

I think Dave might be thinking of the backline "wires and amplifiers" that connect the tone generation aspect of a musician's sound (fx, etc.). We can all agree that these are definitely important to many musicians, especially the "tube purist" category.

On the other hand the L1 approach speaks to replacing the monitor and front of house "wires and amplifiers" such as snakes, speaker cables, power amps, etc.. This is the tone distribution aspect. Much different, and well worth repeating.

Thanks for the post, Mark. I was indeed talking about the tone distribution aspect. However, when tone purists read things like this:

"Conventional speakers—particularly guitar amplifiers—tend to be very directional in one tonal range, with a sharp beam of on-axis sound and a duller off-axis sound that is very broadly dispersed in all directions (including up and down). L1 systems spread the sound at nearly 180 degrees, for uniform coverage and smooth, consistent tone" (from the Bose website)

or this:

"all-in-one amplification system.... Onboard ToneMatch Presets, another Bose exclusive, let you quickly optimize the tone of up to 100 specific instruments and microphones, at the touch of a button. For more inputs and a suite of effects and tone-shaping tools, add the optional T1 ToneMatch audio engine" (from Musician's Friend)

they start to get worried that you're trying to get them to give up their favorite backline amps, especially when you announced that you're working together with Line6, you know?

It would be better, I think, if the marketing over-emphasized that you are talking about replacing PA amps and not necessarily guitar/bass amps. I think we can all agree (even the fussiest tone purists) that PA amps are a pain. Personally, I'd love to get rid of my backline bass amp, too - it's heavy and takes up a lot of space in the van, but I think people are getting scared away.

Although as I understand it (I haven't yet tried the Bose system), the Bose *can* serve as a replacement for backline amps, too, I think you are giving the wrong impression and turning people away from the Bose approach entirely by saying "wires" and "amps" can be eliminated. Some of these guys spend hundreds of dollars on each (guitar) cable and thousands upon thousands on their amps... You'd think they'd be all over the idea of near-perfectly distributing that carefully-crafted tone to the entire audience, but from what I'm hearing on Talkbass, they are getting the wrong impression. Just a thought!

Dave,

Thanks for posting! Id like to post my take on being a bass player with an L1, and then Ill answer some of the more pointed tech stuff in another post.

As a bass player I read the talkbass thread and totally understand the sentiment. Ive been on the other side so-to-speak, where I was a skeptic of the L1 approach for bass when I joined the Live Music team in early 2005. I used to use an Eden WT800 head + Eden 410XST cab for every gig and practice I played. I now use a 4 B1 L1 system + T1. Here's how I got there as a bass player...

We as bass players love to live in our 'zone' on stage. For me, this was within 5' for the Eden - if I was singing I would sing my part and retreat back to the Eden. Most of the time everything was too loud - I always wore musicians earplugs. Some rare gigs the sound was great, most it was terrible. I knew it wasnt the Eden's fault - it always sounded great up close or mic'ed in the studio, so I just learned to deal with it. When I demoed an L1 next to my Eden, the key key key comparison is to leave the comfort of the 'amp zone'. I patched a few instrument cables together and was able, for the first time, to really hear what my bass tone sounded like in the audience.

The difference to me was huge. The conventional rig was fairly undefined in the house. It just sounded like tons of bass, and while playing through an L1 it sounded like I wanted to hear it - a bass guitar. From there it just got better when I could hear my bass in balance with the rest of my band playing though L1's.



A common misconception among bass players is that the L1 is trying to replace their amps tone. We are trying to facilitate 'tone delivery' as Chuck mentioned earlier. Now that the audience can more clearly hear the nuances of the bass tone its a much better canvas on which to paint. Lots of folks use 'tone generators' in front of the L1 - whether it be a Bass POD, SansAmp or other DI, then depend on the L1 to deliver to everyone.

Its a total shift in thinking for us bass players, and it is sort of against everything were told a bass amp should be. It *does* take a little time to get used to as a bass player.

More to come,
-Mike

Dave,

A player's perpective as well...nothing technical.
I played with MikeZ in Colorado, and from my position on the far side of the stage with 3 or 4 guitar players between us, I can tell you his tone came thru solid, strong, and punchy. Mike plays with authority, not the slightest *mush* in his sound. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe he was using only 2 B1s as well.
I used to be insistent on the bassist being near me on stage to feel the pulse, but with the L1s it is not necessary.

P

While it's true we are talking about the L1 being the tone distribution system, for a bassist we're not usually talking about mic'ing a bass cab like we might be talking about mic'ing a guitar cab. We are usually talking about replacing the backline amp speaker with the L1. Sometimes this can be done by still using the bassist's amp head for tone, but it's usually accomplished with other outboard gear like a Pod or tube pre or for some bass players just using a preset on the Bose. The TalkBass posters are right that eventually modifying their backline amp by using the L1 is the final result of using this system. But in the end the audience will truly hear the tone that the bass player has worked so hard to obtain.

Tom

quote:

Originally posted by MikeZ-at-Bose:

... We as bass players love to live in our 'zone' on stage. For me, this was within 5' for the Eden - if I was singing I would sing my part and retreat back to the Eden. Most of the time everything was too loud - I always wore musicians earplugs. Some rare gigs the sound was great, most it was terrible. I knew it wasnt the Eden's fault - it always sounded great up close or mic'ed in the studio, so I just learned to deal with it. When I demoed an L1 next to my Eden, the key key key comparison is to leave the comfort of the 'amp zone'. I patched a few instrument cables together and was able, for the first time, to really hear what my bass tone sounded like in the audience.

The difference to me was huge. The conventional rig was fairly undefined in the house. It just sounded like tons of bass, and while playing through an L1 it sounded like I wanted to hear it - a bass guitar. From there it just got better when I could hear my bass in balance with the rest of my band playing though L1's.

A common misconception among bass players is that the L1 is trying to replace their amps tone. We are trying to facilitate 'tone delivery' as Chuck mentioned earlier. Now that the audience can more clearly hear the nuances of the bass tone its a much better canvas on which to paint. Lots of folks use 'tone generators' in front of the L1 - whether it be a Bass POD, SansAmp or other DI, then depend on the L1 to deliver to everyone.

Its a total shift in thinking for us bass players, and it is sort of against everything were told a bass amp should be. It *does* take a little time to get used to as a bass player.

More to come,
-Mike

Very well put, Mike! Do you mind if I quote this on the TB thread?

By the way, I switched from a tube bass preamp to a Line6 POD about two years ago, for all sorts of reasons - consistency, reliability, versatility, and frankly, tone. It has taken me a long time to get the patches tweaked so that I have just the tone I want, and if there is a way to get that sound out to every audience member, no matter where they're sitting, at the correct balance between me and the other instruments... well, sign me up!

I use a Zoom H2 (with built-in stereo mics) to record all of our shows, so I have a fairly good idea of what my bass sounds like in the house. It sounds pretty much nothing like my carefully crafted Line6 patches, lol... We play one specific club fairly frequently, and I can always tell from listening to the recordings which of their 2 regular soundmen was at the board that night, because my bass tone is wildly different between them, even though I use the same Line6 patches - one guy gives the audience this really bright, poppy, Victor Wooten tone, and the other guy gives them this James Jamerson thing. I wish the audience would just get *my* tone! haha

Looking forward to trying out the Bose,

Hi Dave,

I read every word in the Talkbass discussion you mentioned in your lead post. If any of those folks want to come here and ask questions, I am pretty sure that they would be well received and treated with respect.

quote:

Quoting Dave Muscato
The major complaints I keep seeing are:

1) It's too expensive

I wrote a little article about this back in 2005. Years later, I think it is still applicable.

See: Is it too expensive (all in one page) or in it's original format in my blog (6 postings).

quote:

Quoting Dave Muscato

2) It doesn't reproduce bass well enough

I know that this is not *your* perspective, but I thought I'd share one of mine with you.

Personal Perspective:

In all the years of playing electric guitar and singing, I never heard (on stage) what the Bassist was contributing to the band, until I was in a band where the Bassist had an L1™.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

Part 2 - specs and engineering stuff

Specifications are a tough subject for us at Bose. Our company was founded on the principle that traditional audio specifications (freq response charts, sensitivity, polar plots, the list goes on) do not reliably predict performance and sound quality. And for MI gear this is certainly true. We don't give most specs that other manufacturers give because we don't think they are particularly useful in ultimately deciding whether or not a piece of gear is good or not. We rely on letting our customer's ears decide through demonstrations and our 45-day return policy etc. Unfortunately, that de-emphasis on specs gets misinterpreted as though we have something to hide and are being deceitful.

By looking at a spec a prospective customer is trying to answer a question - like, 'is this loud enough?', 'will it make my instrument sound great?' etc. That's the question we would like to discuss and can answer - sometimes even with some specs - around here.

For example, as it relates to the L1, comparing watts to a conventional rig can be really misleading. Steve-at-Bose has the perfect analogy:

What's brighter, a 15 watt fluorescent bulb or a 75 watt incandescent?

Watts really aren't the way to measure the brightness of a bulb, just like they aren't the best unit to measure the loudness of a system. This sort of pertains to all audio specs. The sound and actual experience is the spec that really matters in terms of audio.

RE: B1's

An example of this is the B1. We do say that the B1's frequency response goes down to 40Hz, which it does really well. An SVT 8x10 actually starts to roll off at 60Hz! Does that mean a B1 is better? - no, does it mean the SVT is better? - no. They're totally different animals. A common misconception is that the cab response has to be lower than the fundamental frequency of the lowest bass note. Certainly, in the case of the SVT this not true, I don't hear any 5 string players complaining that they can't hear their B-string :-) Just an example.

In terms of needing a lot of B1's I personally play any gig up to 150 people with 2 B1's. I go for 4 for a bigger crowd than that. Many folks successfully run their L1 rigs with conventional powered speakers cabs to handle the low frequencies. This can be a good way to defray some of the cost and use gear that you may already have.

I hope this answers some of your specs questions or provides a little insight. Keep the questions coming...I'm happy to answer any spec question.

For a lot of reading on Bose and specifications, check out (grab a cup of coffee and settle in :-)): http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3976055944/m/...271011654#6271011654

-Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Muscato:

Do you mind if I quote this on the TB thread?

Sure - got for it:-) Anyone who's interested from talkbass should come on over and join the community here. We'd be happy to answer any and all questions. There are lots of folks here
(many of them bass players) who have many miles on the system who can talk about their experiences.

MikeZ

This message has been edited. Last edited by: MikeZ-at-Bose,

Hi Dave,

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Muscato:
...

I was indeed talking about the tone distribution aspect. However, when tone purists read things like this:

"Conventional speakers—particularly guitar amplifiers—tend to be very directional in one tonal range, with a sharp beam of on-axis sound and a duller off-axis sound that is very broadly dispersed in all directions (including up and down). L1 systems spread the sound at nearly 180 degrees, for uniform coverage and smooth, consistent tone" (from the Bose website)

or this:

"all-in-one amplification system.... Onboard ToneMatch Presets, another Bose exclusive, let you quickly optimize the tone of up to 100 specific instruments and microphones, at the touch of a button. For more inputs and a suite of effects and tone-shaping tools, add the optional T1 ToneMatch audio engine" (from Musician's Friend)

they start to get worried that you're trying to get them to give up their favorite backline amps, especially when you announced that you're working together with Line6, you know?

It would be better, I think, if the marketing over-emphasized that you are talking about replacing PA amps and not necessarily guitar/bass amps. I think we can all agree (even the fussiest tone purists) that PA amps are a pain. Personally, I'd love to get rid of my backline bass amp, too - it's heavy and takes up a lot of space in the van, but I think people are getting scared away.

Although as I understand it (I haven't yet tried the Bose system), the Bose *can* serve as a replacement for backline amps, too, I think you are giving the wrong impression and turning people away from the Bose approach entirely by saying "wires" and "amps" can be eliminated. Some of these guys spend hundreds of dollars on each (guitar) cable and thousands upon thousands on their amps... You'd think they'd be all over the idea of near-perfectly distributing that carefully-crafted tone to the entire audience, but from what I'm hearing on Talkbass, they are getting the wrong impression. Just a thought!

A few of thoughts on this.

I don't think I have ever hauled a piece of gear (amp or speaker) without wishing at least one of these things:
1. I wish I didn't have to bring this.
2. I wish it was lighter.

I have never heard a "wire" or an "amp" make music.

When it came to my wires and amps...
Over the years I spent countless hours (more valuable than the money) looking for a better alternative to the best that I could buy. I was very happy with what I had but still looking when I came upon the L1™. That's what it was, an alternative. It didn't scare me in the least that this thing I was looking at might replace my years of investment. It was just something to consider. I'm glad I did.

Mike, I agree with you re: specs! I wish some of the guys at TB would at least give the system a listen before being so indignant about the importance of specs. Specs can be very misleading and not very useful when it comes to psychoacoustics, in my (admittedly limited and informally learned) experience. I do have a *lot* of respect for these guys, but it still irks me when I read that the system can't work as described, that the physics are impossible, etc.... do they think everyone on this board is just making it up? lol

By way of example re: specs, my guitarist's 2x12 Zinky cab is easily twice the volume (haven't measured with an SPL meter, but I'm dang sure) of his old Marshall 4x12. Everyone knows that 4x12s are louder than 2, right? lol. I know first-hand that better-designed speakers can blow away twice as many of the competition, and I also disagree with the statements from many bassists over on TB that small speakers cannot reproduce bass well. I used to use a Phil Jones bass cab (which had 8x 5" drivers) and that thing moved some SERIOUS low-end air, although I got rid of it because it also weighed 70 pounds and my back's not in such great shape (another reason I'm interested in the Bose approach).

I'm positively not trying to turn this into a Bose forum versus Talkbass thread; on the contrary, I linked to this thread over there and invited all the TBers to come and check out this discussion, so we can clear up some of the more basic misinformation and hopefully answer some questions about how this approach really works.

I'm very glad to hear that you find 2x B1s to be sufficient. One of the things really holding me back has been the price of admission, and knocking $1000 off (Packlite Extended Bass Package) the top is sure a welcome relief.

ST, I'm glad you did, too.... I've learned a lot from your posts

As far as the too expensive point, I've read that article before and I agree with you. If one considers all the factors, the Bose approach is truckloads (literally) cheaper than a triple system - not to mention recurring expenses like paying a soundman, etc. The Bose system does a lot more than just replace FOH, wedges, and sometimes backline: In my personal case, my group is unable to practically travel for shows because we no longer own a full-size van + cargo trailer. Our options are to play locally using my minivan (which is what we've been doing in the meantime), rent or buy a new van, or alternatively, reduce the amount of gear we need for a gig so that we can continue to use the Honda Odyssey minivan I already have. The Bose set-up, for us, would actually replace a new van + trailer, and then we could sell our Mackie 16-channel mixer, JBL Eons, and my bass cab & power amp, too.... Not to mention the advantages regarding load-in/load-out time, being able to accept more varied gigs than just loud rock clubs, being able to travel more (since load-in/out, setup, and soundcheck times are also reduced) = being able to play more shows in the same number of days on the road, not losing your hearing, not having to schlep all that heavy gear.... As I said in a post on Talkbass, even if the Bose setup only sounded 80% as good as a triple-system, it would still be worth it... the fact that many of you folks say it sounds *better* is really incredible - beyond belief for many musicians, unfortunately.

Bose guys, I know it's slow going, but please persist with this approach; you are doing great things for the industry. Portable line arrays are, in my opinion, going to change live music as much as the magnetic pickup did in the '20s and '30s, or the Precision bass in the '50s, etc. Please don't forget that when the first Fender guitars came out, people called them "plank guitars" and laughed. When Fender introduced the solid-body, fretted bass with a short, guitar-like scale, bandleaders raved about the convenience but bassists hated the tone & feel - apples to oranges, IMO. If the Bose system sounds half as good as you say, this is going to change live music forever. I for one cannot wait to hear this system for myself and try it out in person....

Sorry for the novel! lol

quote:

Mike, I agree with you re: specs! I wish some of the guys at TB would at least give the system a listen before being so indignant about the importance of specs.

Dave,

I can't help but wonder, who are you trying to convince about this issue. I personally have been a Bass player for at least 20-30 years. Still have a Fender Jazz Bass and a Gibson EB2, from the late 60's. They both sound great although each different through my Bose L1 Mod II, 2 B1's and a T1, as they should.

I still play for my audience first, bandmates and self next and can't think of why I would care what anyone on Talkbass.com felt about what I am using or why. I am sure they may be a great bunch of musicians, as are the folks here at the Bose forum, but at the "End of the day or gig", it's the audience that decides who and what they want to hear.

For some time I worked with a few musicians that (although they were very good), were too good and too into themselves to play for an audience just wanting to have a good time and be entertained.

I have found that my Bose setup has allowed me so much more freedom to concentrate on the performance and attention to people, rather than the technicalities of what kind of cable, wire, cabinet, Uhaul and other distractions that previous equipment (even with great specs), used to cause.

I am not trying to put anyone down, some players God bless them, obsess over how to wind up cables, gaff down anything in sight and spend an hour plus, sound checking.

We are as "Plug and Play" as you can get and folks love our sound. It just doesn't get much better than that.

Interesting, that some equipment has great specs, but try and return it if it does not work out for your venue. Bose says "Try it for 45 days" if it does not work out for you we will take it back. There is just no way you can be sure how some rooms will sound with gear tested at a music store or your living room.

I'll admit my Bose was good on the first couple of gigs (and I read the documentation), but it sounded terrific after I got used to it and got used to actually hearing my self play and sing. It beat the heck out of those earbuds and floor monitors.
I, as many here on the forum have found out, "As soon as you really start to hear yourself, you can't help but want to work up to the next level". Several friends have commented on how much we have progressed in our harmonies, presentation and overall performance.

6 months after my initial Bose purchase, "It's still the best investment I have ever made".

quote:

Originally posted by Joelheck:
Dave,

I can't help but wonder, who are you trying to convince about this issue....

Actually, my band, haha. My guitarist's teacher uses an L1 + 1x B1 (IIRC) + Line6 POD as his main rig, and he (my guitarist) thinks highly of the system, but doesn't think they're worth the $. Seeing as I'm the one that owns, maintains, etc our current (traditional) PA, and also the one with the van, AND a bad back, I would love to switch to an approach wherein these things are no longer necessary, as much for the practical issues of travel and set-up as the tone/sound distribution ones. While all three of us (usually) help load-in and load-out, I'm the one generally tasked with set-up, monitor mixing, running sound during the show (when we don't have a soundman), since I'm the one most familiar with the equipment.

quote:

Originally posted by Joelheck:

I have found that my Bose setup has allowed me so much more freedom to concentrate on the performance and attention to people, rather than the technicalities of what kind of cable, wire, cabinet, Uhaul and other distractions that previous equipment (even with great specs), used to cause....

That's what I want! lol... It's hard to get lost in a groove if you're also in charge of the monitor board, and similarly hard to give 100% of your energy to a performance if you know you have a sweaty, 45-minute load-out immediately afterward. I am a VERY energetic performer and usually leave the stage completely exhausted, sweaty, and out of breath. The last thing I want when I get off the stage is to haul a van-full of gear.

quote:

Originally posted by Joelheck:

We are as "Plug and Play" as you can get and folks love our sound. It just doesn't get much better than that.

Interesting, that some equipment has great specs, but try and return it if it does not work out for your venue. Bose says "Try it for 45 days" if it does not work out for you we will take it back. There is just no way you can be sure how some rooms will sound with gear tested at a music store or your living room.

I'll admit my Bose was good on the first couple of gigs (and I read the documentation), but it sounded terrific after I got used to it and got used to actually hearing my self play and sing. It beat the heck out of those earbuds and floor monitors.
I, as many here on the forum have found out, "As soon as you really start to hear yourself, you can't help but want to work up to the next level". Several friends have commented on how much we have progressed in our harmonies, presentation and overall performance.

Sounds like a dream come true. As I said before, I can't wait to try it and if it's as good as I hope (or even reasonable close), our current PA is as good as gone.

quote:

I had just purchased the new LI ModII, with 2 B1's and a T1 the saturday before and was slightly concerned how it would work out.

System upgrade? This is a gig I used to use a small 4X6 trailer to bring a Behringer PMX3000, 2 JBL TR125's, 2 Peavey 10's for the back part of the "L" (which is quite a large patio area inside a 30ft tent), along with a 20 x 40ft area, out front and usually need to wear Galaxy 1000 Earbuds if the JBL's are in front of us, speaker stands and a few other odds and ends.

It now all fits into a medium SUV with no issues whatsoever.

To quote Roger MIller "Trailer for sale or rent"
man I hated backing that thing up.

-Joelheck, July 23, 2007

I still play for the Parrotheads (a Jimmy Buffet Club), with about 600 members, split over 2 meetings per month at 2 different clubs. Usually about 200 + show up and they talk loud enough, that I used to have to wear the Earbuds, to hear myself since the JBL's were in front of me.
I was also fighting the reflections from the JBL's off a wall about 30 feet out. At high levels, it was actually tough, but they wanted to boogie. People in the front area camplained it was too loud, folks in the back said "Turn it up we can't hear the music".

I cannot believe the difference now with the quality of sound and improved distribution throughout the area. This is an outdoor gig at a very large covered Lanai, County Club down in Florida.

There is absolutly no camparison to the old days of pulling up out front with the trailer attached and rolling the stuff in, hauling it up on speaker stands (65lbs each). Fortunately, I had help with lifting, but in the Florida heat, you are gonna work up a sweat. Then try to cool down enough to change into a Caribean style outfit and play for 4 hours and look forward to loading it all back into the trailer again. At least I could leave it in the trailer, but I would have to back it into my garage, so it was not out all night.

I now take about 4 minutes, to load the back of my Ford Escape with the Bose system and a small fold down handle cart, 10-15 minutes at the club and I am all set up and break music is playing through the L1. 8-10 minutes for tear down into the car and 4 more minutes to unload when I get home. I have played over 16 different Clubs, Driveways, Stages, Rec Ctrs, etc and have not had an EQ problem that could not be tweaked in a few minutes. Repeat bookings with people commenting on the "Great Sound and Show", have been great.

Dave, the first thing you will notice, your back and your ears will be very happy with the change.

I was initially concerned about the cost. When I added up the cost of my old gear, not to mention the sore back, sweat and people laughing when I back up a trailer, (It was not pretty), and the cost of the trailer itself, the Bose was a good deal and a very worthwhile investment. I have played and sung long enough through other Equipment, to know the difference and my sound is worth it. There is no reason to not sound and give your best.

I can't imagine working now without my Bose L1 system. Actually I can, once a month, we do a gig at an outside Gazebo, with their sound system and sound man (of the day). Most times it's pretty good, some times it's not quite what we would like to enjoy for the next 4 hours. I am hoping to convince them to let us use our L1, for a stage monitor and give them a FOH out to their system.

It is very easy to get spoiled when you can hear and control your sound.

Hoping for some clarification; can I get some input from the Bose engineers, or other technically-minded folks?

I have heard...

1: that the Bose system is a miniature line array
2: that a line array this short (~2 meters) cannot possibly work, even theoretically, for distances and frequencies Bose and Bose users claim it does
3: that the Bose system is NOT a miniature line array per se, but a cylindrical radiator that produces cylindrical waves, which maintain the nearfield effect across a broad frequency range for distances of up to 100 feet
4: that the Bose system cannot possibly produce cylindrical waves as Bose and Bose users claim

As I mentioned, I've not tried the Bose systems personally yet, but I've come to the conclusion that most folks I've talked to who have used or own the systems say that they work as advertised, but that they don't have "thump-in-your-chest" low-end (kick drum, bass, etc) as some listeners (especially drummers and bassists) consider to be a deal-breaker.

Tom Munch sent me some links to other threads here on the Bose forum (thanks, Tom!) that may address part of this issue:

http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3976055944/m/...741099215#3741099215

http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3976055944/m/...=185102735#185102735

http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1506041054/m/...626099115#2626099115

Hi Dave,

I know how you feel, but if you really want to know for sure how I feel, you have to get one yourself. Who else can you believe?

How many times have you played a gig and then asked at the end, "How did the PA sound?" With the L1 you will never have to ask again, in fact one of the neatest things about the L1 is; in use, it disappears. That's true! Your audience won't even notice the system, and if they do mention the sound it will be about how you sound, not how the PA sounds.

Are you ready to show your audience what you are made of? The L1 is transparent you cannot hide behind it. It's time to pull yourself from the mud and be heard clearly.

Listen to that voice in the back of your head, I know it's just a whisper, pay attention, go ahead, dial that number.



O..