I'm working with a boutique amp maker to have a 5e3 (fender tweed deluxe) preamp built for use with the PAS. No speaker or cabinet, just the circuit, tubes, volume knob and a line out. Any thoughts on this approach? Anyone else trying anything like this?

Hi Mr Scarecrow

Here's a thought for your project:

There are probably as many ways to get electric guitar tone as there are electric guitar players. Your method will work and others have done this. However, be aware that loudspeakers developed and used exclusively for electric guitar have sought-after nonlinearities (the motor goes nonlinear when you drive it hard, depending on the design). They also have sought-after tonal qualities that have a lot to do with the mechanical resonant characteristics of the paper diaphragm and its various kinds of suspensions and end conditions thereof. In other words, guitar speakers have distinct sound and tone qualities of their own. They are anything but a linear translator of the amp's tone. In total, the speaker becomes the "sound board" for the electric guitar, just like the sound board of a piano acts. The speaker imparts a special characteristic to the electric guitar signal fed to it by everything upstream such as you are experimenting with. My caution here is if you don't like the tone you get with your proposed setup, it may have a lot to do with not getting tone you love from the speaker too.

Many traditional tube-and-cone players get great results with a little (like 10w) tube amp, an SM57 mic and our new system for delivery of the tone everywhere.

Hi Jscarecrow,

The guitarist in my band has used a variety of methods, a low watt tube amp with an SM57, line out from a Roland microcube and from a small polytone. The rock sounds from the tube amp / mic combo works well.

As a bassist, I use an SVTDI tube direct box. I can get a great simulation of my old ampeg B15 this way. It has a bypass switch for the tube that allows me to get a modern sound in an instant.

Dan

I agree with Cliff Mr Scarecrow. I've tried a few preamps through the PAS, as well as mic'd low watt tube amps and modelers.

The speaker IS a very important piece of the tone puzzle, and the PAS speakers are very "accurate" and sound that way when amplifying a preamp...in other words, a bit sterile. I haven't yet found a preamp or speaker emulator yet that I REALLY like through the PAS, but a few I've tried were ok.

I think you would hear very similar results as what you heard from your H&K Tubeman, if you're just getting the preamp, without the tube power stage, tube rectifier and speaker. A 12AX7 or two can only do so much on its own.

If it's not too late, have your boutique guy make sure the line out is after the power tube stage...that helps a lot. Preamp distortion on it's own can sound a bit fizzy, but if you can catch the power tube it will give it much more body. I'm no electronics wiz, but I'm pretty sure he'd have to introduce some sort of resistive load (dummy load) to do that, but it might be worth it. He'd know more about that than me - but I do know that there are devices out there with the line out tapped after the power tube - like ST's McIntyre Bluesmaker / Lexicon 284.

The other thing I would suggest is to make sure he puts a standard "speaker out" jack on there too. If all else fails, you can always use it as a head and hook it up to a small 1-10" cab and mic it. That way if you decide you don't like the "preamp" sound through the PAS, you've still got a cool little amp to have around the house.

The only minor drawback to this is that the Deluxe 5e3 circuit is around 18 watts, using 2 6V6 power tubes. It would be a little loud to have on stage if you like the sound of the power tubes "opened up" like I do. The 5F1 single ended Champ circuit may be a better bet, unles you really like that extra headroom.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: gittar-jonz,

Thank you both for the help. I'm trying to avoid micing amps at all costs (mostly for the sake of simplicity and portability), so I know I'll have to forfeit the tonal qualities inherent in speaker and cabinet. I'll keep you posted... Perhaps future PAS presets could include Weber vintage speakers a la the 10" tweed Champ??

Hi gittar-jonz,

First, you certainly know your stuff, and I'll chime in with you and Cliff about the the tube pre-amp into the Bose system comments.

I'm curious: Have you tried preset #35 which is the 12" guitar speaker emulation?

I prefer to run the McIntyre (man, you've got a great memory) into channel 3/4 because it has a "loaded" output section from which it taps its line out. But when space is at a premium I'll use Boogie V-Twin into preset #35 and get reasonable results.

That was a great call about adding the speaker out connection.

Speaking of these things of which you know so much, I've got a mid-50's Fender Princeton. I just looked inside and it is an SF2 (if that means anything). For just kickin' back, there's nothing quite like it.

Thanks for the compliment, ST - I do what I likes, and I likes what I do.

I don't have a great memory - just for guitar gear. I retain specs on vintage Fenders better than I remember my kids' names. Speaking of which, a '55 -'60 narrow panel tweed Princeton is one of my absolute favorite amps of all time. Ultimate blues amp...that little 4.5 watts of vintage breakup is the Holy Grail to me...wanna sell it for 50 bucks?

And, yes - I tried the 12" preset...didn't care for it...but that's just me.

Now that I think of it, Jscarecrow, you might want to look into that 5F2 circuit that ST mentioned for your project. Or better yet, pickup a Princeton clone or build one from a kit, and have it modified with a Line Out (you wouldn't want to modify an original vintage one).

The 5F2 is almost identical to the Champ's 5F1 circuit - single ended class A circuit using the same tube compliment - but the output transformer is about twice the size of the Champ. That gives you more bass response and it has a more gradual breakup - you can still get decent clean tones by just backing off a bit, or you can go Billy Gibbons ZZ Top insane and crank it full tilt.

And 5 watts is much louder than you think...

Oh man, you guys are killing me - now I want one of those, too.

Just a quick comment, a 50W 1X12" will be just twice as loud (not 10 times) as a 5W 1X12 (assuming the speakers are the same). Go to www.amptone.com to learn more ... they have a great section on low-watt tube amps. 5W will be loud for sure.

my old 1968 (i think ) Fender champ is only 5w and LOUD.
I miss my Princton trimello . a 'friend' borrowed it and left it in Eruope someplace.

1962 PRINCETON

jscarecrow,
This is what my guitar player uses....it's not the real thing, but it's pretty darn close!

Jeff
www.theunmentionables.com

As great as they sound, some of these old amps can be dangerous. I recently stumbled upon a Fender Champ (two actually) that put a sizable amount of 110 V on the chassis (and the guitar) when plugged in the wrong way. It wasn't a full shock like you get from touching the outlet (since it was cap coupled) but it still zinged quite a bit.
If you have an old amp with a two prong plug, I recommend to bring it to an electrician to refit it with a three prong plug and to properly ground the chassis.
Don't worry, that doesn't change the sound at all

Hilmar

I agree Hilmar. That's the one thing that even the vintage nuts will cut you slack on...just be sure to hang on to the original cord in case you sell the amp to a collector.

And as Hilmar mentioned, some older (1940's) amps and even up to some "cheap" 1960's catalog amps were built without transformers - with full 110v line voltage driving all the components. Not only are these very noisy, humming all the time, but if any short or malfunction occurs while you're playing it, you will most likely die of electrocution...and that can really ruin whatever song you happen to be playing.

By the way, nice "brown" RobertL. Is it yours? Pretty rare - only made for 3 years (60-63) before the blackface took over. Bet it sounds great.

Hilmar
Thanks for the warning.

Been there¹ and there², done that.

¹ at a microphone when holding the guitar, I touched it.
² several feet away after touching it.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

gittar-jonz, no, that is not my amp.
It is for sale on ebay for around $550.
Robert L

RobertL - You have no idea how much my wife is going to hate you for pointing that out to me.

Mesa Engineering has the EXCELLENT Rectifier pre-amp (2 channel) that offers the sound of a mesa amp through a 4x12 cabinet without the amp or 4x12. With the rackmount capability and Mesa's tank-like build quality, that and a rackmount reverb/effect unit could give you the sound you're looking for.

Speaking of Mesa ...

I own their Lone Star Special and it can be run at 5W, 15W or 30W. At 5W it running class A and it is LOUD!! I've used it (mic'ed) at rehearsal and the guys said, "turn the thing down" because I had it lit up. Luckly the master volume works well and I got a great sound at a much lower volume.

I don't gig with it because even though it can run at 5W it weighs 4,566,345 pounds and looks to nice to be beat around. It's my "upstairs" amp (it looks so nice my wife doesn't mind it being out and ready to go).

That's my two cents FWIW.
Steve

That's what I like about the Boogie pre-amp: it's smaller than an amp, lighter, and has "recording" and "live" outputs. Recording gives you the speaker emulation of a full mesa amp/cabinet setup. It's got all the modern touches of the newer Mesa Amps as far as tone controls, etc.

I have a Lone Star, too, for those situations where the L1 isn't as practicle (large outdoor triple amp setups). When I want that class A sound, I use THD YellowJackets and EL-84 tubes in my normally 100 Watt amp.