I've been using the PAS for a few months now for just vocals at a piano bar gig. GREAT! no complaints at all. I go through a little alesis mixer (gor just a touch of reverb, but I'm trying to wean off of it). Last weekend I played a one-man band type of gig- sequencers, keyboards, vocals, etc. room seats about 200, a medium-volume typr gig. It sounded very good, but occasionally I got that "compression" effect, and don't think I was that loud.

Here's my question: If I continue to use a mixer, should I go into chaneels 3 and 4 (I had been using 1 and 2)? I think I followed the gain staging directions, but I have seen a few different versions of them (for instance, the pfd file on this site says the light should be red occasionally, while other threads say back off until you get green. Also, it seems that if I set the mixer optimally, then I have to set the PAS NOT optimally, if I set the PAS to "optimum, then I am driving the mixer - what am I doing wrong? It still sounds great at "normal" volumes, but I'm sure that it can be pushed a bit more thasn I was pushing it the other night.

Hey jazzman,

First of all, I'm stoked to hear that you got a system and that you're enjoying it! Second, you came to exactly the right place to get some help with tweaking it just right for your needs...

Gain staging - Occasional red is OK. More red than green probably means that you're hitting the preamp too hard, so turn down the trim just a bit. Steady red means you're hitting it so hard that you'll likely hear distortion of some kind (compression?) right away. You should be able to set the inputs on your Bose and your mixer to optimum, use the Level controls on the Bose to balance things and the Master on the Bose to set the overall volume. I've been able to play 300-400 seaters with my Master up about 1/2 way (12:00), as long as I was getting hot enough levels to my inputs. If the inputs are too cold, you might get audible distortion from trying to make up for those low input levels by cranking the Master. I'm rambling here - Let me know if you need me to simplify/clarify...

Was it your loud vocal passages that made things sound compressed? Loud keyboard passages? Bass notes from the keys? The more detail in your description, the better we can try to offer some helpful suggestions...

Jazzman,

Best results for me when using a mixer, start with proper gain staging on the mixer.

If you use inputs 1 and 2 you have the option of using presets, and that is my preference.

With a properly staged mixer, input gain on the PS1 cahnnels 1 and 2 will be at or near 0. The input LED on the PS1 should give an accurate indication of proper level.(occasional flashing red)

If you are using PS1 channels 3 and 4 with a mixer, input gain settings will be somewhat higher but there are no indicators other than your ears to make the proper adjustment.

It is possible to set the mixer at optimal and the PS1 channels 1 and 2 at optimal as well, unless you are getting a continous red LED with the PS1 gain set at 0. If that is the case than you would need to make use of 20db pads between the mixer and the PS1.

Oldghm

OK, I think I'm beginning to see where I went wrong. When I plugged my mic directly into the PAS, the trim was at about 10 o'clock. So when I plugged my mixer into it, I left the trim at 10 and started diddling with the mixer. From what you're saying, I will set the mixer at unity, and set the PAS from there, instead of the other way around.

Follow up question: Since me mixer has eq on each channel, should I set channels 1 & 2 to 00? I had been using 16 (because of my beta 58). I basically use a sequencer for midi tracks, a Yamaha S90 (which I like a bit better through the mixer than directly into channel 3 or 4)and a mic. I do use a touch of reverb on my vocals, but I don't really need it. Should I plug my mic directly into the PAS channel one and the mixer into channel 2? Any other suggestions? Whe I do without the mixer completely (mic into channel one, sequencer into channel 2, piano into channel 3), I want for a bit brighter sound for the sequencer (the "smiley" type eq), and I wish the piano was a bit brighter.

I LOVE the system - these are just a few little bugs that I'm working out!

Jazzman,

I don't think there is one "right" way to set up, so I suggest you experiment with various configurations and presets.

I would start with ALL EQ, Mixer and Remote, in a flat setting. (straight up and down, 12:00) When you find a preset that is close to what you want to hear, then adjust EQ, and for me the first choice is the mixer, only going to the remote if I can't get what I want any other way.

To me, vocals seem pretty much straight forward, match mic with preset, and very little additional EQ is neccessary. Instruments are a different story, and can be very personal so twisting knobs may be the only way you can find what you want, but still, straight up and down is a good place to start.

Separate the vocals and instruments with the mixer, Left and Right, match vocal mic and preset to begin with, Beta 58 to version 2 #16 and keyboards to 50 or 51.

I think there are many possibilities for good sound, but you will have to search a little on your own to see what you like.

If you were using your beta 58 straight into the PS1 with the gain at 10:00, that might be a little low, and could cause the "compression" sound you are hearing.

The choice of mixer or no mixer, when the PS1 provides enough inputs without a mixer, is just that; a choice. For me the mixer warmed things up a bit, when I was not yet used to the straight sound from the PAS, as I have become more comfortable with the PAS, the mixer is no longer needed to keep me in my comfort zone. I suspect with a bit more time and experience with the PAS you will feel the same.

I can set up either way, and change back and forth in just a couple of minutes, with very little change in the overall sound.

Keep us posted on your progress and if a question is missed or answer unclear please ask again.

Oldghm

JAZZMAN,
OLDGHM is giving you exellent advise. I would just like to suggest when testing presets ect. stand a good distance from PAS to get an idea what your audience will hear then stand closer to where you'll be playing. With the PAS the difference will be a lot less than with conventional equipment but if circumstances keep you close[within 3 ft] there is a difference.

Jazzman,

Followup on hints from NEBADON2000

Here are some notes about an approach for Auditioning Presets

Thanks to all for the great advice- my next "full" gig is this friday, I'll let you know how it goes.

One final question (at least until saturday)

If I am using a baby mixer (the Alesis 8 usb), and it is close by, and I get all my levels set, do I need to plug in the remote? I get a little confused when I would like to turn up the volume a bit. Do I turn it up at the mixer output, or leave the mixer alone and turn up the remote? If I do turn it up at the remote level, which would I do first, turn up the levels or the master? Or leave them both alone and turn up the trim on the PAS (although that would be cumbersome to do "on the fly"). In other words, if I eq at the mixer level, and the remote is set at 12:00 all the way around, is it doing anything?

I don't mean to be a pain about these questions, just want to make sure I set the PAS as optimally as possible. I am completely comfortable with it when I use it for vocals only at my piano bar gig. Like many others have mentioned, it has done what no PA has ever done in my 20 + years of gigs (and for many of those years, I was gigging 5 nights a week)- it has changed the way I sing (for the better). I just use my voice in a more natural, subtle way now - incredible. And it only took me 2 or 3 weeks to go from lots of reverb (old system) to almost imperceptable reverb (when I got the PAS) - to reverb not required at all. Would never have believed it if I hadn't experienced it for myself. Bravo, Bose!

Hi Jazzman,

If you don't plug in the Remote, the system 'behaves' as though the Remote *is* there, and all the settings are a 12:00 o'clock. This means that you do not have access to all the power in the system because you have no way to turn up the master volume beyond that point.

So ... plug in the Remote.

Also, if you get everything set right, and you need more overall volume then use the Master on the Remote. If you need more control and can manage it between Channels 1 and 2 on the System, then use the Channel volumes.

If you had all your gain staging working just right, then avoid changing the master outputs on the mixer. You will change (mess up) the gain staging. You should not have to change the trims on the System unless you change the master output on the mixer. But if you find yourself in that position, you are probably not going to get more volume if you keep things balanced.


Changes on the Remote Master should have little or no impact on gain staging because you are affecting the main power amp section.

Changes on the Channel volumes should have some but relatively little effect on the gain staging because that's affecting the output of the preamps into the main power section. This is managed internally by the system and it's hard to overdrive it.

Changes outside the system all affect gain staging, so once they are set, leave them alone if you can.


So - once everything is set, use the Remote.

o Overall volume - Remote: Master Volume
o Channel Volumes if you have your signal routed so there is logic associated with what is in each channel.


Does that make sense?

wow! great advice, and so quickly - this forum ROCKS! Thanks - I'll check in again after this weekend.

quote:

Originally posted by jazzman:
If I am using a baby mixer (the Alesis 8 usb), and it is close by, and I get all my levels set, do I need to plug in the remote? I get a little confused when I would like to turn up the volume a bit. Do I turn it up at the mixer output, or leave the mixer alone and turn up the remote? If I do turn it up at the remote level, which would I do first, turn up the levels or the master? Or leave them both alone and turn up the trim on the PAS (although that would be cumbersome to do "on the fly"). In other words, if I eq at the mixer level, and the remote is set at 12:00 all the way around, is it doing anything?

To ST's advice may I add......

Get your mix as good as you can with the mixer, then utilize the remote for balance between the two channels if neccessary and overall volume with the Master control

To keep the thought process simple; think of the EQ controls on the remote as you would an equalizer between any mixer and a power amp, and use as neccessary, or not as the case may be. Think of channel volume controls on the remote in much the same way, power amp controls.

Hope this helps, Oldghm

OK, I followed your good advice on the gig Friday night. Fixed the gain problem completely. Thanks to all who helped. Audience members commented on the clarity of the sound, and said they could understand when I was talking between numbers MUCH better - so much more present and clear. I heard great, and a friend of mine who sits in once in a while on harmonica raved about how well he could hear from the audience, and hear himself on stage.

Follow up question / advice needed: Due to the bizarre stage I have at this place (sort of a quarter-circle design, facing 45 degrees out into the room) I struggled with placement issues. I finally found the best place for the PAS - zero feedback, I could still hear great, etc. It was about 2 - 3 feet to the side facing straight out across the short end of the room (which is the dance floor) I was a bit closer to the PAS than desired - maybe 4 or 5 feet, but I really have no choice on this small stage.

I was a bit puzzled by the fact that the bass presence seemed to roll off when you left the stage (which is only 8 inches off the ground). The bass sounded great from stage - punchy, full, all that stuff. From the audience the sound was still great, but I was wishing for just a touch more bass (warmth?). Will a second B1 help this? Again, in other rooms the bass in fine, and it sounds very good from stage, so I don't know if I need more bass, I just want the bass to "throw better" - does that make sense? And will a second B1 accomplish this? And for Bose guys: can I try out a second B1 for a gig or two to see if it helps?

Thanks again for your help, guys. I want to re-state that the system sounded GREAT last night, I'm just kind of a perfectionist - when you hear sound that great, you push for perfection!

Hi jazzman,

Glad that all worked out well for you. About this...

quote:

I was a bit puzzled by the fact that the bass presence seemed to roll off when you left the stage (which is only 8 inches off the ground). The bass sounded great from stage - punchy, full, all that stuff. From the audience the sound was still great, but I was wishing for just a touch more bass (warmth?). Will a second B1 help this?

The short answer is to try it and see.

quote:

Again, in other rooms the bass in fine,

I've noticed that the way bass 'throws' depends a great deal on the room and placement and even orientation of the B1. Being on a stage (especially a hollow one) seems to increase the difference between what you hear onstage versus in the audience

[wild speculation begins]
I'm guessing that mechanical coupling with the stage is (to a modest degree) turning the floor of the stage into a radiator. The energy transferred to the stage floor is being perceived by you, but is also not going out to the audience.

The net effect is that you hear inordinately more bass onstage than is heard in the audience.
[/wild speculation ends]

When working a hollow stage, if things get boomy, I try to isolate the B1 to diminish the effect with padding between the B1 and the stage floor.

Generally:
Having two B1s doesn't change the 'tonal mix' that I've been able to tell. It does give you more headroom though.

If you stack 'em (or put them really close together) and really drive them, you can get up to 6 dB more out of two than with one.
- 3 dB comes from having twice as many drivers (and you are fully utilizing the 250 watts in the power amp)
- 3 db comes from acoustic coupling (which is why keep them close together).

The benefit of doing this seems most apparent when playing at higher volumes and it's allowing the B1s to 'keep up' with the L1 radiator.

At modest volumes (and I'm not talking about Bass or Kick Drum), I don't hear much difference with two vs. one. There *is* a difference, but I think that has as much to do with stacking the units raises one of them by a foot and I tend to place them differently when there are two.

For Bass and Kick drum I do notice the difference but I think that's because they both need more headroom for transient peaks.

Edit: You do not have to stack the B1s to get the benefit of acoustic coupling. You want to keep the B1s within ¼ λ (wavelength). For frequencies around 100 Hz, you are looking at 2.5-3.0 feet.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

Jazzman,

I think the PAS is well suited for the perfectionist, but also gives people like me the tools necessary to sound as good as we can.

It has been said many times here that Bass is very much room dependent. It took only one gig outdoors for the PAS with double B1's to convince me there is more than enough bass for most "personal" uses. Unfortunantly some of that bass sometimes gets lost in room acoustics.

I can't say that you need a second B1, or that a second B1 will solve all your Bass needs, because of the "room dependent" issues, but I do believe it can make enough difference in many situations that you will not be disapointed with the decision to buy another. On the other hand I think they will allow you the same "trial" period with the B1 as they do with the complete system, so there is no risk.

In the meantime continue to experiment with placement/aiming of the B1, and play with the confidence that if it sounds good to you it will sound fine to your audience.

Oldghm

quote:

Originally posted by ST:
When working a hollow stage, if things get boomy, I try to isolate the B1 to diminish the effect with padding between the B1 and the stage floor.

Generally:
Having two B1s doesn't change the 'tonal mix' that I've been able to tell. It does give you more headroom though...The benefit of doing this seems most apparent when playing at higher volumes and it's allowing the B1s to 'keep up' with the L1 radiator.

Good advice, decoupling the B1 from a hollow stage. Otherwise some frequencies get amplified while others may cancel out completely.

When I added a second B1 to my rig it felt as though it opened up the top end. I don't know if I'm interpreting Hilmar's and others comments correctly, but I've had the impression that in order to preserve the tonal balance the system will limit the L1's output when there's only one B1 attached. With two B1's I seem to get more overall volume across the entire frequency spectrum, not just the bass register.

OK - gotta just say that this forum is the reason that I bought the system in the first place, and now this forum has helped me turn a good sound into a very good sound into a GREAT sound. I followed ST's advice about raising the B1 a bit from the stage - I placed it on a foam-padded trumpet case - not ideal, but all I had at the moment. I will bring a nice piece of foam for the gig next week.

Doing that made for a less bassy sound on stage - I boosted the bass a bit on the mixer, and both performer and audience heard a well balanced bass - the "bass rolloff" factor I mentioned yesterday seemed to go away. I'm comfortable with the gain issues now, and as I tweaked mixer and remote settings ever so slightly over the course of the night, the sound got better and better. A couple of musicians I know stopped in last night, and both said that the sound was very even and clear. Great results! I do think I am going to get a second B1, seeing as how on these "one-man-band" gigs, I do need to thump the bass a bit, and it would be nice to have an extra one when I need it.

Thanks to all who offered advice!!