Chuck and I are talking about stage layouts and he said...

quote:

Originally posted by edgerunner:
Hey ST -

...

The other thing that I am concerned about is a review I read up on Harmony Central that said in essence that Bose made lot's of promises that this set up could deliver for a hard rock band but fell way short and that feedback was a constant problem at sound levels high enough for a rock audience. He ended up returning the equipment and said the Bose rep finally admitted the system was really designed more for acoustic music. Personally I am preaching the LOW STAGE VOL mantra to them to preserve their hearing and for more control over the sound. Still - they are kids who tend to want it LOUD. ;-) So I am concerned that this can pull it off.

I would love to see a rock act using this system live somewhere but on the gigs section of the Bose site I can find nothing listed. Do you know of anyone actively gigging this type of music in the NYC or Boston metro areas?


Chuck

This is for his son and daughter in this band.

http://www.myspace.com/withinthewallsband

(well worth a look and listen).

I'm hoping that the community can get into this with us.

Hey ST and Chuck...I dunno if I can help at all. We don't do that style, per se, but we have our moments where we'll crank up some ZZ Top, Cream, Steppenwolf or Deep Purple.

You'd be welcome to come hear us. We're about 80 miles from you. The big glitch is that our band is off between now and March 15th.

Talk is cheap. Hear it for yourself.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JD1,

From personal experience, here are a few facts I have learned:

1. A double-bass L1 is as loud at the play position as a 4x12 Marshall with a 50w head. The actual amp was a "38w Naylor Combo". (THe 4x12 was probably louder directly in front of it, but who wants to hear THAT?".

2. A 6-B1 L1 system is as loud as a single-cab SVT. Of course, the SVT, like just about any amp, delivers radically different tone everywhere in the room. Of course, playing with most amps and "digging the sound" at the play position is like sticking your head in the sand. Thinking that "it sounds great" and extrapolating to "it sounds great to everyone" is simply being in complete denial of the fact that it only sounds this way at the play position. Off to the side (like for the other bandmates) it sounds dull and distant and down in front of it you get a laser-beam of way too much upper midrange.

3. I witnessed a double-guitar quartet playing at 120dB, C scale on a hand-held SLM 10 feet from the band. The only negative was that one guitar player complained that he "couldn't get away from the sound" like you can by stepping to the side of a typical 4x12. Let this sink in a bit, those who think they love the tone of their instrument.

4. You can play too loud with an L1-equipped system. I think when you do this all the time, all subtlty gets lost, like for instance the words to songs that are new to an audience. My own band has become very proficient at playing for the song and not for your own instrument. The band (basically a 4-piece rock and roll band with 4 vocals) comes down for the vocal and the solos, can play Real Loud on crescendos and Real Quiet on delicate passages requiring an intimate connection with the audience. It's juicy. We have live, single-mic stereo recordings of rehearsals that sound like carefully-mixed multitrack productions. Our goal is to recreate our studio recording live and we're pretty much there. It's difficult, but so is playing music right. The more dynamic your playing is, the more of a treat it is onstage and the more of a treat it is in the audience.

I use two for my rock/metal trio. Yes it is loud enough for a rock band. I'ved used it for my friends thrash band against an acoustic drummer who slams hard on his drums, it was no problem with no feedback.

If you want way loud with this or any system, then you need a mic with great feedback rejection, and proper mic technique.

I would like to repeat my opinion that this is not for, "acoustic, or solo acts." It's an amp plain and simple it's either loud enough or it isn't. And it is.

And it isn't pushing it to be loud enough. This system has plenty of head room.

The guy on harmony central was probably trying to make it as loud as the clubs you walk into and you can't hear someone screaming in your ear at the far end of the joint.

Thanks for the replies guys. I've been doing a ton of reading around the internet (and Dave's threads here and over on the TalkBass forum) and I have seen so many conflicting reports (though mostly positive I must say) that I am just trying to do my due dilligence.

My kid's band (my daughter is the lead singer and son is the Bass player) is getting to the point where they really need to have a sound system to open up better gig opportunities than the local rock club circut. The problem for them is that they range in age from 15 (my son and the keyboard player) to 21 (the drummer). Most of their current audience are their local friends who are still in HS and often can't get rides to shows 1/2 hour or more away. Most clubs demand that you sell tickets and bring in at least 50 or so and you usually don't get paid for these gigs.

So I am developing a business model for them to play local shows in various venues where we will headline and provide sound (where the Bose systems come in). You sell tickets for $8 as a fund raiser for the parish youth group and split the revenue with them roughly 40/60. We've done two of these and have easily drawn 200 kids with no real marketing effort. Opening bands get $100 each (far better than they'll get in local "clubs"), the youth group gets $1000 plus concessions, we get $400 plus merch sales (which the other bands can also do).

Based on this model I figure in one year doing two of these a month, they can easily come close to paying off the PA systems.

The advantages to using PAS systems:
- small form factor (stage and storage) and easy load in/out and set up time.
- keep stage and audience volumes reasonable so that we don't run into possible suits from some hyper parent claiming we damaged their kid's hearing and so we don't get complaints from the pastor's saying it'll bother the neighbors etc.
- COOL look factor: imagine some nice banner strung between the towers or some strobes mounted on top)

The downside to the PAS in this scenario:
- Our guitarist uses Line 6 POD XT Live and a Line 6 Spyder II 4x12 amp. He will need to control the vol of the amp OR learn to tweak his sounds and skip the amp running direct.
- It will take some getting used to but our kids will have the advantage of using the systems regularly. So it may be "unfair" to the other local bands. I will need to figure out an arrangement to help others use this system with little to NO previous exposure.
- cost: yes it's higher than if we just used some simple Mackie system with one or two stage monitors, but I think it'll be worth it and sound WAY better. And as I indicated, if the business model works they can pay them off in 12 - 18 mos.

Thoughts?
Chuck

The POD XTLive is a perfect match for the system, actually. My guitarist uses one, as do the Bose-supported bands (like the band that played at the Model II intro at Musikmesse last year). If you watch the videos posted on Vettaville, you'll see and hear a POD XTLive going straight into the system.

Your guitarist can tell you that the POD actually duplicates much of what's in the Spider: Amp models, effects, etc. He's got redundant capabilities as it stands right now.

Please check your PMs. I've got some additional input for you that I can't post here.

Regards,

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Andrew Douglas,

That's right Ric, about the mic. I've used some fancy mics; condensers like the SM87, Neumann 105 and the lovely Audix VX10; and I'm convinced that they let too much in at show levels. The other instruments will "bloom" and change tone. I think that the best mic for this is the Audix OM5, and believe me, we have them all here. It takes a little getting used to, like you have to be religiously on-mic. But with a little practice and simply trusting what you hear, your voice (every bit of it) gets into the mic and into the air. Very little else gets into it from the stage. For this reason (overall ensemble sound and vocal intel) I think the OM5 is the king of vocal mics for the amplified ensemble.

Cliff is so correct on the value of the OM5, I have used one for two years. Being "on-mic" is right, your technique can not be like the old PA way of backing off of the mic in inches. Now it's more like millimeters...and not very many either.

Tip: With lips touching the mic, all I need to do is *angle* my head position if I want a "thinner", backup vocal type of sound as opposed to a singing straight-in-to-the-mic for a louder, fuller tone when I'm actually duetting with our lead vocalist. My OM5 can get really loud and never feeds back.

Chuck, my thoughts...I listened to your kids music on myspace, and it is quite musical and dynamic. They are good candidates for the L1. They might need to turn down a bit and relearn their approach, but they are young and now is a very good time to do this, as it will save their hearing, and that of their audience. Not to mention the pleasure of playing and singing in front of an L1. If they ever need to get louder in a bigger room, they can always line out into the FOH system. Your economics are right on too.

Chuck...My 5 piece band uses 2 L1s for most of our shows, and for most venues, it's plenty loud enough. We play primarily rock/country music at bar/grill establishments with audiences between 100-300 people and the L1s (classics) have no problem putting out sufficient volume. Our guitars & bass go through their own amps, so we use the L1's primarily to drive the vocals and one acoustic guitar. We occasionally play with an electronic drum kit (when space is limited), and this too goes through the L1s (two B1s each)and produces sufficient volume. The e-drums sometimes push the system pretty hard though, when we've cranked it up (which we do on occasion). Generally speaking, audiences seem to want to hear the music without being blown out, and the bose system allows you to keep lower levels while dispersing the sound throught the room (kinda sounds like a bose commercial), but the Bose folks are on to something with the L1. Go figure.

My band also has a traditional P/A setup (mixing console, amps, stacks, bass bins, etc.) that we use for larger venues, but we try to avoid this where possible. There's one large reception hall in our area that has a room about 85` X 260' where the audiences sometimes get in the 400-500 range that the two L1s just won't cover (volume wise), so we use the "traditional PA" at ths venue. There's usually a large gap between the band and the audience, and it's not just the dance floor.

We have our "regulars" in the audience that have heard us using both the L1 set up and the "traditional" set up. Virtually every time we play with the L1 set up, I hear at least one comment from an audience member about how clear the sound was. I never hear this when we use the traditional system, so we (and the audience) prefer the bose system.

It doesn't look like you would have a volume issue based on your audience estimates. The mobility factor of the bose system is huge. I can fit our entire system (with my guitars and amp) in my 4 door sedan, with room for lighting gear to boot. I occasionally use a vox pedalboard much like the Pod XT Live for smaller clubs (space issues) and the tone is almost as good as my guitar amp, so I'd think your guitarist could get by with the Pod XT Live and may be glad he/she is not having to lug around a heavy amp.

Playing with other bands might be a bit of a challenge as the Bose system takes some time to get used to, but it's worth the effort. A good compromise might be to go with 2 L1s and run them off a mixing console, that way the system would feel a little more natural to the opening acts, and you'd probably have enough inputs to minimize the set-up tasks in between bands.

The key to the L1s (as Ric & Cliff pointed out) is using decent mics (I'm assuming you're using a proper close micing technique). We have an arsenal of various vocal mics (SM 57&58s, Beta 58&87, EV 967s, and Audix OM-7s). We prefer the EV 967s, they're incredibly feedback resistant and sound good with little to no tweaking. The Audix OM-7 is a feedback-limiting monster (our drummer uses one sitting literally 1 foot in front of one of the L1s with no feedback issues), but is a very difficult mic to dial-in. (I'd love to have a tonematch preset for this mic from Bose).

Hey Sooder,
Please check your PMs. I'd like some additional input from you about my similiar band situation.
Thanks, Greg

I would love to hear, and see someone playing through a line6 pod to a bose l1. That's what I do, and I love the sound. I just can't figure out how to put a performance online. I'd like to see what other folks do with the same setup.

Video links...

http://www.harmony-central.com/theater/messe07/hcvideo_...007_bose_model2_demo

http://www.vettaville.nl/vvboseps1.htm

Smooty: My band sets up, from the audience, far left guitar (Tom Yates) using a PodXTLive and OM5, I love the tones he's getting and he's a RealDeal electric guitar player for sure. next is a standard drum kit and OM5 (Tom Beier) and a 4-B1 L1, bass (Steinberger Synapse), 4-B1 L1 and OM5 (GW Jenkins) and Moi on piano (GEM Pro2) and organ (Nord) and OM5. We've been experimenting a lot with mics and this setup is the King. Also, another of our really big problems was bass note definition, like you get in the studio. I think our room roars a bit at 125 Hz, but thie Synapse really allows good definition. I think we're getting really close to our studio recordings in our live show. We'll start to play out in the spring. Maybe I will try to post some recordings we do at rehearsal.

We havn't done an OM7 yet and really must add it to the Audix collection. Cliff Castle at Audix confirms that it's a very close-up mic. But you should be able to get the sweet vocal out of it with the right preset.

Scooder, what presets did you try for the OM7? Did any come close for you? I really tried to make these give you a more natural vocal sound, more like your actual voice. I must say that the OM5 needed the least help of all the popular mics I worked on, and it really gets your vocal into the sires if you use it right.

To all,

The posts related to the Audix OM7 are now in a new discussion:

Audix OM7 Microphone for a Loud Band.

Cliff's post above is copied into that discussion and Scooder's reply to Ciff's question is there too.

quote:

Originally posted by Cliff-at-Bose:

I witnessed a double-guitar quartet playing at 120dB, C scale on a hand-held SLM 10 feet from the band. The only negative was that one guitar player complained that he "couldn't get away from the sound" like you can by stepping to the side of a typical 4x12. Let this sink in a bit, those who think they love the tone of their instrument.

Lol! Yes, if someone wants to get away from their own sound, it should lead them to a few logical deductions better left unstated...as you very tactfully did.

Dennis

I dont know about people who are usually amp snobs (i myself am a moderate one) I never stand directly in front of my amp. the sound I like from my amp is the one I get in the cone of about a 100 degree arc from my cabinet, and its pretty consistent everywhere in that cone aside from the laser beam. I agree with the merits of what the L1 does and is trying to do. I also think that as much as people are tube snobs or whatever, there are lots of "bose L1 snobs" out there.

I'm not trying to start an argument, thats just something i've noticed.

And this thread I"ve found quite interesting because I'm looking at an extensive L1 setup for my prog-rock band.

you dont have them all yet..... i just got my HEIL SOUND PR-35.... THIS THING IS UBER CLEAR... blows kms105 away... make a filter for this ASAP please Bose...... im using the KMS setting for now....its only $249....AND THAT IS AN EXTREME STEAL

Well, we're definitely a rock band and we have no problems with feedback.