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L1® Users Forum Musicians General Forums What Do You Think of This New Approach? Momma get a hammer ......|
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...... there's a fly on the babies head
As the L1 grows in popularity we see more and more in use, and this online community continues to grow as we seek help, understanding, and share our personal experiences. For the sake of conversation here, "as designed" would be defined as "one per person, setup behind performer". What I'm wondering today is; .... Are we aware of the tool we have in our hands? Are we giving our best effort to use it as designed? Are we using the much improved clarity and dispersion to allow us to improve as singers, players, speakers? or... Are we masking the much improved clarity with effects or exaggerated tone. Does our audience expect to hear effects and exaggerated tone, so we have to provide it? How important is clarity to the success of our gig? Do we miss out on anything when used in a more conventional manner? What part of our performance do we lose when used as designed? Is it a compromise when the L1 is used in a conventional manner. Is the L1 like an adjustable wrench, a tool for all jobs? The L1 has moved far past the original designers intent (I think) especially with the adoption by the Djs. Not that they (the designers) didn't know music would sound good through the L1s, just that they were trying to solve known problems with live music. I don't want to choose sides or get argumentative with comments, but encourage each of you to express your thoughts as they might relate to the questions above, or ask additional questions, if you like. These questions were prompted by a conversation I had with an experienced performer after he auditioned the Compact. O.. |
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O - great discussion start by the way - I am personally all for the way-Cliff-intended - one player per person behind, and I always try to recommend this method. I decided I don't even care for the T1 - preferring the straight-in pure clear sound and the simplicity of the original remote.
It is also true that if 2 or 3 musicians want to plug their way into a single system, the Bose sounds better than many/most/all powered speakers on a stick, etc, especially if the volume level is reasonable and low. AND, I have used two systems dual mono as a traditional lef-right PA a few times, and it sounds super. I've also heard recorded music played through two L1's stereo, and this sounds exceptional as well. I've only heard the Compact once, in a GC, so I can't speak to it, plus I have a different solution for this kind of application. The Bose is a wonderful thing - it has extended my personal performing life by a number of years - hopefully a decade before I hang it up. This is great. The fact that it is used in so many different and other-than-intended applications is a bonus, I think. |
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Excellent questions, O, and an excellent thread.
My .02.....
To a great extent, I think many of us are, at least if you were to ask us. However, I've noticed it can be easy to "forget" what you know, and fall into patterns and habits, and ultimately not use the equipment to it's full potential.
Judging from the threads on this forum, I would say often not.
These are all related, of course. As with anything else, I think the habit of trying to make something different and new into the old stuff is common, problematic, and may show a misunderstanding of what you have in front of you. We see evidence of this throughout the forum. If you like things the way they are, then stay the way you are, you don't need the L1. But to complain that this new and truly improved system doesn't sound like the old crappy one shows a misunderstanding of, not only the L1, but what things should be like in the first place. But we get used to hearing bad until it becomes good, sometimes (or at least normal).
All the bad parts - unless that's what you want.
I believe it is, usually. Although the array itself still sounds better than conventional speakers, I believe, that's about all you get - nice sounding speakers. All the other benefits of the L1 are nullified or ignored.
I would say, not. However, with proper understanding of what music and sound SHOULD be like, I think it can be used in way more situations than people think, especially if you think outside the box of conventional "rules". But I don't think it's all things to all people, especially if you don't apply it correctly as intended. For instance, if you were to question it's potential to be used in a rock band situation, to which Bose would reply, "this can be done well", then you plug six instruments and four vocals into one L1 with 1 B1, and say "see, it doesn't work well". As with any tool, you must use it as it was intended to achieve all you can. I guess in the end I don't care; I'm using the L1 as intended, and it's incredible. If others don't agree, that's just more gigs for me. But I do find it disappointing sometimes to see people insist on intentionally misusing the system. It would be like using a diesel semi-tractor and trailor to haul around your briefcase. You could do it, and it would work, technically, but why would you want to do that? Sorry for the long post...  Tres <>< virb.com/tresblackmusic Bose L1 Model II double bass, T1 Taylor GS8 |
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Well I'm not entirely sure what this topic is (exactly) getting at.
We (a Duo) plug into 1 Model 2 with 2 B1's and a Tonematch thus: Lead or Harmony Vocal x 2 Guitar x 1 Keyboard (including Backing tracks) x 1 Sounds sensational to everyone we ask (Agents, Venue Staff, informed Musicians, and "Average Joe" Audiences). It's simply impractical to use 2 systems due to cost and additional setup time. Effects wise we use: Vocal (with Bright Gain setting and a healthy does of reverb) Vocal (Through Keyboard with Reverb or any other fancy vocal Fx I have in my Keyboard - and they are pretty fancy...  )Guitar Fx (Boss GT-8) everything from Wah to Shimmering Chorus/Delays appropriate to the song. Various levels of compression on the Vocal, Guitar and break music. Is this wrong? (I grant you, I wouldn't put 3 or more people through our system....) |
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Hi Oldghm,
We've been at this awhile. I think we met here about five years ago. We've had lots of time to think about this, and to try things. We've also talked with lots of people here, made suggestions, read how those suggestions panned out, good and bad. For all of that, I am still convinced that working with the L1®s 'as designed' will consistently give the L1® owner the best shot at having great sound and a great experience as a performer. I don't think that it is wrong to use the L1® in other ways, I am just not likely to suggest it. If I had direct personal experience that was outside the recommendations that gave me consistently good results then I would write about that here. But I don't have that experience. In other words, performing with an L1® for each player has given me consistently better results that any other approach I've tried. The Compact is a little different. I was always happiest with the sound when I had the Compact only slightly behind me and a couple of feet to the side.
Sometimes I am aware of the L1® as a tool. Most times I want to forget the L1® and play the music.
I get really torn about this. Most of the time I want to do a great show, a great sounding show - because that's why I am there. I am painfully aware that each one of us who uses an L1® has an opportunity to be an ambassador or promoter for the L1®. People look and listen, and if they notice the L1® they may associate the sound, good or bad, with the L1®.
I certainly hope so. Personally - I have.
Well, it's art. If someone wants to use effects or EQ that is their choice. If they want to use reverb, and they are having trouble with feedback or clarity, I am going to suggest that they turn off the effects and listen to how they really sound.
My audiences consistently comment on how clear my sound is. I consistently run without effects on the vocals. But
I auditioned three new songs tonight at a gig. There were lots of positive comments and most were about the lyrics and the sound of the vocal. I thought it was a pretty successful gig. I think the clarity is a major factor here.
Localization and the Cocktail Party Effect
Lengthy sound checks.
I think this depends on the ratio of performers to L1®s.
Until you need a screwdriver.
Thanks for kicking this off. edit: spelling This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST, |
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Thanks for the thoughts, keep them coming.
Hellboy asked,"Is this wrong?" I think if it works for you, it is not wrong, but do we ask the question, Is it as good as it can be? The L1 gives us the opportunity to sound as clear as a well recorded cd. It doesn't matter if we are a solo or a ten piece band. I know that all users are not getting the most from their equipment. So "What we are getting at", hopefully, is conversation that will allow a little closer look at ourselves, our musical goals, our audience's level of enjoyment of our product, and ways to improve any aspect of our performance that might make it all better. Don't be shy, speak up. O.. |
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Good questions, O. But the truth of the matter is only a minority of musicians can afford this system. I have one. I play solo and duo shows.
When I play a solo show I hope I'm using my L1 (M1 with single B1) to it's maximum potential. I plug my SM58 straight into channel 1 with proper preset, and my guitar into channel 2, after the preamp that matches my pickup and a Boss TU-2 tuner. No effects, and I don't miss them a bit. I have a duo partner who does not have an L1, so we run him into a Berhinger 802 and into my L1 line input. It sounds fantastic. Does it sound as good as it could? Probably not. Would most people notice the difference? Problaby not. Can my partner afford a L1 for the few shows we do together? ABSOLUTELY not. We do the best we can with what we have, bro. What most of us have is limited funds.  I blew my wad for the next several year on the L1 - hence the cheapo Behringer. I'm still VERY happy with my sound. I'd love to have a T1 instead of the Behringer and as soon as you send me $500 I will buy one. Until then, I'll muddle along with my "less the optimal" sound. But I sure won't loose any sleep over it! I'm far more concerned with improving my stage prescence that what little sonic improvement I can get by spending an additional $500 to $2,000 US. David This message has been edited. Last edited by: dberch, |
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I think the Bose System's, ( I own Model II 2bins and tonematch and a Compact ) have far exceeded their original expectations. I have done rooms of all sizes with both systems and have found that people want to be entertained........period. How many times have you heard an awesome performer who was musically perfect and the crowd was reacting as if it was piped in music. Then you have heard a group that only knew 3 chords which they could not identify and the crowd loved them. Why? Because they where being "entertained". The audiece only demands that the sound of your music be pleasant to the ear. It need not be acoustically "perfect". Only a conductor or a recording studio may demand that. As for me......the systems allow me to enjoy performing with a wonderful sound no matter where I place it on stage. ( My back also thanks Bose). "That's my story and I'm stickin to it" ) LOL!!!
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For me there are a couple of fundamentals that are outstanding.
1)Hearing what the audience hears, and 2)Clarity Regarding effects, sometimes I want none, and sometimes I want very pronounced effects. It really depends on the song and what I am trying to communicate. I am really glad that the T1 included effects, so that I have the option. |
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How spoiled have we become? I really don't care what other musicians, sound guys say to me about BOSE, we LOVE our system as a duet using backing tracks and live keyboard. Using the L1, enjoying the MANY benefits of the L1 makes one truly give pause when faced with the fact that you will NOT be allowed to use the L1, but use the event's system. WHY? Because the significant other (AKA spouse), who previously wondered WHY we should get the L1, then agreed to "test" the L1 and then PUSHED until we acquired an L1, is afraid that horse arena in which I must play for worship this weekend, will get the L1 DIRTY and possibly damaged. I thought I LOVED the L1, but this is amazing. BTW, in another thread someone commented on the fact that we initially think that for the audience to "hear", especially when outside, that we have to have it loud behind us. This is a habit that must be broken because you can be comfortable with the volume and the audience WILL hear you just fine. I can't tell you how often I have walked the perimeter of one of our concerts and to this day I am still amazed at the coverage without having to blast out the sound. This is truly a remarkable system.
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Hi O (and others),
What a great and provocative thread. I think we need to have a kind of bifocal vision here. The sound of voices and instruments separated in space, coming from the direction of the player, and with players and audience sharing the same sound field is a sensation I never tire of. It is the gold standard for me in live music. Nothing I've ever heard comes close. So I always try to create situations where people can hear that. On the other hand, I feel that I'm immensely practical and I realize that working players face all kinds of situations where they can't set up in the ideal way. Just today someone posted who feels that the "old way" may be better because he's constantly being asked to essential play standing against a wall. Ken |
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I'm not much of an effects guy but sometimes it is fun to use some slapback sound on an old rocker tune or two.
Being one of the early buyers, I kind of feel a kinship with the L1 folks, both staff and forum people. I sort of feel like a pioneer. The Gray Haired Man was a pioneer too. I take it he's pausing in the wilderness and assessing the situation. It's good to chart the progress and plan for the future. I'm just enjoying the ride and when I get too down about life's issues, I remember that it's the L1 that kept me playing live; of that much I'm sure. I'm getting more comfortable with the T1 as I use it and consequently relaxing more which, I think, is a key ingredient to playing live successfully. I'm a non-techie (think the opposite of ST) and so my learning comes in small doses. Some of that's not a bad thing though because I'm mostly focused on a good solid sound that allows me to get free of my inhibitions. Before the L1, the sound issues had me distracted an awful lot. OK, done rambling... |
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First of all O..
Thanks for this thread.
Absolutely! This is without a doubt the most versatile tool on the market today.
Hmm…I try to and do with my all Bose band “the Kings of Swing” but as a hired gun most of the other bands I work with have their own non Bose systems. Still, I run my drums through the L1, staying out of the bands main system.
Absolutely! Especially when playing in an all Bose band. Even when I’m the only one going through my L1 system and every one else is using something else.I don’t have to hit as hard to be heard at the other end of the room. It keeps the onstage volume down. That has to be a benefit for everyone.
The kick gate and the Zeq are about the only effects I use, so my answer would be no.
Not for the kind of music we play.
To me it is paramount but to the audience …I’m not so sure. We did very well with our old system. The difference was in the small venues we had no idea what it sounded like out front and what we brought to the gig was usually over kill. Filling the bandstand and obstructing the audiences’ view. When we played outdoors we had to hire a sound man it was a big expense. With the Kings, my all Bose band, we have in the three years of owning our Bose systems, paid everything off. Just on what we would have spent on a sound crew. Sorry kind of got away from the original question there. My answer is paramount!
Yes, I believe so. We lose the Bose advantage (You know, hearing each musician’s sound coming from where they are playing on stage. Giving the audience the absolute best stereo imaging you could possibly give them.) The compromise (using the L1 as a conventional system) is still better than a conventional system.
In my mind, it is the best multitool for musicians out there, bar none. Starvin |
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Hi everyone,
I must say that I really like this kind of topics.
ST, I think the chance people are able to create really bad sound with an L1 system is much less then if they would use a conventional PA. Don't worry to much... However, I witnessed a person playing through an L1 and sounding really, really, really bad. It turned out he was using his (conventional) mixing console he had left over from his old set-up, using it like it was connected to this old set-up. I had my T1 in my car and in his brake I kindly asked him if he would be interested in a T1 demo... After connecting his two guitars, a vocal mic and backing-track device he never switched back. I guess, I'm trying to say that when people use the system how it is intended, the chance that they will sound bad is very small. Another thought that I had was:' When people in the audience witness bad sound, do they blame the system (any system?) or the sound-guy? I think most of the time they blame the sound-guy...(I know I do.) But I'm not sure if the Bose L1 systems are that well accepted yet. So, that people witnessing bad sound coming from a Bose system, are equally intending to blame it on the sound-guy as they would do listening to a conventional PA system. I guess, this still needs some time... One of the things that surprised me the most in the live music industry is that musicians that have to be (are)bright , open and receptive in order to be able to make music, are very often not open for the new way of amplifying. I Think it has everything to do with the fact that it took them a long time to get 'their sound' right. And they might think it will take them also a long time to get along (get their sound right) with this 'new' way of amplifying. But for them, who baldly dared to be different, and are using the L1 system I see no restrictions in the way they can use the L1. Musicians should experiment with it. I've seen great new ways of using the L1 system. What I call 'the hybrid way' is invented by musicians. It is simply two L1's with 2 B1's on each side in a PA set-up. But placed behind the musicians/band. They don't need monitors and still they are sure of the fact that what they hear on stage, the audience will hear the same. Now, I know for a fact that using the L1 system 'multi-mono' (every band-member his own system) sounds far more richer, but I have to say that I really enjoyed their solution. And in the end, they were very happy with it. (and that is what counts for me...) ha, musicians..aren't they a great species? |
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Hi Wiek,
I agree that the chance that people will create really bad sound with an L1® might be less than with a conventional PA, but when the sound is bad... The L1® looks visibly different so if the sound is bad and people look up to see what is going on, they see the L1®.
I think that if people witness bad sound and they see a conventional sound system, then they just accept that live sound is bad most of the time anyway. They have a list of things they can blame, but since they have low expectations, they may not blame it on anything. They just accept it as live sound. If they do blame on anything, then sure, it might be the sound-guy.
I think that when people witness bad sound and see something different (L1® band for example), then they will blame whatever is noticeably different (L1®). Even if they want to blame the sound-guy, the sound-guy(s) are the guys on the stage with the L1®s. When the sound is good: The audience listens and enjoys the show. To me, an excellent sound system is transparent. It disappears. It is not part of the show. It allows the music to be heard and in doing that, it simply ceases to exist in anyone's consciousness. Hence, an excellent sound system will go unnoticed.
Back in the old days, (not so long ago), learning how to make a sound system sound decent was a daunting task that took great skill. Of course it took a long time to get it right, and I had a lot invested (time, money, ego, emotion). Giving up that investment, letting Bose take care of it, getting back to the music, this might not be easy for some people. Cheers Wiek! |
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Many times I take the L1® for granted. I always go for a pristine sound though, so I think I'm subconsciously aware of how good the sound is. I don't get the compliments I used to get from the audience like I used to when I first used it though, so maybe my sound isn't that good anymore. I also don't find myself as annoyed when I have to run my vocal through a conventional system though, so maybe I do take it for granted.
I'm confident that I use as good an effort as I ever have, but it's funny how your sound can drift & get bad without you knowing it. It's always a good reality check to record a performance & compare it to a previous performance recording.
I found myself asking the exact same question when I had my reverb turned off on my vocal the other day (small room 23%) & then realized it & turned it back on. The sound with the reverb on wasn't as good as with it off. then when I used the Compact the next day straight in with no reverb I remembered how good the natural reverb of a room sounds.
I think this is only true for certain songs where the effects were a major part of the original vocal recording. I don't use it unless I have to. It's easier for a solo because folks don't expect as much production. I expect with a band & with backing tracks that people fall into the trap of thinking they need the over-produced sound they heard on the album. This is a tough call, but I'd always side with keeping it simple & clear.
This is paramount to me. If the lyrics can't be understood then I am not doing a good job. I sing songs where the lyrics are key, & so I always go for clear pronunciation & very little effects. It's an old lesson that more effects just muddies up the vocal & makes the lyrics harder to understand.
Definitely. More singers into one system as in a conventional system means more feedback on the vocal mics, more confusion in hearing yourself to get your pitch right, & more confusion for the audience picking out just who's singing the vocal & playing the leads. Plus I really worry that there is interference somewhere in the room & that means someone isn't hearing every part like I'd like them to hear it. This is especially true if a vocal or instrumental part is actually being canceled out somewhere in the room.
Only the headaches listed in the previous answer. I don't want to think about all the hassles when using the systems more conventionally. I really just want to get to playing & forget about all the technical details. Plug & play is best for me.
Yes. The problem is that it's hard to give up old ways - even after using the L1® for years. The conventional way made logical sense, & it sometimes takes years to get used to new ways of doing things.
In a way it is because it can be used in so many different venues & outdoors so well. Plus it works for any size group when each guy has his own rig. That may be the hardest part about the L1® - it sounds so good & natural that we try to use it in all situations, & sometimes this leads to frustration when it's used more conventionally. I appreciate you bringing this topic up, O, because I think it's easy to lose sight of the great tool we have in the L1® & the strengths of using it like it was first presented. The cost is still a stumbling block for some folks, & definitely feel this. I wish it was presented in catalogs in each section - bass, guitar, keys, vocals, so that folks would consider it instead of a conventional amp. I think it would be easier to swallow the price if everyone saw that it was the way to go for a rig that they could also sing through - kind of like guys used to do with their guitar amps back in the day. |
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Again, great discussion, BUT... it's all us kool-aid guys agreeing with each other! I wish Kova and some of the the other folks who HAVE and DO use the system in different ways would join in...
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Well, I've probably used a pair of Classics and a Model 2 in about as many ways as I can think of ... and almost none of them in the context of a "band at the bar" (the closest to that has been at the Bose User Conferences!!).
For a recent summary of the variety of ways they are "normally" used today, see this note in the church 'auditions' and usage thread. However, I used the L1's in a variety of other ways over the years: -- it's always been better than the installed system (if any!). -- sometimes one L1, sometimes two. -- with mini-mixer(s), anywhere from 3-6 mics and 2-5 acoustic guitars and sometimes an electric bass. Some of the "odder" arrangements included: -- L1 on chairs in a "choir box" -- elevating it about 3', but the primary purpose was to free up space for the performers on the floor! -- L1 on a 'sunken organ' bench behind the pulpit (main podium), with the B1's on top of the organ console so they weren't behind a 'modesty' panel. The performers were on the floor in front of that whole chancel area (~30' from the L1) -- long cable from the mini-mixer to the L1! This was to keep the L1 from being in a corner behind a baby grand piano under a low balcony ... and any other place would have put it at least half-covered by the modesty barrier. So, with that 'citation' .... Absolutely. Using 'as designed' is always the first thought I consider. But that is then immediately modified based on the particulars of the room/venue, the performers, and other (supporting) equipment available (such as mics, mixers, cables, power cords, etc.) The goal is always to provide the best musical 'presentation' ... balancing the sound with the comfort-level of the musicians and the venue. I don't often talk about the L1's as a factor in doing this. I just let the people listen. If they don't seem to be adjusting after a while, I'll then take an opportunity to ask them to "listen to this ..." or "when you're doing this, try listening for ...". On occasion, I've spoken privately to an individual AFTER an event with a few suggestions for things they might try differently the next time. I also occasionally ask different listeners for "how did things sound?", or "any suggestions for how things might sound better?" This is particularly important in the "cave stage" setup in the worship space where the L1's usually reside because it is easy for the drummer and the keyboardist to not remember how different things can sound 'in-the-cave' vs. out in the listening area. I don't use any effects myself; I've never done stuff that I thought required it. In the church setting, the ToneMatch is not normally used ... and no one has requested any reverb or such. No. In 90% of the places I do music, understanding the words -- sung or spoken -- is the most important aspect. Yeah, clarity is important. The main problem with having more than two performers per L1 is in distinguishing the sounds/voices ... as performers! It is much harder to blend/stay together when you can't easily separate "what-I-am-doing" from "what-you-are-doing". Duets are sometimes just fine in a single L1 -- but I find that's true mostly when I and the other person sound distinctly different. When the two of us have similar vocal tone, I go to rather extreme lengths to try to be in separate L1's! However, when a duo is used to rehearsing and performing with a single "conventional" PA system, they don't have any problems with a single L1 ... but, then, they don't know what they are missing. With a large number of performers (more than 3 or 4), there is often a physical intimacy during a pure 'un-amplified' context for which having one-L1-per-person might interfere. Bluegrass groups often prefer to stand close together (at least, as I've seen ... I'm not one!). Also, think about choirs, barbershop quartets, and even a group of acoustic guitars leading a group in worship -- all of these, in my experience, are performing contexts where trying to have 'one-L1-per-person' may tend to get in the way of the performers' environment. I'm not saying it might not be worth the change, but it *could* be a change in the way the performers "relate" to each other. Yes and No. Yes, in that the potential clarity and simplicity possible may not be achieved. No, in that the L1 will almost always be better than any 'point-source'-type PA setup. As ST said ... until you need a screwdriver ... or a blowtorch. |
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David,
Please don't misunderstand the point of this particular thread. I don't mean to speak for ST, but I believe it is not a criticism of people who don't use the Bose systems the way they were intended, because of cost, etc. It was simply to question whether those of us who can afford the systems are using them as intended, and to their full potential. Some of the comments were, I believe, directed towards those who have no intention of using the systems as intended, and set out from the beginning to try and use them as conventional equipment - money not being the issue. Believe me, I understand the financial problems. I've only got a few months left to pay off my system, and haven't paid anything toward it yet, due to the frequency of my gigs being less than expected. I also have several gig situations where a Compact would not only be usable and convenient, but would, frankly, be much more practical. But I can't afford one right now. Tres <>< virb.com/tresblackmusic Bose L1 Model II double bass, T1 Taylor GS8 |
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Hey David - I agree with Tres. It's not about money, it's about the sound. We all start somewhere. You could have JBL speakers, Crown amps and a &99.00 Alesis mixer and still be in the same boat. I play places where other guys are using that cheap Fender PA on a table. We all make the same money. They are happy with the way they sound. Would a T1 make your life better? Maybe, maybe not. I used a 10 year old Mackie mixer until I could afford a T1. The Bose ain't cheap but neither are my guitars or as I think of them the tools of trade. I do want to be limited by my equipment. Let my limitations be because of my talent. I work hard and give up other things in life so I can get the best tools I can afford. Remeber it's all about the love. Roy
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L1® Users Forum Musicians General Forums What Do You Think of This New Approach? Momma get a hammer ......|
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