Hi OneManBand,

Thanks for using The Sketcher. Here is your Sketch.




-- click image to make changes to the live version --

Legend:
L1® Model II
T1 ToneMatch® audio engine
L1® Compact
Orange numbers are Systems and Inputs using those Systems.
Blue filled numbers are Channel connections to/from the T1 ToneMatch® audio engine.
Green numbers are for general notes about the Sketch and connections to non-Bose gear.

There were no notes with this Sketch.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

Hi OneManBand,

Here is your second Sketch.


-- click image to make changes to the live version --

Legend:
L1® Model II
T1 ToneMatch® audio engine
L1® Compact
Orange numbers are Systems and Inputs using those Systems.
Blue filled numbers are Channel connections to/from the T1 ToneMatch® audio engine.
Green numbers are for general notes about the Sketch and connections to non-Bose gear.

There were no notes with this Sketch.

Thanks! I just started a new thread with a link to my sketch. I don't think it has cleared yet. You can kill it and put the questions in here. Or the second sketch here in there... Thanks!

A 5-string bass through a Compact!
Interesting approach.

While a bass guitar, either acoustic or electric, does sound great through a Compact, I wonder about the available headroom when competing with Model IIs.

I'd like to hear more about the idea behind it.

I am sorry - my eyes are going bad.... That was a bass? I thought it was an electric guitar. I will change it.

Hi OneManBand,

Okay - I think I have everything in one place now. Here is your most recent Sketch and below that, your notes.


-- click image to make changes to the live version --

Legend:
L1® Model II
T1 ToneMatch® audio engine
L1® Compact
Orange numbers are Systems and Inputs using those Systems.
Blue filled numbers are Channel connections to/from the T1 ToneMatch® audio engine.
Green numbers are for general notes about the Sketch and connections to non-Bose gear.

quote:

Originally posted by OneManBand:

In summary, I have a wedding coming up with a 7 musicians:
1: drummer,
2: keyboard (split chords and LH bass),
3: elec. and acc. guitars
4: soprano/alto/tenor sax, flute, clarinet
5: trombone, trumpet, violin (probably electric so no feedback))
6: Backup vocals
7: Guest Lead Vocalist

And my equipment consists of the following:
3 sets of L1M2 with 2 B1 and a T1 each.
2 Compacts
A fourth T1
one A1
One energy sub as made popular by Cap.

I am struggling in how best to distribute the equipment over the musicians. Or the musicians over the equipment. I know that I want the lead vocal in one L1 either by himself or with the backup, but not with any other instruments. Any suggestions? Should I use the A1 at all? Or the energy sub? Or the compacts? Should I have the guitarist bring his amp and just reinforce him, or have him go straight into the T1?
Thanks!

Thanks ST! You are incredible. I used to read the forums here religiously, but then I had a baby a number of months back, and between the lack of sleep, the day job, and the gigs, I have not had time to keep up. I am glad to see a lot of the same names still helping out.
Anyway, I do many more gigs as a one/two man band than as a full band, so I have that down pat as far as how to divide up the tracks and musicians to which equipment. But I am not sure what to do here. I was thinking of putting the drums and keyboard bass in one L1/B1x2 with the M8 sub as reinforcement, the guitar and keyboard right hand in another L1/B1x2, the vocals in the third L1/B2x2, and the sax in a compact and the horn/violin in the other compact (both guys in one T1, and send the horns out the aux).
Or should I forget the M8 sub, steal one B2 each from the vocals and the guitar system, and use the extended bass package on the drums/keyboard? Will the (male) vocalist be unhappy? Should I forget the compacts as they won't throw as far? Although the dance floor will be right in front of me and will be packed with over 200 dancers jammed in.
My head hurts.

Hi OneMandBand,

Most importantly - congratulations one the birth of your new baby!

Now back to the music:

How big is the venue? The reason I'm asking - I am wondering if you could run the electric violin through a Compact.

I'll be back in a few minutes with some ideas.

Hi OneManBand,

Here is one way to approach things if the room isn't too big for a Compact to support the violinist.

Summary:
Drums and Keyboards
I moved two B1s over here and added the PackLite. I think you will want four B1s to support the Kick Drum. Try the KickGate® effect.

Lead Vocal and Guitars

Backup Vocal and wind instruments

Compact with T1® - Violin

Compact - not used.


-- click image to make changes to the live version --

Legend:
L1® Model II
T1 ToneMatch® audio engine
L1® Compact
Orange numbers are Systems and Inputs using those Systems.
Blue filled numbers are Channel connections to/from the T1 ToneMatch® audio engine.
Green numbers are for general notes about the Sketch and connections to non-Bose gear.

Quoting OneManBand from The Sketcher

quote:

I have a wedding coming up with a 7 musicians:
1: drummer,
2: keyboard (split chords and LH bass),
3: elec. and acc. guitars
4: soprano/alto/tenor sax, flute, clarinet
5: trombone, trumpet, violin (probably electric so no feedback))
6: Backup vocals
7: Guest Lead Vocalist

Back in a couple of minutes with a follow up post.

Answering specific points in your earlier post.

quote:

Originally posted by OneManBand:
Thanks ST! You are incredible. I used to read the forums here religiously, but then I had a baby a number of months back, and between the lack of sleep, the day job, and the gigs, I have not had time to keep up. I am glad to see a lot of the same names still helping out.

Yep, still here.

quote:

Anyway, I do many more gigs as a one/two man band than as a full band, so I have that down pat as far as how to divide up the tracks and musicians to which equipment. But I am not sure what to do here. I was thinking of putting the drums and keyboard bass in one L1/B1x2 with the M8 sub as reinforcement,

Since you've got the PackLite and enough B1s I'd just use four B1s on this system. I KNOW that this will work. I don't know what will happen if you use the L1® with the M8

quote:

the guitar and keyboard right hand in another L1/B1x2,

I'd keep both sides of the keyboard in one system.

quote:

the vocals in the third L1/B2x2,

I've the the lead vocals coming straight out of system 2, and the backup vocals in system 3. I think this will give you nice separation of the vocals and it should make it easier for both of the vocalists to hear him/herself for monitoring.

quote:

and the sax in a compact and the horn/violin in the other compact (both guys in one T1, and send the horns out the aux).

I've put the wind instruments in the third system with the backup vocalist and I'm using one of the Compacts for the violin.

quote:

Or should I forget the M8 sub, steal one B2 each from the vocals and the guitar system, and use the extended bass package on the drums/keyboard?

Yes

quote:

Will the (male) vocalist be unhappy?

No unless he is a Bass vocalist and singing a great deal in the low end of his range.

quote:

Should I forget the compacts as they won't throw as far?

Depends on the size of the room.

quote:

Although the dance floor will be right in front of me and will be packed with over 200 dancers jammed in.
My head hurts.

Is there a stage? If so, how high is it?

Can you get the dimensions of the room?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

OK. Let me try to answer everything...
The venue is 78x70. With a really high ceiling. There is no stage.
Is there a reason you did not put the violin in with the horns? The violin player is the trumpet/trombone player, so they will never be played at the same time.
This is not a typical wedding where every couple dances in isolation (and space) on the dance floor. It is a very religious wedding so the men dance on one side, and the women on the other side of the dance floor. The problem this presents for me is that the men are packed in almost shoulder to shoulder. The groom will be in the middle with three solid circles of men around him. And they sing when they dance. So I have to penetrate that mass and noise. Because of that, I often find that the L1s are cranked, so that if anything else is going through the main singers system, (which is usually me), I feel the drop in power to my voice. So I would like to keep the guitar (and anything else) out of the main vocal system. Should I give the guitar the other compact (and M8??), or give the sax one compact, the horn/violin the other, and the guitar the third L1 with 1 B1?

Hi OneManBand,

Thanks for this additional information. Comments below:

quote:

Originally posted by OneManBand:
OK. Let me try to answer everything...
The venue is 78x70. With a really high ceiling. There is no stage.

The really high ceilings will have very little impact on the sound disperson from the L1®s but I do find that tall rooms will start to roar (my word) when the volume reaches a certain level. By that I mean that if the overall volume in the room is loud, the natural room reverberation starts to overcome the clarity of L1®s (and everything else).

quote:

Is there a reason you did not put the violin in with the horns? The violin player is the trumpet/trombone player, so they will never be played at the same time.

Okay - we don't need to put the violin through a separate Compact. I was trying to avoid having the all those sound sources playing at the same time through the same system as the backup vocalist. In my overall sense of a mix, I try to leave lots of room for the vocals. And when considering what to put through an L1® I avoid having vocals and instruments that sound similar to a human voice coming through the same L1®.

quote:

This is not a typical wedding where every couple dances in isolation (and space) on the dance floor. It is a very religious wedding so the men dance on one side, and the women on the other side of the dance floor. The problem this presents for me is that the men are packed in almost shoulder to shoulder.

It doesn't sound like the men will be packed should-to-should like a wall directly in front of the the L1®s though. It looks like there will be some room (at least 10 feet feet or more) between the L1®s and the dancers. Am I understaanding this correctly?

It also sounds like you have done this kind of event before. Did you have trouble with the sound dispersion? How close were the L1®s to the dancers?

quote:

The groom will be in the middle with three solid circles of men around him. And they sing when they dance. So I have to penetrate that mass and noise. Because of that, I often find that the L1s are cranked, so that if anything else is going through the main singers system, (which is usually me), I feel the drop in power to my voice. So I would like to keep the guitar (and anything else) out of the main vocal system.

Okay - I understand.

Can you point me to a video or a recording online of this kind of music or ceremony? When I sing and play guitar through the same L1® I naturally moderate the mix between voice and guitar so the guitar does not drown out the vocal. It sounds like this may not work in your situation.

quote:

Should I give the guitar the other compact (and M8??),

or

give the sax one compact, the horn/violin the other, and the guitar the third L1 with 1 B1?

It depends on which instrument(s) you most need to be heard at the back of the room.

If you need the guitar to fill the room because it is the primary mid-range fill-rhythm then I would put that through a Model II. Looking at the specifications for the ESW-M8 I'm not sure that it will support the guitar in this role.

In this room and with the activity you described with Model IIs and Compacts on the same stage I think you will notice this:

If you have two sources; one heard through a Compact and one heard through a Model II, if the mix is about equal volume for both on stage, the source in the Model II will be louder at the back of the room 70-78 feet away.

If you turn up the volume on the Compact so that it sounds as loud as the Model II at the back of the room the Compact will be disproportionately loud in the stage mix.

So looking at the two paragraphs above - which instruments do you think should have a Model II; guitar or wind/violin?

I have not gone "youtube", but my little brother has. Here is a promo clip he put together for his band in the NY/NJ area. (He is the guitar player - and is much improved from this clip in 2010.) At about 2:36 the video pans to the dance floor for a second.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Onm7hxx3gE

"Roar" is the perfect word for it! It reaches a point where you lose the advantages of the system because you have cranked it so hard.

For all practical purposes, the backup vocals are not important at the event. They are bringing in this singer as a guest artist, so my guess is I am not going to do all that much in the way of backup vocals. I just wanted to have the mic set up if I feel the urge to add something. I might even set up my keyboard and my Yamaha VL70m with the breath controller.

I should have at least 10 feet in front of the speakers before the dance floor, although that is where the band will bee set up.

I have done these before, but ten I did not have the compacts, the 4th T1, or the A1. Made my decisions a it easier. And we were having trouble penetrating. I tried raising the speakers, but I think I then lose out on my "line array" advantages somewhat. It does not help that it is carpeted under the band. I wish there was an option to re-orient the speakers to only disperse about 90 degrees for the dancing, and then switch them back to 180 for the dinner.

The guitar is primarily rhythm. I will ride the fader (if he does not bring his volume pedal) and raise him temporarily when he takes a solo. The video clip is pretty close to what my first dance set will sound like.

I probably need to penetrate about 55 feet of the 70.

I wish I had an L1 for both the guitar and the horns. That is why I tried to stick him in with the drums/keys. I think that the drums will not take much juice as they are pretty loud already. And I suppose if the guitar guy uses his amp, that will cut down on the work the L1 has to do. Of course, then if he is using his amp, I can just stick him in a compact and let the horns have the other L1.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: OneManBand,

Hi OneManBand,

Thanks for the video clip. That really helps me to understand what an event like this can be.

If I had more time to experiment with this and if the dance floor was very clearly defined, (and it doesn't look like either is the case here) I might be tempted to put the Compacts at corners of the dance floor beside the white partition, and run a mix specifically for the dancers. I'd create that mix using the fourth T1®. But it could take awhile to get that all dialed in.

Just a tip. If you right click a video at the point that you want someone to see it, you can create a link to exactly that point in the video.

2:34

That is a great idea! If I put a Compact halfway down the dance floor, facing away from the band, will I need to dial in some delay in the T1? I really like that idea.
I actually had wondered with my one man band if I should mix all my track/vocals etc., and set up the three L1s - one behind me, one in the front center of the dance floor an one in the middle center. (instead of splitting drums to one, vocals to the second etc.)

Hi OneManBand,

Here is note Using the T1 digital delay to synchronize with a second L1®

In the note I wrote about using using two microphones and a USB input for the original sound sources. You could just as easily use the other T1®s on the stage as the inputs and use the 4th T1® to create the dance mix with delay.

Set the delay to about 1 millisecond for each foot between the Model IIs and the remote Compact. Then fine-tune by ear.

So now I think the only question is if I should have the guitar bring his amp and use the other compact too, or if I put him in with the drums/keys (with or without his amp).

Hi OneManBand,

I would definitely put the guitar through one of the Model IIs. I know that you prefer to run your own vocal through a Model II without anything else in there, but I think that if the guitarist is not walking all over the vocals, you can probably have him in the L1® in the middle (with the vocalist) or have him come through the system with the horns and violin. If you have him run through his own amp you will have a tougher time managing the stage mix. If he is trying to keep up with what he hears on stage with his amp, things could get rough. If he wants to bring his amp, then I'd put it off stage and put a microphone on it.