Neat stage, huh? It's nice that the venue went to the extent (and by appearances, the thought) that it did to provide this. Looks like plenty of power (actual circuit routing/conditions aside) available, and are those XLR jacks on the riser portions of both levels? Is there a house system?

(refresh me/us on the venue)

(EDIT: disregard - I found it: Legion Hall, East PIA)

Hi Drumr,

Thanks for using The Sketcher! Here's your latest.




-- click image to make changes to the live version --

Legend:
L1® Model I/Classic
L1® Model II
T1 ToneMatch® audio engine
Orange numbers are Systems and Inputs using those Systems.
Blue ringed numbers are Channel connections to/from the Classic and Model I Systems.
Blue filled numbers are Channel connections to/from the T1 ToneMatch™ audio engine.
Green numbers are for general notes about the Sketch and connections to non-Bose gear.

Quoting Drumr from The Sketcher

quote:

Sundown with Bose Gear...it's a longshot, but they might try it someday if I can approach it right.
Keyboardist will insist on running stereo, not sure how to get him in the middle of the stereo soundfield.
Lead vocalist/guitarist in system one turns his gtr way down...like an acoustic approach, or a prop.
Bassist and lead guitarist on system three are loud players, good singers. Not mic'ing amps.
Might be able to talk bassist into system 3 w/4-B1s, otherwise, his big amp w/2-B1s on three.
Might use additional T1.

H Drumr Pete,

Here are your two Sketches posted this afternoon.


-- click image to make changes to the live version --


-- click image to make changes to the live version --

Legend:
L1® Model I/Classic
L1® Model II
T1 ToneMatch® audio engine
Orange numbers are Systems and Inputs using those Systems.
Blue ringed numbers are Channel connections to/from the Classic and Model I Systems.
Blue filled numbers are Channel connections to/from the T1 ToneMatch™ audio engine.
Green numbers are for general notes about the Sketch and connections to non-Bose gear.

Quoting Drumr from The Sketcher

quote:

Sundown with Bose Gear...it's a longshot, but they might try it someday if I can approach it right.
Keyboardist will insist on running stereo, not sure how to get him in the middle of the stereo soundfield.
Lead vocalist/guitarist in system one turns his gtr way down...like an acoustic approach, or a prop.
Bassist and lead guitarist on system three are loud players, good singers. Not mic'ing amps.
Might be able to talk bassist into system 3 w/4-B1s, otherwise, his big amp w/2-B1s on three.
Might use additional T1.

Routing...
Dropped bass amp.
Stereo Leslie for the organ.
This looks like a simple, workable solution,
without having to go with 4 systems.

Hi Drumr,

Here is your latest Sketch.



-- click image to make changes to the live version --

Legend:
L1® Model I/Classic
L1® Model II
T1 ToneMatch® audio engine
Orange numbers are Systems and Inputs using those Systems.
Blue ringed numbers are Channel connections to/from the Classic and Model I Systems.
Blue filled numbers are Channel connections to/from the T1 ToneMatch™ audio engine.
Green numbers are for general notes about the Sketch and connections to non-Bose gear.

Quoting Drumr from The Sketcher

quote:

Midnight Wind w/fill-in bassist (Rick from the Cubs).
4' Elevated Cave Stage.
L-R:
Dick-gtr/voc
Rick-bass/voc
Pete-drums/voc
Chuck-lead gtr
Janice-steel/voc

Second version today (and no, it's no trouble at all).


-- click image to make changes to the live version --

Legend:
L1® Model I/Classic
L1® Model II
T1 ToneMatch® audio engine
Orange numbers are Systems and Inputs using those Systems.
Blue ringed numbers are Channel connections to/from the Classic and Model I Systems.
Blue filled numbers are Channel connections to/from the T1 ToneMatch™ audio engine.
Green numbers are for general notes about the Sketch and connections to non-Bose gear.

Quoting Drumr from The Sketcher

quote:

Midnight Wind w/fill-in bassist (Rick from the Cubs).
4' Elevated Cave Stage.
L-R:
Dick-gtr/voc
Rick-bass/voc
Pete-drums/voc
Chuck-lead gtr
Janice-steel/voc

Thanks ST,

Diane Bellamy, the (founding member and) bassist for this band, got an offer she couldn't refuse.
So we are finishing out booked gigs with a fill-in, it's iffy after that.
It's too bad, she was an excellent bassist who grooved hard, sang great, and made my job easy.
I'm really going to miss her.

She lugged the PA, so we get to pull the L1s into the band now, that is the upside.
The old PA was pretty awful sounding...boomy and dull out front, but monitors were decent.
I look forward to the next gig with better sound.
My only hope is that the groove stays intact and the audience doesn't feel *slighted* by Diane's absence.

Hi Drumr,

Ouch, this is tight.


-- click image to make changes to the live version --

Legend
L1® Model II
T1 ToneMatch® audio engine
   Orange numbers are Systems and Inputs using those Systems.
   Blue filled numbers are Channel connections to/from the T1 ToneMatch® audio engine.
   Green numbers are for general notes about the Sketch and connections to non-Bose gear.

Quoting Drumr from The Sketcher

quote:

Jesse Reed & The Longmire Boys @ The Cafe, Macomb, IL Feb 13th.
w/John, Wiley, & Tommy Longmire.
...and yes, the stage is *that* tight, maybe tighter.

Hi Drumr,

Thanks for using The Sketcher!

Ah, Valentines Day.

Reminds me of when life was simpler.




-- click image to make changes to the live version --

Legend:
L1® Model I/Classic
L1® Model II
T1 ToneMatch® audio engine
Orange numbers are Systems and Inputs using those Systems.
Blue ringed numbers are Channel connections to/from the Classic and Model I Systems.
Blue filled numbers are Channel connections to/from the T1 ToneMatch™ audio engine.
Green numbers are for general notes about the Sketch and connections to non-Bose gear.

Quoting Drumr from The Sketcher

quote:

The Cubs...valentine's dance, Carlinville, Il Feb 14.

Aaah, the sound, the setup, the simplicity.

ST,
This is a pic of the upcoming sketch for the recording session in the church.
From our last recording session a few years back.
At that time I just tapped into their house mixer for the recording...simple.
But I think the sound was degraded some by the long lines.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Drumr,

Hi Drumr,

Here's your Sketch.


-- click image to make changes to the live version --

Legend
L1® Model II
T1 ToneMatch® audio engine
   Orange numbers are Systems and Inputs using those Systems.
   Blue filled numbers are Channel connections to/from the T1 ToneMatch® audio engine.
   Green numbers are for general notes about the Sketch and connections to non-Bose gear.

Quoting Drumr from The Sketcher

quote:

Live recording of *Power of Praise* in their church, Atwood Illinois - June/July 2009.
L1s for vocal (ch1) and keyboard (ch4) monitor, w/presets.
Also for playback of takes.

This is a very large church with a large stage area. Top of sketcher is BACK WALL.

I'm trying to think of a set up that will give the least amount of room echoing back into the mics.
This setup, (short slap off back wall) OR with singers with their BACKS to the audience, and the L1s at the rear of the stage (longer delay time, big room).

What would be your suggestion?

Just checking.

"Top of sketcher is BACK WALL." Back of the stage, the wall that is visible in the picture... is that correct?

Could you give us a ballpark guess at the dimensions of the space?

It looks like you are planning on using the L1®s for monitoring only and relying on a house system for the main space. Is that right?

How big is the main space? (Distance from the stage to the back of the venue?)

quote:

"Top of sketcher is BACK WALL." Back of the stage, the wall that is visible in the picture... is that correct?

Correct.

quote:

Could you give us a ballpark guess at the dimensions of the space?

about 8' wider on each side then the pic...another pic will follow, shows width and depth better.

quote:

It looks like you are planning on using the L1®s for monitoring only and relying on a house system for the main space. Is that right?

Actually, there will be NO mains in operation.
This is strictly for recording, I wish to keep the sanctuary volume down.
My big question is L1s behind, with singers facing rear, or L1s in front of the group, aimed back at them.

To try and figure least amount of room ambience, or the most desirable room abience.
Short slap if L1s aimed to rear of stage, or a big room sound if the L1s are behind the band, and the vocal mics are aimed into the audience and pickup the room.

quote:

How big is the main space? (Distance from the stage to the back of the venue?)

You can tell more from this second picture, there is another 8' or so to the back of the room.
You can see the balcony on one side also, there is a mirror image balcony on the other side.
More to follow...

I am partial to sketch #1, with the singers facing the band on stage, the L1s at the rear, so band can hear while tracking. My only concern is the amount of room ambience coming in from behind the mics.



Sketch #2, singers face the audience, L1s in a typical rear firing monitor position.



Sketch #3, speakers skewed in more to reduce slap off back wall of stage...this might actually work the best, soundwise.



Still, I think #1 would be comfortable, and good eye/ear contact for the band members.
Not to mention better playback sound, with speakers facing the audience.
It might convince these folks that some L1s might help their sound on an every day basis.

I will probably move the trumpet player to the opposite side of the stage for separation from the drums and acoustic piano as well.

Any opinions?

P,

What are they hoping to accomplish with the recording? Sellable cd? Demo only? My thought in asking this is how do they like their sound in that space?

I think that our sanctuary sounds good, so if I thought I wanted to record in there, I might think that it would be the best place because that's where I sound the best (hypothetically speaking). If they like their sound in their sanctuary, do they want their recording to sound like they sound in the room? Then on playback - and I think this is part of what you are trying to work out - how do you differentiate the room reverb caused by the playback from the reverberation of the recorded room? Does that question make sense?

Or, if you are able to set up to minimize or eliminate the "room sound" when you record, on playback can it be as dry sounding to their ears, or will they be hearing the room in "real time" (not the recorded room because you took that out of the equation), but think they are hearing the room acoustics (which they may or may not love) on the recording?

My gosh, if your head isn't spinning after that sentence, congratulations. (On re-reading/editing, I may be asking the same thing twice.)

All that posed...Ordinarily I think I would prefer as close to a performance setting as possible, but since there will be no audience, per se, I like Option #1 best for the sake of intimacy. Being the novice that I am, take this for what it's worth - I don't believe that the direction of the vocal mic's will amount to a hill-of-beans difference in the vocal sound on the recording given the required proximity of their respective mouths/heads to the mic's.

Now set me straight so I can learn, too!

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the additional information and picture and Sketches.

Option #1 Vocalists face rear of stage
If the vocalists are using close-mic technique I wouldn't expect a lot of the sound of the room to get into the recording. I am sure that the room will affect the vocalists' performances in a positive way, if it is a good sounding room.

Option #2/#3 Vocalists facing the audience
Will there be an audience?
You can probably reduce the slap echo by tilting the L1®s down a touch. This would be in addition to skewing.

---

If there will be no audience, then #1 just feels better to me.

If there will be an audience, my gut feeling is to stick with #1 and have the vocalists turn around and face the fplks who came out to listen.

quote:

Originally posted by BabyBlueEyes:
What are they hoping to accomplish with the recording?

This will be a full 12+ song CD. The second CD I've recorded in their space.

quote:

My thought in asking this is how do they like their sound in that space?

They must, since this is the second time...and it would be a real nightmare to record them in my room, as you can imagine.

During their first recording session, I thought their room sounded good...a little boomy in the mids though.

quote:

I think that our sanctuary sounds good, so if I thought I wanted to record in there, I might think that it would be the best place because that's where I sound the best (hypothetically speaking).

Yes, your church sounds nice, it's quite a bit smaller than theirs, and the slapback is more definate.
Also if you remember when Steve & I performed in your church, that the Djembe lost it's low end. So there is something in your room that eats up bass.

quote:

If they like their sound in their sanctuary, do they want their recording to sound like they sound in the room? Then on playback - and I think this is part of what you are trying to work out - how do you differentiate the room reverb caused by the playback from the reverberation of the recorded room? Does that question make sense?

Thinking back to the first CD,I noticed when fixing the vocal mistakes later in my studio, that we had a time getting them to sound like they did in the sanctuary, so there was some ambiance on the recording.

quote:

Or, if you are able to set up to minimize or eliminate the "room sound" when you record, on playback can it be as dry sounding to their ears, or will they be hearing the room in "real time" (not the recorded room because you took that out of the equation), but think they are hearing the room acoustics (which they may or may not love) on the recording?

Good question, one that I had to read three times...I dont' know the answer, but my guess is that they wouldn't know the difference. It's just a me thing.

quote:

Ordinarily I think I would prefer as close to a performance setting as possible...I like Option #1 best for the sake of intimacy.

Right.

quote:

I don't believe that the direction of the vocal mic's will amount to a hill-of-beans difference in the vocal sound on the recording given the required proximity of their respective mouths/heads to the mic's.

Required proximity...for the L1...hmmmm. Remember how that worked for your Dr.Ugs recording?
Lips on the mic sounds one way live, and another on the recording. Too bassy, muffled, nasal.
That opens a whole new can of worms.

However, the good news is, with the singers facing the L1s at the rear of the stage, I don't think eat-the-mic will be necessary. They can sing an inch or two away like they always do, and we should not get any feedback, and the gain at the L1 should be enough for monitoring. I hope so anyway.

quote:

Now set me straight so I can learn, too!

There are no straight answers here, just opinions and results.
We will all learn together when it's over.

'Tis true. Just wanting to learn the ropes correctly, and testing some theories based on what I think I have learned so far.

I just read some more that kind of got buried in the quote above. Right, the Ug's recordings. Good call. Well, and what we did in the studio a couple Christmases ago, too, yes?

So, I guess the question, among others, is how do we use the L1's as monitors when recording and expect to get a good recording since the mic techniques are different? Should it all be done "in the room?" Mic'ing the L1's, and record the amplified voice, not a direct signal? That's more a question for me, I guess. If they are used to the mic being away from them (relatively-speaking), then the way they sound in the room (what they are used to hearing when they perform) should be very close to the recorded signal.

Hmm.

I look forward to hearing how this works out.

quote:

I just read some more that kind of got buried in the quote above

Yes, I just fixed that...you must be online now.

Anyway...with that in mind, maybe I should just tap into their live mixer like last time and leave their stage set up as it always is...no L1s.

But then, like last time, we'll get more out of key singing due to poor monitoring.

Yeah, I jumped too soon. Sorry. I knew you wouldn't leave it that way.

Hi Drumr,

Here is your revised Sketch.
"I just re-read the email from the band leader, and notice there are TWO electronic keyboards."

-- click image to make changes to the live version --

Legend:
L1® Model II
T1 ToneMatch® audio engine
Orange numbers are Systems and Inputs using those Systems.
Blue filled numbers are Channel connections to/from the T1 ToneMatch™ audio engine.
Green numbers are for general notes about the Sketch and connections to non-Bose gear.

Quoting Drumr from The Sketcher

quote:

Live recording of *Power of Praise* in their church, Atwood Illinois - June/July 2009.
L1s for vocal (ch1) and keyboard (ch4) monitor, w/presets.
Also for playback of takes.

This is a very large church with a large stage area. Top of sketcher is BACK WALL.

REVISION:
I just re-read the email from the band leader, and notice there are TWO electronic keyboards.