Hi Tomg,

Thanks for using The Sketcher!




-- click image to make changes to the live version --


Quoting Tomg from The Sketcher

quote:

The guitar on the left is going to get a used Classic with bass from a friend.
I, violin, am debating whether to get:
Model I tower only, or,
Model I tower and Tone box, or,
Model II only, or,
heck with it, go all out and get Model II with Tone box.

Tell me how to save money, or give me a good excuse to spend it - I worked overtime to treat myself.

The audience is three feet in front of us and fifteen feet off to the sides - small coffee shop. Our amps are on the wall.
Where should we put the L1's?

With bigger gigs, we're spread out on outdoor patios - placement should be easier.

Tomg

Back to you soon with some ideas.

Hi Tomg,

Here is your Sketch with a few additions.


-- click image to make changes to the live version --

I have added the used L1® Classic for the Guitarist on the left. I removed the amp for that Guitarist. Is that the plan?

I also added some green markers "Vocal" for the microphones. Can you confirm whether or not you are using the microphones for Vocals?

For you, I put in an L1® Model II with T1 ToneMatch® Audio Engine - mainly because that is the most flexible solution for you on on shallow stage, and it scales just as well to a larger area.

Would you using your L1® for the Guitar and Vocal for the Guitarist next to you?

How big is the coffee shop? (rough dimensions or number of people).

Is that your main gig? If you have the amps mounted on the wall, it sounds fairly permanent. Do you play in other locations much?

What kind of music are you doing?

Please fill in the blanks and I'd be happy to think about your stage layout with you.

Hi Tomg,

Here's a new Sketch with green numbers below the performers so that it will be easier to discuss them.



-- click image to make changes to the live version --


I am wondering if you are considering removing all the amps and using just the L1®s for all the sound reinforcement. Is that the plan? Depending on the size of the room and the type of music you are playing, that could work well.

Do you have a picture of your group you could add to a post? You can add it as an attachment.

Do you have a website?


Edit: I just read your post about Music Stands - so it's Jazz?

Thank you, ST, before joining this forum I read through it and was blown away by your helpfulness and patience. There was a fellow who was having trouble with his computer and he reminded me of me . . . your patience was something to admire, emulate, and share myself.

Yup, I ordered the L1M2/TM and it should be here for next Wednesday's gig. Your placement is where I would have guessed.

Now that we have a Classic and a Model 2, it would be nice to replace all the other amps.

Yes, microphones are for vocals, except I have been using mine also for violin. That has been a problem recently because my bandmate explained how to eat the mic while singing, which means I turn it down, but then I don't/can't/donnwanna eat it with the violin. The smallness of the coffee shop makes hearing it not a problem - out on a patio it might be.

I also repaired my five-string electric which I may also start using on some songs, 1/4 inch cable.

The coffee shop is two large living rooms worth, often packed to its thirty person capacity.

The coffee shop is a weekly get-together. Other gigs are/have been patio decks outside restaurants, wineries, etc., in the future if we want.

We do swing jazz, up through the fifties, mostly.

Oh, we're lucky to be maybe getting a clarinetist regularly. He will be to the left of the bass, with whom he has been sharing a vocal mic. He doesn't seem to need much amplification, even on the patios. I couldn't see how to add him to my sketch.

No website yet. I think I'm attaching a picture.

Thanks again.

edit: resized attachment for faster downloads

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Forum-Admin,

Hi Tomg,

Thanks for your kind thoughts. There is an abundance of the good qualities you mentioned here in the message board. I am glad you joined in.

quote:

Yes, microphones are for vocals, except I have been using mine also for violin. That has been a problem recently because my bandmate explained how to eat the mic while singing, which means I turn it down, but then I don't/can't/donnwanna eat it with the violin. The smallness of the coffee shop makes hearing it not a problem - out on a patio it might be.

I was curious about the relative volumes of vocals and violin. According to hearnet.com

quote:

normal piano practice 60-70 dB
fortissimo singer 3 ft. away 70 dB
chamber music in small auditorium 75-85 dB
regular sustained exposure may cause permanent damage 90-95 dB
piano fortissimo 92-95 dB
violin 84-103 dB
cello 82-92 dB
oboe 90-94 dB
flute 85-111 dB
piccolo 95-112 dB
clarinet 92-103 dB
french horn 90-106 dB
trombone 85-114 dB
timpani & bass drum rolls 106 dB
average Walkman on 5/10 setting 94 dB
symphonic music peak 120-137 dB
amplified rock music at 4-6 ft. 120 dB
rock music peak 150 dB

I have recently started working with a Jazz Violinist who has been joining me at some of my coffee-house solo gigs. Wow, that's been fun! The information above fits with what I am hearing. The Violin does seem noticeably louder than my unaided vocals.

About using the same microphone for Vocals and Violin
Maybe it won't be much of an issue. When I play in close quarters with the L1® it is really important to eat the mic when setting the gain and of course when singing. When there is more room this is less critical. What kind of microphone are you using? We'll want to look at the polar pattern (cardioid, super cardioid, etc.).

quote:

I also repaired my five-string electric which I may also start using on some songs, 1/4 inch cable.

Does the five-string electric have an active pickup / preamp? I guess the easy way to know is - does it take batteries? If it is active or you have preamp in the signal chain, then you can probably use T1® Channel 4/5. If not, then you will probably need to use T1® Channels 1, 2, or 3.

Hi Tomg,

Thanks for adding that picture. Looks like a really nice room and those Guitars - hmmmmm.

The big body Jazzers can sound just great - straight-in without a Preset. If you run them into the L1®s the players may hear them in an entirely new way, because they will hear it all, at ear level. For me, this was something of a revelation.

I use a EV N/D757B, old, which I assume is the older edition of the now 767.

The two guitar players use a Shure 58's

The bass and clarinet share a Shure 57

My five-string has a passive pickup. It has plenty of volume through my Yorkville keyboard amp. I put it through a board today and had to use my L R Baggs Para Acoustic D. I., the industry standard one.

My main instrument will be my regular old acoustic violin. At this point I think I will use the five-string just once and a while.

The decibel chart was interesting.

Hi Tomg

I found some notes about the ElectroVoice N/D757 microphone and I have quoted them below.

The most important thing if it applies to your N/D 757B, is that this is a supercardioid microphone. This means that you need to be on-axis with it for it to work well. I find that when using a supercardioid microphone I have to be quite conscious that it is aimed at the sound source - either me - or an instrument, and that is is pointed at the part of the instrument where I want to pickup the sound.

---

Notes about the Electro-voice N/D757


Supercardioid Dynamic,
Vocal Microphone N/D 757

The Electro-Voice N/D757 is a supercardioid dynamic microphone utilizing a revolutionary neodymium alloy to form the EV-exclusive N/DYM magnet with four times the power potential of conventional microphone magnets. With a computer-optimized design, the N/DYM magnetic structure is maximized in the N/D757 to provide 6 dB more output sensitivity over conventional designs while the more uniform magnetic field lowers distortion during peak sound pressure levels.

Hi Tomg,

From what you have told us about the passive pickup in your 5 string violin, I think you can probably use it without the preamp into T1® Channels 1,2,3. You would probably need the preamp if you want to use T1® Channel 4/5.

This may not be an issue, but with four or five performers using two L1®s, it is good to know the details as we are planning things.

quote:

Originally posted by Tomg:
...
My five-string has a passive pickup. It has plenty of volume through my Yorkville keyboard amp. I put it through a board today and had to use my L R Baggs Para Acoustic D. I., the industry standard one.

My main instrument will be my regular old acoustic violin. At this point I think I will use the five-string just once and a while.

More planning notes coming.

Hi Tomg,

Here's what we have so far. I'll be looking at the wiring soon.

-- click image to make changes to the live version --

Legend:
Orange numbers are Systems and Inputs using those Systems.
Blue ringed numbers are Channel connections to/from the Classic and Model I Systems.
Blue filled numbers are Channel connections to/from the T1 ToneMatch™ audio engine.
Green numbers are for general notes about the Sketch and connections to non-Bose gear.

Quoting Tomg from The Sketcher

quote:

ST Edits
- swapped in specific microphones
- is occasional clarinet
- violin pickup is also occasional / used with LR Baggs Preamp

Hi Tomg,

I've had to make a couple of assumptions in order to make this work. These are:

Bassist has a pickup and a preamp.
Guitarist has pickup and a preamp.

Here's how it would look.



-- click image to make changes to the live version --

Legend:
Orange numbers are Systems and Inputs using those Systems.
Blue ringed numbers are Channel connections to/from the Classic and Model I Systems.
Blue filled numbers are Channel connections to/from the T1 ToneMatch® audio engine.
Green numbers are for general notes about the Sketch and connections to non-Bose gear.

Details

System 1: Bassist / Clarinet / Guitarist

• Channel 1: Vocal Microphone Version 2 Preset: 14 - Shure SM58
• Channel 2: Vocal Microphone / Clarinet Version 2 Preset: 13 - Shure SM57
• Channel 3: Guitar through pickup and preamp. Preamp will probably be required to match impedance, provide tone control and control volume.
• Channel 4: Bass through pickup and preamp. Preamp will probably be required to match impedance, provide tone control and control volume.
  

System 2: Tomg and Guitarist

• Channel 1: Vocal Microphone T1 ToneMatch® Preset: Vocal Mics Vocal Mics ElectroVoice N/D767
• Channel 2: Vocal Microphone T1 ToneMatch® Preset: Vocal Mics Vocal Mics Shure SM58
• Channel 3: Guitar T1 ToneMatch® Preset: Electric Guitars
• Channel 4: Violin through pickup and preamp T1 ToneMatch® Preset: Utility: Flat
  

How does that look to you Tomg?

Good morning ST;

Thank you very much. You have been a big help. I look forward to going through an integrated system. I think I understand it.

Now I'm waiting for delivery Wednesday and playing that night . . .

Hi Tomg,

Please let us know how things go on Wednesday night. I'll be looking forward to hearing about it.

Well, I was overly optimistic but my L1M2 didn't get here for the gig last night.

So, in two weeks . . .

Hi Tomg,

Sorry to hear that you didn't have your new gear in time for the gig last night. But if you have any chance to experiment with your new Model II and T1® when they arrive, please let us know how you make out.

Please check the versions of your firmware on the T1®. Turn the main selector to Prefs, the check versions.

You want to scan through these notes to make sure you have the latest revisions for everything.

T1® firmware updates

L1® Model II Power Stand firmware updates

We used the L1's last night. It was a raving success with us and the audience.

I thought I understood more about the operation of the Tonematch than I did - the confidence of ignorance. The upshot of that was that I can tell you what I did with my L1M2, but was too distracted to know what we did with the other L1M1.

Me, System 2, Tomg and Guitarist

1: Electrovoice N/D757B, preset Electrovoice N/D767
2: Shure 58 (not 57? Hmm, he said 58, gotta check again), preset Shure 58
3: Guitar, no preamp, preset Accordion (no typo)
4: Electrovoice N/D757B, preset Electrovoice N/D767

First lesson learned: when I print out ST's schematic, PRINT IN COLOR. Gray looks like gray.

I did not have my electric violin, so I made channel four into my violin mic, setting it up with the same mic as channel one. This worked great because we have some singers come up. I just set out my vocal mic and stayed back with my violin mic. Something to check on: they were the exact same mics with the exact same presets, settings, effects, and the one used for vocal was louder. I checked every knob, pushing Edit back and forth, and they were identical. Maybe I was imagining it, maybe one was pointing more towards the L1 and the other pointing down for my violin.

The other Shure mic seemed like it needed more to match the Electrovoices. Again, that could have been imagination, voice difference, or mic use. The audience, our lovely critiquer/supporter/fans, didn't seem to notice.

On channel 3, we first tried the Electric Guitar Gibson 3something preset. The guitarist and all were happy. Then we set it to Accordion because that's what the other guitarist had learned he liked from previous L1 experience. He seemed happy with that, too. I didn't debrief him on which was better. I'll check later, but all I heard out of him was how good his guitar sounded through the system. My ears couldn't tell the difference between one preset and the other, but I only have violin ears.

We were outside, my side of the band with the corner of a building behind us. I'll see if I have a picture. That didn't seem to affect anything. For the first time I could hear the bass player's vocals, the other guitars, everything.

As we mentioned before, with the violin right under my ear, I couldn't tell how much I was in the mix, especially when I faded back from the mic and wanted to be a light background. Nobody complained. I should videotape us.

Our critiquer/supporter/fans wandered out and about to verify our bragging that the sound stays clear all around way out there. We were right. Some audience sat ten to twenty yards away, and I noticed one stayed almost the whole show sitting forty to a hundred yards away.

I don't know what the other Classic was doing, but we used no other amps. Everything was through the L1's.

I'm in no particular hurry to use my electric violin - I like having two mics - makes me look important. We didn't have our clarinet player this time, but will in the future as much as possible.

Next, I have to read up and practice on the L1 more. I haven't looked at any of the manuals, yet.

Also, I have a Presonus FirestudioProject 8-channel firewire interface. Can I just go direct from the Model 1 and my Tonematch outs into the interface and record everybody's separate tracks live?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Tomg,

Hi, Tomg:

Thanks for the detailed report! Looks like everyone enjoyed the music.

quote:

Originally posted by Tomg:
... I have a Presonus FirestudioProject 8-channel firewire interface. Can I just go direct from the Model 1 and my Tonematch outs into the interface and record everybody's separate tracks live?

As long as you are only using Channels 1 & 2 on the Model I, then it is simple to take the Line-outs from there and from your T1. Be aware that the Line-out's are "hot" (+4dba) ... if you try to put them into a mic-level input, they will likely be distorted and need a 'pad' to bring them down to a usable level.

We've done two gigs since the last post. I've been having feedback problems. They are squeals from my mics. I have two Electrovoice 757's (obsolete models) for which I use the 767 preset, figuring it should be close enough. I have one 457A, an even older Electrovoice model for which I use a 357? preset.

To cut it short, last night I thought I had found the problem: the 457A was squealing (from old age?) so I replaced it with a friend's new SM58. No more squealing.

Some questions that occurred to me while trying to figure the problem out:

Can mics being too close to each other cause feedback?

If the trim is way high, maxed out (but still green) will it cause more feedback at the same volume than not so much trim but the volume knob up?

Do mics get too old?

How can I re-sketch?

A fellow musician said a vocal mic should be bought depending on the singer's voice, that the 58 is a popular workhorse but maybe not the one to buy. Any other suggestions? Will Guitar Center let me try different ones?

For my acoustic violin, I found I can sing, eating the mic, and play about six inches away. Is that what any other violiners out there do?

Hi Tomg,

Glad you are making progress with your sound.

Some responses follow.

quote:

Originally posted by Tomg:
We've done two gigs since the last post. I've been having feedback problems. They are squeals from my mics. I have two Electrovoice 757's (obsolete models) for which I use the 767 preset, figuring it should be close enough. I have one 457A, an even older Electrovoice model for which I use a 357? preset.

To cut it short, last night I thought I had found the problem: the 457A was squealing (from old age?) so I replaced it with a friend's new SM58. No more squealing.

Great!

quote:

Some questions that occurred to me while trying to figure the problem out:

Can mics being too close to each other cause feedback?

I haven't read anything to support this, but it has seemed this way to me too at times.

quote:

If the trim is way high, maxed out (but still green) will it cause more feedback at the same volume than not so much trim but the volume knob up?

It shouldn't make a difference. I have that on good authority - but that same authority conceded that also acknowledged that at times the anecdotal evidence suggests that it does make a difference. So if you are going to err on the side of caution - lower trim and higher Channel level probably won't hurt the situation - and it may just help.

quote:

Do mics get too old?

Yes. Or rather, the cumulative effect of the inevitable bumps, bruises, moisture... these can have an impact over time.

quote:

How can I re-sketch?

Scroll back up and click whichever Sketch is closer to what you would like to change.

When you click the Sketch it will open in the Sketcher tool. Then you can drag things around with your mouse. If you want to add different instruments - click the button near the left middle - "Show Instruments"

When you are done click the button "Save Changes". It is on the gray bar that runs horizontally across the screen.

When you have done that, the next step - getting it posted here is up to me. I'll do that for you next time I'm online.

quote:

A fellow musician said a vocal mic should be bought depending on the singer's voice, that the 58 is a popular workhorse but maybe not the one to buy.

I guess you go with the microphone that serves you best. If you are singing more than playing violin, or if the choice of microphone makes more difference to your voice than to the violin, and that is a priority for you - then yes.

Choice of microphone can be as personal as choice of instrument.

quote:

Any other suggestions? Will Guitar Center let me try different ones?

I would call ahead to find out.

quote:

For my acoustic violin, I found I can sing, eating the mic, and play about six inches away. Is that what any other violiners out there do?

This doesn't surprise me.

I don't play violin, but my understanding and limited experience is that the violin tends to be louder than a human voice.

I'm glad you've noticed mic/mic proximity might be a factor, although I don't really see how, unless it has to do with sound wave path. An acoustian will have to answer that.

I am not 100% sure the squealing was caused by the old mic. After the gig, I remembered that we had set the system up at a friend's house, and we noticed the proximity thing with the other two EV mics. Of course, they are old, too . . .

Two gigs ago we played on a chattery, noisy restaurant outside patio deck. We were plenty loud where we were playing, but 20 - 30 feet out the band was very faint to me. Having heard the sound carrying anecdotes, I was surprised and maybe was expecting too much magic. Because of the squealing problem, we couldn't turn it up any louder. We'll play there again in several weeks and I'll try again with the new setup/mic.

If I can borrow my sister's camcorder and have someone record us while walking around the venue, I might get a more objective view.

However, I did hear the other band members on the other side very well for the first time and was happy about that.

I will choose my mic to fit my voice. I sing less than I play, but my voice should sound more like me.

What do you think about the L1's being as close as they are in the photo? My friend had been advised that it was a good idea.

Now I'll go and update the Sketcher.