I am using the L1's for a different use than most and looking for some guidance. We do seminars in hotel ballrooms, approx 400 people. We set the L1's up behind the stage at the sides of the stage, about 50 feet apart. We use two wireless lavalier mics, one handheld mic for audience Q's and an ipod for music between breaks. The sound is good, but when it cranks up we get feedback. Also, when we try to use a mixer, it distorts and sounds terrible. We've tried every variation of the presets and wiring configurations, but no luck. At this point, we use several Y-jacks and splitters for using the 2 l1's with the multiple mics.

Any suggestions on how to run a mixer for this application?

Hello Bronchick,

I'm glad you found your way to these message boards. Your situation is a little out of the norm, but as it turns out, we had a similar question come up awhile back.

I think your feedback may be the result of asking the L1™s to "project" farther into a large space (turning up the volume) when another approach would be more effective - moving one L1™ out into listening area. Rather than trying to project all the way to back, from the front of the space, you could cover the back half (or most distant half) with your second L1™.

You may want to have a couple of different plans for different sized rooms.

Please see Presenter in a Hotel Ballroom

After all this time, I realize that there may be a few more notes to add to that discussion (linked above), and I'll get working on those. I have only sporadic access to the Internet right now so may take me a day or two to get to that.

Hi again Bronchick,

In re-thinking this, please tell me if it is important that the ipod music be heard 'well' (during the breaks).

Here is why I'm asking:

If the ipod music is just background (its presence signalling "we are on a break") then I might just run that from a single L1™ from the front or from the second L1™ farther back in the room. If it is not necessary to run the music through both, then this simplifies things a bit.

Can you tell me what kind of equipment you have (make/model link if you have it) for:

• mixer
  
• microphones
  
• any other equipment you have in the signal chain (effects)
  
• even if you are not using it right now, do you have an effects processor (we're looking for a digital delay).... what kind
  
• even if you are not using it right now, do you have a separate wireless transmitter and receiver - not for the microphones but for a line-level signal. I'm thinking about using this to "connect" the two L1™s.
  

Sorry for the shopping list, but if you tell me what you have on hand, I can be much more specific in any suggestions.

Thanks



Still thinking...

Hi Bronchick,

I have added some more notes in Presenter in a Hotel Ballroom.

This includes a new diagram with colour coding showing connections for two Systems.

Thanks for the reply. I just got this because I forget to turn on notifications!

Anyway...

We use the two high-end AT wireless lavs and we use a splitter running XLR into the channel one and two in dual mono. The IPOD is just background music, so we unplug one of the mics during the break, then plug in the ipod, then back.

I do have another senheiser wireless guitar system, which we can use to shoot the signal to the back of the room.

We have a small mackie mixer, as well as a 6 line commercial-grade Shure mixer (I don't recall the model, but it was pricey and its the same one the hotels general use to mix mics).

When we go through the mixer, it seems like we are getting the typical double-preamp distortion. Is there a way to bypass the Bose pre-amp?

Hi Bronchick,

quote:

When we go through the mixer, it seems like we are getting the typical double-preamp distortion.

On the PS1 Powerstand, near the inputs for Channels 1 and 2 there are o/l (overload) lights. Are you seeing solid green (good), flickering red occasionally (also ok) or solid red (definitely overloading)? For more details please see: What do the LEDs mean

quote:

Is there a way to bypass the Bose pre-amp?

The short answer is "no", if you run into Channels 1 or 2. XLR or ¼ inch, Channels 1 and 2 go through the preamps.

BUT

If you can run ¼ unbalanced from your mixer(s), route this to to any of the PS1 Powerstand ¼ inch inputs (Channels 1,2,3,4) the input sensitivity is much lower - intended for line level inputs.

If you have to run XLR from the mixers to the PS1 Powerstand, you may need Pads. (See: Pad in the wiki for details.

Many of the Mackie mixers have a switch near the main XLR outputs to lower the output level (you want the lower level when running to the PS1 Powerstand).

Can you find out the make/model (a link would be nice) of the Mackie and Shure mixers? I'd like to do a little research on this.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

Here's a picture of a Mackie amp with a switch beside the XLR Main Outputs.

The other thing to realize is that while the L1 has a more uniform dispersion than conventional speakers, on some occassions that can work against "preventing feedback".

Huh? Well, when using lavalier mics, the mic element is pretty far from the mouth, and is often omnidirectional. With conventional loudspeakers, you can just move the mic further from the closest loudspeaker to reduce the feedback significantly. Not so with the L1.

I had a situation where I was getting feedback outdoors when the person with the lavalier mic was at least 50 feet from the single L1 amplifying that signal -- but they weren't getting feedback when only 20' away! Why? Perhaps because at 20' they were wearing the mic and had their back to the L1. At 50' the person had taken the mic off and was hand-holding it while "interviewing" an audience member.

I did not expect that -- but it was a clear demonstration of why mouth-to-mic distance is so critical, and why the L1 causes one to re-think conventional "audio reinforcement wisdom".

That was a situation where I wished for a "feedback ferret" (automatic frequency notching) -- that outdoor setting was actually somewhat like a very large room, because the L1 was on a trailer/stage, it was in a parking lot between two 2-story building, and with a "wall" of 2-story buildings across the street. I cured the feedback by killing more of highs and some of the lows, but would have preferred a more selective notching because it seemed to be a "room resonance" feedback.

I know that musicians don't like those "auto-anit-feedback" units, but for speaking voices in a room, if they are put only on the "speaking mics", then can be helpful -- with the L1, they could be even more "useable" as a means of managing room resonances because of the more uniform "sound field" from the L1.

(Note to self: I have one available, which I haven't used with the L1 yet, but we do have one mic used for Sunday church services which is only used for speaking ... try this out ...)

We've had a similar problem and are still trying to rectify it. We have a Bose L1 Model II with one bass unit. Our intended use is for PA support in front of 50 to 100 people in a portable way. The Model II is the newer version with a wider, more even"sweep" from the speaker (about 180 degrees). We have combined this with a simple system made up of existing equipment and a new Mackie 802 mixer. We have 2 Shure wireless handheld mic systems (Beta 87's), a Shure wireless guitar mic which we connect to a conputer through the monitor jack to play audio from DVD's or Cd's, and two Shure wireless systems using Shure 184 lavalier mics. The handheld mics work great. The guitar setup works great (but it, of course, does not get affected by the signal from the Bose, since it's really a "closed" hookup. The problem is with the lavaliers. We have significant ringing (which in fact is distortion) which gets worse the more we try to increase signal. We have tried hooking up a Behringer Distortion Destroyer Pro, which will cut the offending frequencies but still does not seem to get rid of the problem and affects the quality of the voice, given its filters. After a discussion with Shure's Tech Support (who was great), the conclusion was that the lavalier mics, even though they have a cardiod pattern, were being affected by the Bose's output because of the disparity of signal to noise. Infact when we put the lavalier closer and in a more direct line with the mouth (4 inches) the signal to noise ratio was far better so that the distortion went away probably because the signal did not have to be boosted as high. So, we have ordered a Shure PG30TQG headset mic, which will put the mic within a couple of inches of the mouth and, hopefully, fix the problem. speakers will have to wear a headset instead of a tie tack but it seems to be the only way to fix it. I know I could place the Bose farther in front of the presenter but then there a issues of sightlines, etc. I think the 180 degree sweep of the Bose makes the whole thing tough than standard speakers that are more one-directional and therefore can be aimed away from the tie tack mic. And, we have already found that the feedback issue changes, depending on the venue but it is still there. Hopefully, the headset mics will fix the problem. If not, I'm not sure what a good "inexpensive" solution will be. Any suggestions?

Hi, Ebo!

Thanks for your descriptive first post on this L1 forum!

The 'tie-tac' mics are really not good for live amplification. Period. They really (I think) were created initially for the broadcast environment, where one is most concerned with visual aesthetics and there are no particular issues with audio 'feedback'. That (the broadcasting industry usage) is also why many headset/ear mics tend to "default" to being omni-directional ... whereas for live amplification, a non-omni pickup pattern is preferable.

We have gone to headsets also. The speaker typically uses a Countryman E6 (those real small mics on the flexible wire) here is a link to more discussion in this forum about those mics. One of the musicians (me!) has a Crown CM311-A (adapted for wireless).

It took a while for the speakers (preachers) to get used to the Countryman ... some of them don't like ANY mic ... but after a bit of usage they rather like not worrying about being heard (and recorded!) from where they stand, or how they turn their head, or if they wander around...

An additional thought, Ebo:

With any mic, I strive real hard to get it put through a Bose Preset. With the Model I, that means I separate the "music/instrument" inputs from the mic inputs (via panning or use of AUX outputs) and take two lines out to the Model I ... the signal with the mics into Channel 1 with a mic preset, and the other signal into Channel 3 (flat).

With the Model II, I use a T1 (ToneMatch mixer), which has an even wider variety of Presets (ToneMatch EQ), zEQ, and other effects. That also has the benefit of having a real good parametric filter (which can be used as a 'notch' filter).