Quote from Oldghm:

"How many and what size do you use?"

We've been having great luck with the LENRD bass traps from Auralex. They come in standard sizes: Qty. Per Box: 8 (16 lin. ft.). Or, you can get the MegaLENRD traps which are twice the width and twice the length of a normal LENRD, if your budget allows. Those soak up waves below 50hz....so they claim. My band just went in on a box of the normals. Even just one, or two traps in the corner where say....(your bass player's rig is sitting and making the entire length of the wall sound like car-sub audio)..... will make a big difference. If you play bigger places and have more wall to cover....you may want to buy two boxes. One works for us, though.

Also, we all bought two Gramma pads per guy for slipping under our gear. The pads and the traps really clean up the sound of a room and make what low end you DO have even more defined and punchy. It makes monitoring easer, as well.

Oldghm:

"Does room size matter?"

It matters very much so in terms of what nodes the room will produce. Doesn't matter for the pads. They will soak up any standing waves that collect along walls and in corners. Which is perfect because that's what people interpret as the problem areas in a room... from a listener, performer and mix perspective.

Oldghm:

"And "throwing" bass traps along the corners is specific?"

Yes. You are attacking and absorbing the exact frequencies (those that become standing waves due to corners and walls) that are giving you problems. Standing waves are different for every room, but the traps will soak up those exact problem waves since...in corners and along walls is where they like to collect because of room limitations. The pads are for the floor...of course. But, even they help keep the waves from traveling up into the walls and producing unwanted resonances.

I hardly ever EQ anything (if at all) with the foam because the sticks sound great. It's not tone balance that's off...it's merely rooms that get in the way of good sound. Providing you are sending the stick a well balanced sounding signal, of course.

Oldghm:

"Not sure I understand this. Could you elaborate?"

Sure. I'll try to make sense with the short version in order to avoid writing a book. Most EQ's used in audio today are known as "minimum phase" filters. The phase response of an EQ is dependent upon it's frequency response. In other words, changes in phase response are introduced as you change the frequency resonse...(i.e. use the EQ).

Phasing problems sound like mid-range peaks. The more mid-range a person hears....the more he/she tries to EQ to re-balance the sound. It's self perpetuating. Eventually, you can EQ until the signal just sounds weird.

A little EQ here and there is no problem at all. The phasing issues are not really audible with just slight EQ. Many rooms, unfortunately require a ton of help to sound balanced. Very often, the amount of EQ that one needs in order to correct a room's problems is fairly drastic.

Also, EQ's require a skilled enough user who can "zero" in on the problem frequencies. And, of course, any frequencies that you "cut" upsets the tonal balance and makes other frequencies sound as if you boosted them in relation.

So, MY method is to cure a room's ills as naturally as I can. Sorry for the lame explanation, but if you don't understand phase response and phasing problems....just google it. There's plenty of info out there.

Oldghm:

"Good idea!!"

Yeah, my gear looks like brand new because of the pads. lol

Hi DHurley,

With one box, 16 lin. ft., it would seem you are treating just the stage, not the whole room, much like someone with a home studio would treat the mix area.

This would not neccessarily mean that there were not still existing problems somewhere else in the room. Correct?

The research I have done tells me it is very cost prohibitive to properly "fix" my bad basement of approx 600 sq. ft. Although the bass traps I was looking at were a bit more expensive than the Auralex foam you are talking about. Maybe I'll try the same approach and "throw" some Auralex in the corners just in the immediate rehearsal area.

I don't think I have ever experienced the mid range phasing issues you speak of, and I have been notorious for making huge midrange cuts, though I prefer to be selective when semi-para EQ is available. It has not been an issue since I started using the L1 system.

O..

Yeah, the L1's are very good sounding PA. Rarely do I use any EQ because they are well balanced. I tend to "dial" up my tones (guitar, vocal) using flat studio headphones so that I know what I'm getting. The bose sticks are pretty accurate because I really don't have to tweak anything.

You are correct....treating a room is not cheap. Although I'm glad the Auralex stuff seems to be a bit cheaper than what you were looking at originally.

You are also correct in saying that treating the immediate area doesn't mean that there aren't problems elsewhere. We (as a band) always take a walk around the entire room and note the "hot spots". Sometimes it involves re-positioning the subs, but ultimately the setup has to be comfortable for the performers.

We use enough LENRD's (the Gramma pads help a lot, too) to make our performing and monitoring area nice and clean sounding. Sometimes, the Gramma pads are all we need.... which means we can use the LENRD's elsewhere. Anything we have left over goes into the hot spots of the room. You don't need to treat the whole room, just the problem areas.

We don't play huge places, so many times....a box is enough for us to make a room sound decent. However, someone else may want to invest in more. Actually, we're probably going to buy more in the future in case we ever get into a room that's really bad. Plus, treating a room is pretty quick and easy after you've played it a few times and get to know it. We play the same places several times a year, so we have our setup down.

We're actually in the process of talking one of the club owners into buying some LENRD bass traps to keep in his bar. This particular club built a hollow wooden stage for the bands and then put it in a corner. So, you can imagine what that sounds like. The foam and the pads are a "must have" for places like that. EQ doesn't help those types of situations a whole lot because it's just a band-aid at that point. You're not solving room node issues....you're just altering the tone balance of your instrument. Now, individual instruments are thin sounding, but your mix as a whole still has too much resonance and "boom".

Even if you do manage to tame the room nodes a bit via EQ....you've now cut enough out of your instrument that you start to loose the wonderful "fat" and balanced quality of the bose stick. I love the way the sticks sound outside....when there's not a room to get in the way. So, MY method is to remove as much as the room as possible, without altering the tone balance of the stick. A bit of EQ (if I do use it) is just a detail thing at that point. That's what works best for me, anyway. Having said all that....the bose sticks are still better sounding in a room than anything else due to their non-peaky tone balance.

Para EQ definitely helps (especially one with an adjustable Q) because you can practically surgically remove the troublesome frequencies without altering the others around it. This is not so with slide band. Most of the really difficult problems in a room lie in the bass area. Room nodes are hard to deal with. Sure, I'll cut out a slight bit of mid-range on the controller of my stick if a low ceiling is making my vocals sound a little "ringy." However, room nodes are usually bad enough that slight cuts....don't cut it. Pardon the pun.

We've had pretty good luck with the Auralex stuff, though. As I said before, I'll never play another gig without them. I hate sounding like an advertisement, but the pads and foam help THAT much.

Hi DHurley,

Sorry if I missed it, but how are you using your L1's? One per player? Like traditional PA?

I'm curious about how? and why? you would use headphones to "dial" up your tones.

I understand that you say the phones and the L1 have about the same response, but without a conventional mixer how would you sample the signal at the same place in the path?

I am the first to say, "do whatever works for you", but would still like to understand the logic of this step.

O..

Just looking for a reply from DHurley.

O..