First let me apologise to ST and all the others for going over all this stuff again and again, as I can understand that they have way better things to do then re-itterate threads over and over, but I am a hands on kind of guy, and the theory stuff confuses me sometimes,all the links back to previous threads is great but I kind of feel I am the only Bass player out there having these issues so it is a litte frustrating for me when I am at a gig and half way through the first set things just don't sound right, to me it REALLY affects my enjoyment for the gig- As we have now bought a 2nd L1 and 2x B1's the sound is truly amazing BUT my Bass sound just isn't happening for me as a player.
I am not a newbie and have been playing and touring live for over 25 years so I am really aware of my sound.
I don't run through the mixer - only into channel 1 on the L1 through my B2 effects unit. I have tried running into the presets only on the L1 but, maybe its the preamp in the Marcus Miller 5, but I find I need to boost the tops to get a decent cut through the mix.
My only problem onstage is the lack of definition in the bottom end of the Bass and this was pointed out to me by many friends of mine( who are "open minded" musicians and NOT anti-Bose - Mackie rules kind of players.
The fact that my "B" string drops out volume wise live and I am having to seriously crank my volume ( past red clipping stage on the remote) worries me - keeping in mind the ouput on my channel from the L1 is set at around 4:00 and this is not evem showing any red light clipping at all is concerning me.
I have tried running without the Zoom B2 but again the bottom end just doesn't have any serious presence to me at all and as a player I need to "feel" this onstage.
I am constantly pushing this system around Sydney for you guys as it is not marketed here at all, and only a few stores - Kirby Productions etc, really know anything about it and are doing an awesomejob trying hard to get it out there for "Live" players, but I get questions from other Bass players all the time about how awesome the system is but ".. Dude, you need to get a quad combo or something to play through cause I don't think the system works for a 5 string....."
Reading all the other posts here from other Bassists I realise that there is something wrong with something I am doing perhaps in my setup or....? I almost feel the need to buy another Bass rig with a crossover and run another cabinet for the bottom end and crossover the top end into the L1 as I feel this is what it needs.
The material we play is all modern R&B - 50 Cent, Beyonce, Justin Timberlake you get the gist- so the bottom end punch and clarity of the Bass really needs to cut but as I said I feel like I am running through a horn and mid box with no sub, if you know what I mean..
If anyone can help with this i will come and paint your house, walk your dog, buy you a years supply of winning lottery tickets - whatever you want......
I don't want to buy another Bass rig but i need to feel for comfortable with my sound onstage so I am at a loss- HELP!!!!
Am I really the only Bass Player out there with these issues - I guess that makes me kind of special..

Hi Slaine01,

quote:

Ran Bass and Bass vocals into channel 1 of the 2nd L1 with 2 x B1's (number 2).

I suppose I should have asked how you were doing this. Sorry..

quote:

I don't want to buy another Bass rig but i need to feel for comfortable with my sound onstage so I am at a loss- HELP!!!!
Am I really the only Bass Player out there with these issues - I guess that makes me kind of special

I'm convinced you're special, but not alone. Almost all the bass players here have gone through the process you are going through right now, including me.

quote:

If anyone can help with this i will come and paint your house

You're on!

Dan

Hi Slain01,

quote:

First let me apologise to ST and all the others for going over all this stuff again and again, as I can understand that they have way better things to do then re-itterate threads over and over,

No apologies necessary here. We are conversing thousands of miles and several time zones apart about music - in a largely silent environment. It is a miracle that it works at all.

Had a really great discussion with Andrew Douglas about this issue on his private messaging contact and I will try and get a Packlite(just finally released here in Australia this week through my friend Brian from Kirby Productions)and see if this will solve my issue.
My other option is to use my one of my back up combos - http://www.behringer.com/BXL3000A/index.cfm?lang=ENG and use this as stage monitor to give me more tonal "feel" on stage.
I AM SO GLAD you said that most other Bassists out there have been through this as I was feeling like the only whinger on the entire forum....
How would I set up the B1's - would I have all "6" B1's together or have the 2 x B1's for the non Bass system next to its own L1 and the other 4 x B1's(with Packlite for Bass) next to my L1.
Or should I stack all 6 together for cancelling of any phase issues?
I hope Andrew doesn't mind me posting part of his responce to me here but it was such a revelation yo me that it is bound to help other players out there too...

Slaine01 -
As we are now running two L1's, with 2 x B1's for each system, I was hoping not to have to have anything else in my L1 except for my Bass and Vocals but by running a line from the other L1, which has the main vocal, drummers vocal, IPOD and top end of the kick, (the bottom end of the kick goes to a mackie Sub as the drummer likes the punch), into my L1 as well - into Channel 3 of mine - the sound was more "stereo" and sounded better.
Should I run my Bass through both L1's as well? As we have so much coming out of the L1's frequency wise (due to the nature of the midi tracks) my Bass seems to get swamped - considering the kick as well.
What would be the best way to set this system up?
We run the Main (female) vocal, drummers vocal, IPOD, and kick through a Mackie desk then out to Channel 1 of the first L1 and then take the line out of Channel 1 to my L1(into Channel 3).
You maybe right about the Packlite and the extra 2 x B1's but until I can get the system to try I won't know.
I maybe able to borrow a Packlite etc from one our local distributers here with a bit of luck - so fingers crossed.
I would hate to buy one and find that it wasn't what I needed (considering I am the only one in the band who has outlaid for both systems already) and Bose Australia probably wouldn't have a return policy.

Andrew -
I think your bass is getting swamped because you're running out of headroom. You're asking your system to do way more than it was designed to do:

Three vocals
Bass
iPOD
Kick drum

In particular, that kick drum is going to suck the life out of your signal because it's going to monopolize the output of your B1s.

You may have done this, but try running the kick only through that Mackie sub and not through the L1s.

If this were my band, I'd send the drummer and lead vocals to one PAS, along with one channel of the iPod and maybe the top end of the kick. Put your vocal and bass, and the other channel of the iPod into your system.

The general idea is to minimize the amount of information you're running out of any given system.

Remember that the L1 "throws" really well...you don't need to run absolutely everything through every possible avenue to get enough volume out into the room. Tight, focused sound is much better than a LOT OF VOLUME that's all mashed together.

- This makes a lot of sense to me and I will endeavour to set the system up today and try this out.

Hi Slaine01,

Glad you and Andrew got talking about this.

quote:

How would I set up the B1's - would I have all "6" B1's together or have the 2 x B1's for the non Bass system next to its own L1 and the other 4 x B1's(with Packlite for Bass) next to my L1.
Or should I stack all 6 together for cancelling of any phase issues?

For safety reasons - the maximum recommended for stacking is four B1s.

Since you will have all the Bass (Guitar) in a stack of four B1s (stacked or two by two) and the other non-Bass in the other two you shouldn't have phase cancellation issues.

Those problems tend to show up when you have a single source applified out of multiple Systems.

Slaine;

I'm just catching up with this thread now. I think I mentioned this in our PM exchange, but in case i didn't, from what you describe I'm quite sure that rethinking your EQ is going to really help. (I do still believe that your fundamental problem is lack of headroom caused by trying to do too much with your system, though.)

Read ST's first post up at the top of the thread, specifically the words from Hilmar quoted therein about what's really going on at low frequencies. The important frequencies aren't down that low. What you're really hearing as music sits up above that 50-60 hz region.

I bet if you looked at how I've got my rig EQ'd you'd be in for a real surprise. And it sounds just great.

What I've got is deep, clear, sparkly, authoritative, tight and punchy. What I do NOT have is boomy, muddy sound.

I got there simply by NOT turning up the bass, but rather the EQ above that. Say from a couple of hundred hertz to a couple of thousand hertz...all are boosted to one degree or another.

I've got a lot of control...L1 EQ, four-band EQ on my bass, plus both the amp model controls and the built-in semiparametric EQ in the BassPODxt...there's no specific method to how I set each control, I just tweaked until I was happy without trying to second-guess what I thought the EQ "should" be doing.

The basic idea is that the bass is not boosted. I also play with the highs until the harshness and zing goes away.

Now, what you get might not please your ear soloed. But that's not what's important...it's how it sits in the mix that counts.

Midrange, not bass, is what punches through the mix.

Try a simple experiment. Turn down all your EQ except for the low bass, and crank that up. It'll sound awful of course. But listen to it...is what you hear "punchy?" I'd wager not. It'll probably sound like a boomy, messy, awful bucket of sludge. Turn down the bass to zero gain (flat) and boost the low mids and mids. Still sounds lousy, of course, but it'll have a lot more presence and punch.

There's also the delicate issue of your instrument. What you play has a big effect on your tone and presence in the mix. I used to have a hotrodded Carvin with an Aguilar preamp and Bartolinis in it, but the minute I plugged in a Bongo it was game over...this thing cuts through the mix like nothing else. I'm assuming that you're attached to your instrument, though.

O.K. Now I am really confused.
Even after posting this thread due to my "perceived" sound issues.- we just got a call from our agent to say that the venue from last week had cancelled the booked band for this week and decided to rehire us for the gig due to "... the awesome sound you guys pulled last week, even the bar staff could talk over the band and still feel the need to dance behind the bar...." They even mentioned a permanent residency!
I am now humbly crawling back into my box and and paying homage to the L1 gods...............It must be the Libran in me that causes me to be such a worry wart.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Slaine01,

Ooh...interesting...

You didn't mention how long you've been using the system (unless I didn't read closely enough...wouldn't be the first time).

Could it be that you're simply not used to hearing what the audience hears? The stage mix is often way too bassy with conventional PA (in my experience, anyway), so it would make sense that it seems to have lost some of the bass. If you've been playing for 20+ years, it's a safe bet that you've become accustomed to the typical muffled stage sound as "normal."

Despite the positive response, I'd still try separating the sources just to see what happens.

BTW, my band has started doing something a bit different at sound check where space and time permit. We always play the same song, chosen for its overall balance of vocal, instruments and drums.

We set up all three mics as far from the L1s as possible, and *facing them*. We then play through part of the song without anyone singing to get the drum and instrument levels right (we use a dB meter). Then we play it again, with the lead and one backup singer singing. I don't sing...I just close my eyes and listen for the mix.

What we accomplish in this way is that we get an idea of what the actual audience mix is like. Takes about five minutes...then we just pick up the mic stands, bring them back where they belong and we're good to go.

quote:

even the bar staff could talk over the band and still feel the need to dance behind the bar...."

We have received more than a few repeat bookings for that very same reason. It's refreshing when the bartender can actually hear the customer orders; spoken, not shouted. You'll be amazed at what you can get away with at lower levels with the L1, it's never kept our crowd off the dance floor.

Jeff
www.theunmentionables.com

Slaine

Adjusting to playing bass over our system is not easy, especially after you've played typical bass amps all your life. You'll be hearing your instrument more like it sounds in the studio, and so will everyone else. Here are some observations and recommendations:

1. Definitely having kick and bass in the same rig will give you problems. Kick will suck the life out of the note you are playing at the same time. I know this from first-hand experience. The best thing to do is amplify the kick separately. It needs a whole lot of bass volume.

2. Very interesting you have found out about "less bass". I know that all the power in bass tone is in the lower midrange/upper bass and even high end. I learned this from working in the studio, where bass definition is often improved in the mix by emphasizing the upper harmonics of tone. Of course deep bass is there too, but on solo, bass often sounds like a guitar. In the mix, it sounds right. I learned this also from working with Ron Carter and amplifying his (beautiful) upright (David Gage pickups) with our system. He basically turned most of the bass off and turned the mids and highs up. Sounded perfect in the ensemble mix.

3. You might benefit from taking more time to sort through the presets in your ps1 for bass. Possibly even some of the direct electric guitar presets could work.

Thanks for your messages. Let us know how you get on with all this.

quote:

Originally posted by holliwil:
You'll be amazed at what you can get away with at lower levels with the L1, it's never kept our crowd off the dance floor.

Jeff
www.theunmentionables.com

I've found they stay longer and get a LOT closer ... sometimes too close. I had this drunk guy bumping into my mic stand and when he nearly knocked my front teeth out I decided to give him a nice shove with my foot so that he'd get the hint. He didn't, but his semi-sober girlfriend did and she moved him back to the middle of the dance floor. No teeth were harmed in this incedent.

Steve

Steve,
That one sounds like it nearly made the grade for the following thread submitted by Cliff yesterday:

http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6806048934/m/...631054763#9631054763