[moved from another thread]

*Dividing Up The Pay*.

I have most always been the owner of the band PA gear, as well as the van, paying for gas, repairs, and performing most of the set up duties. I have also been the booking agent, rehearsal scheduler, and practice space provider. These things I do not mind doing...it's what I love. We have always split the pay equally. I justified it most of the time by acknowledging that the others are more artistic, or professional than I, or have a more important job being the *front man*, and in so, leveling the playing field.

Lately though, I have begun to re-think things a little and find it diffucult to justify equal pay for persons in the band who don't contribute anything outside of what comes naturally to them on stage, in performance. Especially when what happens on stage could, with a little personal woodshedding, be improved upon.

Is even-split the best way?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Drumr,

Moved Reply:

Pete....you deserve a bigger cut than the others. I tried the "nice guy" approach with the even splits and it ain't fair at all.

Let it be known to the freeloaders that change is on the horizon, maybe they'll come around to contributing more but I doubt it....and keep one eye open for replacements...

Wish you were out here on the right coast...I'd unload my guy in a NY minute!

JD

Moved Reply:

No JD, I don't deserve jack...I just wonder what's fair. How do you do it?

Moved Reply:

In addition to being the only singer, I book all gigs, own 2 Bose systems, maintain website, pay for repairs when other knuckleheads break things and generally do everything to keep the band running.

So everyone gets a c-note to start and I take an extra 50 from each gig. After all, I have over 6k invested in equipment they play thru without having dished out a dime.

I also pocket any and all tips that occasionally come our way from the employer (last week was a rare 200 extra)

They're happy with 100 (standard in this neck of the woods for club work)

So, yes, in lieu of all the extra that you do, you are entitled to extra k-ching. Without it, there is no band!

p.s. there are occasions when the split will be equal or my extra cut will be less if it is for the good of the band or if one of the others books the gig, which happens about as often as a hundred year flood...

JD

Moved Reply:

I also know of a guy who gets 750 per gig (doesn't work all that often) and gives his 4 partners a c-note each and pockets 350. His band, his equipment, his booking.

JD

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JD1,

Moved Reply:

quote:

Switching gears...*Dividing Up The Pay*.

Pete, I usually, try to get an extra $25.00 in there for equipment and accessory costs. JD's $50 actually makes more sense, given the $3000 - $5000 outlay for sound gear and Booking/Managing fees.

I think you need to start by saying, "Here's how much this gig pays per musician", not how much this gig pays. I haven't tried stating it as (for example) $100 per person and $25-50 for equipment/booking fees. That seems to make sense though.

I don't use a booking agent, so I know what present booking fees run. I am sure they vary by area and band size.

Like you, I have to book, manage, cover rehearsals, provide all the sound gear.
Let's not forget being our own Roadie, with transport, setup, tear down, repairs and (thank goodness for quick L1 setup, but still) the extra time to make all this come together.

Moved Reply:

Hey Pete - If you are part time or full time it does not matter. You are running a business. How you would run it if it was some other business? Talk to your fellow band mates and see what they think. Ask them how much money they think they should get. When I have to add an extra person I always pay above the average. I don't know if you remember Kenny Rodgers band The First Edtion. They were all paid a salary only Kenny and the guitarist were partners. The other members made extra money by what they did, move equipment etc. When gas is 4+ dollars it is only fair that someone should be compensated for that. An agent would take 10 - 20% booking fee. What if you had to rent the equipment? We have a girl that I use when we do a trio. She plays keyboard and sings. The more Lee does at a gig the more I give her. I can always give her between 200 & 300 dollars a night. Shes happy I am happy. It is a business. Run it that way and all will be fine. If not then delegate to the others. They will realize you are worth it. Roy

Hi Drumr....

I used to be like you (many years ago) and handle the equal split justification with similar thoughts, ie. this guy is a better musician etc. etc.

Then I finally decided whoooa...I'm furnishing the sound equipment, getting the bookings, doing the promoting doing all the setup, etc. etc. (the same as you)

From that time on I've always taken 15% off the top and then the balance is an equal split. Anyone I've ever hired had this explained to them up front and I never had a question or a problem with this arrangement.

If you consider what you would have to pay for a booking agent alone, the 15% is extremely reasonable. Dosen't really cover what you do but it is some extra compensation and if you are like me, you just want to play, so maybe you settle for just a little less.

If you are playing full time for a living, (I'm not) the arrangements might have to be a little bit different.

Not saying this is gospel, it's just what I have done to handle the even-split problem..

Have A Good One

Dewey

In the union days the leader got double. He was not the best musician maybe, but he did the work to get the job and get the job done. Its a service. We pay for services. The club/client pays you for your services. You pay the gas station/music store/bank loan/etc. for the services they offer. Why should it stop there. I know plenty of great, I mean great musicians who couldn't get a job on their own, if their life depended on it. They need the services of others.

As a former record label guy and a former band manager, I can tell you that more often than not it's money that divides the group. Nirvana was a 3-way split until someone told Kurt he deserved 50% since he wrote the lyrics. It almost broke up the band, but Dave and Kris gave in and wrote checks back to Kurt.

Dave, with Foo Fighters, wrote all the songs, played (nearly) every sound on the first record, and then put a band together and split it 4 ways so nobody in the band was better off, but also expects everybody to do their part.

When you're a big name act, it's songwriting royalites. When you're a bar band, it's all about gig and t-shirt money. You have to run that part like a business, and like any good business you should put it in writing and make it a contract. Incorporate the band. Once you do that, then people's roles are defined.

If your job is drums PLUS all the behind the scenes stuff before and after the show, then you should be compensated for that time/effort differential. It's just not smart to do 3 times the work as the rest of the group and they get the same money you do.

If they protest, teach them their new jobs within the band and hold them to it. This is where getting it in writing helps. Don't foist upon someone a gig they can't handle, be smart about it. If someone can't communicate thoroughly and isn't detail oriented, keep them away from booking and money.

If nothing else, if they don't want to do the work, then you get the money.

OR

Everyone takes an equal pay cut and you get a manager and a booking agent. You all pay someone else for the details and you all get paid the same in the band. GOOD managers and booking agents will increase your pay at gigs because it benefits them and you simultaneously.

The only other advice I have is that the key to bringing this kind of discussion up is cushioning it a bit. If you walk into rehearsal and go "gah!!!" about all of this, it's going to feel like a rebelion. If you ask for them to share some of the responsibilities and they decline, then you might say "you know, if you all depend upon me to create some income with this thing, then that kind of makes me booking agent and manager. I think that extra effort is worth compensation for my time. What do you think?"

Start there.

Or...it might end there too...hahahaha

Hey Pete
With the Kings we split everything evenly but then again the guys all chip in on everything so fair is fair.
With the other bands I work with I charge the going rate $150 per man. What they make for themselves is none of my concern.
There is one band who hires me that pays me more than they make themselves. Originally I felt guilty and gave them their money back but since then I don't ask what they are making, I just tell them what I charge per gig.
Rick.

quote:

Is even-split the best way?

Hi Pete!

It all depends, right? The Lodge Brothers play music for fun. It’s not a business for us, it’s our hobby. I’m pretty sure the other guys would agree with me on this one. So, we always split the money (what little we make) equally. Our situation is different from those that play and perform for a living, or substantial second income. That's more a business and you must have business skills in this world to survive, if you are at that level.

My story is a lot like yours though Pete. I, like you, have purchased the necessary equipment to amplify us when needed for a gig and I am the one to worry about how to setup all the equipment. The other guys used to bring their instruments, tune-up, and play (while seated, I might add…), while I took care of everything else like audio levels, mixing, feedback and our overall sound, all the while playing my bass (while standing up)!

In all fairness, when I joined the guys, they had a Peavy portable All-in-One PA system on wheels and some knock-off SM58 mics. I felt it was a shade better than no amplification at all, but then again, I knew nothing (zero, nada, zilch!) about PA systems, microphones, etc. at the time. That was about eight years ago. Neither of the other two guys was especially fond of amplification and saw it only as a necessary ‘evil’ they had to put up with in some venues. So, I offered to take on the responsibility of our “sound system” because I wanted to learn about such things. They gladly obliged.

Fast-forward to today. After many dollars spent on equipment and many opportunities (read...gigs) to learn about “sound systems”, I have gained some valuable knowledge about the use of microphones, equalizers, amplifiers, speakers, etc. I considered it like an educational class in ‘sound reinforcement’ with on-the-job training. And, like any class you would take at a community college or state university, it costs you something to learn the knowledge. That’s the way it is…

However, in the last year or so, I felt somewhat like you. Why was I buying all this equipment and doing all this work and only getting equal pay? I was expected to transport everything, set it up, make sure it worked, operate it during our gigs, pack it up when finished and have it ready for the next gig. I thought about asking the guys for more money per gig. Then I thought, “Am I in this for the money, or do I just want to have fun?” Well, I decided it was NOT the money, but the aspect of having fun while playing music and having a good time that I was more interested in doing. So, I asked the guys for some help in setup/teardown. Guess what. They said “Sure man, it’s not fair for you to have to do everything!” They just really had not had to worry about it, because I was always doing everything for them.

Now when we arrive at a gig, the guys help with everything in setup. When we finish, they help teardown and pack up everything, plus haul it to the van! I'm now thinking about asking them to be in charge of their own mics, stands, and cables for transporting. That will even further “lighten” my load and really make things flow smoothly. Plus, it'll give them some ownership of the equipment.

My point (after writing this novel above) is,,,, I think you have to ask yourself if the additional money will satisfy you? Is the investment you have made to provide sound reinforcement and the extra work you do for your group something you would feel better about if you took some more money? Or, are you just thinking…what if the guys “bought-in” a little more with the chores of playing a gig? From my hobby perspective, that was really all I wanted.

I've spent a fair share of my gig money on sound equipment! I don't mind, however, because I have learned a lot about audio and sound reproduction in the process. But I have to tell you, since I began playing in a band in high school, playing music has been the one and only “hobby” I have ever had that even comes close to paying for itself! All my other hobbies cost me money!

quote:

Originally posted by Drumr:
Is even-split the best way?

It's easy for me to give advice. I'm a solo act and don't have to fool with this stuff but I have read of one way that I thought sounded good. Add a "extra" band member and the person who is providing the PA, driving, booking, promoting, etc gets that extra share. So if you have a 4 piece band, divide the money 5 ways. Each band member gets their cut and then that person who is doing all the work gets a second cut.

Matt

Previous bands Jimmy was in had a somewhat similar arrangement to Matt - everyone in the band was responsible for their own instruments, 'transport' was counted as a band member and 'PA' was counted as another band member.

Now we don't have that problem with jiva - keeping it 'in the family' makes things so much easier.

Hey John - I think you touched on a good point. Sometimes it's not the money but it is the support we get from others. There will always be musicians who when a job is over they are gone till the next job, and there are those who will stick around and help. In the day when I was a drummer, I had a massive drumset. Everybody else would be done way ahead of me and then sit and whatch me tear down. That was fine until they started complaining about how long it was taking. Of course no one would help. It wasn't until the lead singer started complaing that it came to a battle. I reminded him that all he did was unplug his mic and he was done. Thats life. Roy

Oh baby! "Popped the cork on the volcano". Is getting paid as important as the music itself? Might be. Just look at the fervor of all these responses.

Much more on this coming...

(I did love the money-feed-in accessory on the T1 for the gig)

Duos I've had in the past we split the night's pay and tips down the middle.
Everyone drove themselves to the gig, provided their personal instruments, monitors, mic/stand/cables, and helped with the set up tear down of the PA.

I owned the main rig and booked the gigs. (and lead the band)

I now do everything from solo acoustic to duo with different sidemen (depending on the venue) to a base trio and on up to a 6 piece.

Everything over the trio pays a set price. I provide the PA, do the booking and hiring, and tell each side man that the gig pays $XXX.XX.

I book easy shows. Light load ins. Rarely more than a 2-3 hr event. And many are early enough in the day where they can all still play their night gigs. (or it pays well enough that they can stay home that night)

So for me it goes each way.

Drumr,

I think it's important to keep the roles defined. By that I mean that if you are a group, all on equal levels of governance and risk associated with the gigs, than that defines your roles with respect to profit sharing too.

On the other hand if you are the "boss" and for now I don't mean that in terms of playing in the band but the business, then you should decide what to pay people and give them the choice to say yes or no.

The big problem is the perception that equal pay means equal governance. If equal governance and responsibility are not part of what everyone gets in the band than I don't think they should get equal pay either. It muddies the waters.

When I say governance I mean who gets to decide what the band does? If you get asked to play a gig that you do not wish to take for whatever reason, does the rest of the band have a right to make you play it. Let's say it's an event that you find objectionable or you think that the association with the client would be bad for your reputation. Can you say no?

IMO, when everyone gets paid equally, you cannot. Equal pay makes everyone think they are an equal partner and that can be bad if that is not the case.

I've had band members quit on me with no notice because I decided not to do something they wanted the band to do. And I was in the same situation as you. I created the band, book all the gigs, pay for all the necessary gear. I drive everyone to the gigs, write, record, produce and mix all of the music and pay for everything when traveling. If the gig can cover the expenses it does but if it cannot then I do.

My error in that case was that I gave everyone an equal split of the profits and of the live shows. Doing that, which I thought was a nice gesture, made everyone else believe that they were equal partners. It got so bad that one guy quit on stage during a gig because we asked him to shorten a bass solo, a request for which we had a very valid reason. He finished the show but made it clear to 300+ fans that he had quit while playing.

Then when I tried to explain to him that I had the right to ask him to shorten the solo because I assumed all the financial risk of the band, he shot right back at me and said that his time practicing was equal to my financial investment in terms of giving him the right to govern the band. What really happened is that he thought that since he got an equal share, he was an equal partner and managed to reason that to himself by saying he was working hard for the band by practicing.

Speaking of biggest problems, one of my favorite quotations is "Man's biggest problem is that he has a reason for everything he does." Which I think was from Socrates but I am not sure.

The other problem with an equal split as I see it is the one of liability. If a fan chooses to sue the band because they tripped over a mic cable, then they are coming after me not the drummer. The fact is the amount of extra money I take in a band I run could easily be wiped out with one bad stroke of luck. And if there was a bad stroke, I could not really count on people in my band to help out financially because they, like I, could not really afford to do so. So if I am assuming the risk, then I need to keep more in reserve than the other guys.

Of course every band is different and I would never want to ruin a good musical situation over a few or even many dollars. So it may be that in your case equal is good, but just make sure that the load and the governance is split equally too.

Steve

I'm mostly solo these days but occasionally play in a bluegrass trio. I supply the sound, get the booking, set up practice at my place, meet with clients, etc. I split the pay equally. Last month, we played a gig for $1,200 and a two-hundred dollar tip. This was at a wedding (great gig, bride stomping to Foggy Mountain Breakdown and all...) and when I went to write the other two their checks, one guy broke it equally into three parts, specifying the cents as well. Gotta admit, chafed me a bit and I didn't like it. But in my case, I don't play in a band often enough to ponder it much. Being on my own can be scary, but I always show up for practice, play what I want and pocket all the cash.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: captbanjo,

--Most of the time,at least locally,full-time musicians/singers,are competing with people who have worked,or are presently working at a "regular" job,with benefits,pension plans,IRAs,401Ks.Maybe they even have a spouse that has a great job/hospitalization plan!These are usually the people who can afford to talk about "Art",and "Is getting paid as important as
the music itself".....But that's the way it is....