I started this topic in another topic called xxx and was asked to move it to a separate topic.

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Last weekend I had the great (and somewhat unexpected -- see below) pleasure of attending a fabulous concert by the band Los Lobos.

Considered "musicians' musicians" the "just another band from East LA" has been together for decades. They play a wonderful blend of Latin American (Spanish-language) styles together with kickin' American rock, rhythm and blues, and blues -- all reflecting their Chicano upbringings in East LA.

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On Saturday night, they played the recently and beautifully restored Mahaiwe (pronounced ma-HOW) Theater in Great Barrington MA.

This jewel opened in 1905 and the community pulled together to do an incredible restoration.

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On the car ride there with my beloved brother and my 10-year old daughter, we had a lengthy discussion about how sound levels often (always actually) marred the performances of this great band.

We had kept going to shows on and off over the years because we love the band and their music so much.

But we always had to come prepared with earplugs and we always felt we couldn't hear all the voices and instruments well. An audience recording would reveal that the sound quality in terms of clarity was significantly worse than the clarity of 78 records in the 1930s.

As we walked into this beautiful venue, our trepidation could not have been helped by the fact that there was a large concert-style line array system flown over the proscenium. We thought "uh oh". I was naturally especially concerned about my 10-year old. I so wanted her to enjoy this her second "rock concert" (the first was the Steve Miller Band last summer) to be an evening to remember. I was prepared with extra hearing protection for her, figuring I'd have to start stuffing her ears as soon as the music started.

That is not what happened.

Read on...

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The first surprise was no warm up act. LL was to do two sets, a total bonus for those of us that love and follow the band.

The second, much bigger surprise, is that as the band started, the sound level was completely comfortable.

Skeptically, the thought it couldn't last. Maybe the sound engineer was distracted by some technical problem and when solved would realize the sound "needed" to be turned up to the usual volume?

No.

The first song finished and the audience was wildly involved. You could see the look on the faces of some in the band. Why are these people so, well, nice?

The second song commenced, still at a comfortable level. One thing you could notice is that the drums were hardly amplified at all. You could only hear a little bit of kick and snare in the mains.

Again, the audience was totally thrilled and let the band know. Now the band is wondering "what's going on?"

Of course, they can't hear what it sounds like in the house so I'm figuring they have no idea that there's something unusual going on with the sound levels. This reminds me of a test we did when we were developing the technology that became known as the L1 system. We had the band that was to become known as The Linemen setup with a conventional system at a large performing arts center in Boston. We did an experiment where we asked the band while they played to signal if they heard us turn the mains off. They could not.

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Back to Great Barrington and Los Lobos.

The audience reaction to the first few songs is so strong that Cesar starts wondering out loud between songs if the audience wants to, well, rock? You can hear somewhat sheepishly him asking his bandmates and the audience about this.

The audience says, yes, we want to rock. Cesar can't believe it and says "OK, you asked for it."

So they launch.

And still, the sound level remains comfortable in the audience.

Now, I'm thinking, what is going on here?

My theory is that the venue is controlling the sound level. I'm thinking there's something contractual about this. I look around at the clientele and I see a mostly middle aged, prosperous looking crowd. There's a smattering of children including some others roughly the age of my 10 year old.

The joint is jumping. The band is having a ball. Everybody is clapping and stomping and singing to the beat. It was totally fabulous. Interestingly, the sound quality was only fair: it was really tough to pick up the vocals and the keyboards and sax playing was often completely lost. Cesar's guitar was often inaudible. But the sound level was so comfortable (I'm guessing an average of 95 dB-SPL with occasional peaks to 100) that you could enjoy the music -- even -- gasp -- ROCK MUSIC.

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After the show, exhilarated, we had a chance to talk to the great Louie Perez (he's in the middle of the photo above). We thanked him for an incredible evening of music. He signed the T-Shirt I bought for my now-in-love-with-Los-Lobos daughter, and we talked for a few minutes about the show.

I complimented him on a particularly interesting, long, elliptical electric guitar solo he gave.

I remarked to him how great the audience was. He was a little surprised and said they struggle with performing arts center audiences. He noted the difficulties with "subscribers".

And then it all fell into place for me.

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The band thinks that the reason they sometimes don't do well in performing arts centers has something to do with "the subscribers" maybe not digging their unique, sometimes raw brand of rock and rockin' blues.

But that's not it. The "subscibers" are you and me. Boomers. We LOVE to rock. We MADE rock.

What we don't like is to be jackhammered into our seats by our favorite bands.

Los Lobos has a totally different future playing in these gorgeous venues -- and venues like these (and others -- see more below) have a great future of sold out performances if they can keep the levels down and improve the sound quality.

We boomers have both the greatest love for the music (amplified music) and the greatest disposable income to spend on it. If we're given a combination of great acts in a great venue with great sound, we will go.

And go and go and go.

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Last week there was a fascinating article in the New York Times about the explosion in professionally managed community farms.

I've enclosed it here and encourage you to read it.

It is about communities coming together to get something of much higher quality (fruit and vegetables) and a cost similar to the super market.

Do super market tomatoes remind you of anything??? (Hint: think "corporate" rock concerts).

So I wonder if a similar model might work for live music.

I will now end my remarks with the hopes of hearing from some of you.

With best regards,

Ken

p.s. I plan to call the Mahaiwe to find out if the sound level is in fact kept contractually at a comfortable level.

Cutting_Out_the_Middlemen,_Shoppers_Buy_Slices_of_Farms_-_NYTimes.com.pdf (102 KB, 127 downloads)

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Hey, is there some kind of award that goes out to the person with the greatest number of posts?

JD

Moved Reply:

Hi Ken,

I enjoyed reading this.

Interesting observation about the inability to discern individual instruments or voices. This could be a bad mix but I'm more inclined to attribute it to the experience L1 owners have reported when placing too many similar voices (human or instrument) into one L1. What are your thoughts? Was the Line Array a single hang?

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Los Lobos is such a fun band. I dearly love the old theaters. I often buy music DVDs that have been taped in the old restored classic theaters. There seem to be several in California. Glad you enjoyed your concert.

Respect
Andy

Moved Reply:

I have a few thoughts on this. First of all, I love Los Lobos too - since first hearing their "Will The Wolf Survive" album back in the 80's it has been high on my desert island list. I've been doing a cover of the song "Don't Worry Baby" for years with various bands.

Anyway, back to the theater. I had a very similar experience a couple of years ago. I went to see Robben Ford and Johnny A (guitar heaven) with a very good friend of mine, who also happens to be the person that introduced me to the L1 nearly 5 years ago. The concert was at the Regent Theatre in Arlington, MA. We showed up - much like you Ken - with adequate hearing protection fully expecting the typical onslaught of "concert" sound. To our surprise and relief, the earplugs never came out of our pockets. The sound was at a VERY comfortable level, and unlike the Los Lobos experience - it was very, very good quality. I'm not an acoustics expert, so I don't know if it was superb room acoustics, or an extraordinary engineer, or a combination of the two - but it was one of the best sounding shows I've experienced.

Coincidentally, the first thing that struck me was I thought the drums were not mic'd. The sound was so pure and true to the acoustic sound, instead of that over exaggerated chest pounding thump that sounds nothing like real drums. Of course, the drums WERE running through the system, but they were so tastefully mixed that it was difficult to tell.

I guess between this experience and Ken's story, I would like to (optimistically) believe exactly what Ken was saying - that maybe certain venues are beginning to realize that we (the boomer generation) DO want to go out to enjoy live music and DO have the disposable income to do it, but we have also matured and refined our aural sensibilities to the point where we DON'T want the ear splitting artificial sound. We just want it to sound good at a comfortable volume. We can only hope that these theaters who have figured that out are just the beginning of a much broader change in thinking throughout the entire entertainment industry.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: gittar-jonz,

Moved Reply:

Hi Ken!
This is not the response to your general inquiry about a new "boomer model" for concerts, but I'm posting here in the belief that maybe others might be interested in the answers to these questions.

1. How did you manage getting a photo of Los Lobos in concert? Most venues I attend (with national acts) do not allow cameras or recording devices inside the concert venue. And, even if you manage to sneak one in, and you're caught with it later, you're generally ejected from the concert!

2. That's such a GREAT photo of the band, that I'm curious about your camera settings. Would you mind sharing the exposure details like; F-stop, shutter speed, ISO, etc. either here, or in a PM?

Sounds like it was a great concert. I'm glad you were able to attend it with your 10 year-old daughter. You can probably never imagine how many "dividends" that might pay in years to come, but trust me, it will!

John

Moved Reply:

quote:

I guess between this experience and Ken's story, I would like to (optimistically) believe exactly what Ken was saying - that maybe certain venues are beginning to realize that we (the boomer generation) DO want to go out to enjoy live music and DO have the disposable income to do it, but we have also matured and refined our aural sensibilities to the point where we DON'T want the ear splitting artificial sound. We just want it to sound good at a comfortable volume. We can only hope that these theaters who have figured that out are just the beginning of a much broader change in thinking throughout the entire entertainment industry.

My wife, 2 sons and I went to a Steely Dan concert July 4 2008 at Casino Rama the sound was excellent and the volume was perfect. Maybe the revolution has already started and we just have to start promoting these venues and boycotting the others.

Rick

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Starvin,

Moved Reply:

The Mahaiwe is a community effort. There were many hundreds of donors in the program we received on Saturday.

The community pulled together to rebuild this great resource and now they are "the subscribers".

Hmm...

quote:

Originally posted by Ken-at-Bose:
I started this topic in another topic called xxx and was asked to move it to a separate topic.

lurking.............

quote:

The Mahaiwe is a community effort. There were many hundreds of donors in the program we received on Saturday.

The community pulled together to rebuild this great resource and now they are "the subscribers".

Hmm...

Casino Rama is a “for profit only” organization that has figured it out. If you look at the line up
You will see the demographics of the crowd they are catering to. I am sure the volume issue was well researched and rightfully so. I’m just saying that we need to support both of these new kinds of economic models for live music in order to keep them alive.
Rick

Ken,

I too am interested about the perceived perplexity Los Lobos was having with the reaction to their opening numbers, and whether the venue had contractually-imposed restrictions on sound level.

I'm assuming Los Lobos (and their sound crew) is so used to their typical pounding live mix, that they have yet figured how to adjust everything accordingly to a lower-dB blend...ergo, the inability to hear the sax, etc.

I would suggest they consult and/or hire some sound men with experience running Bluegrass festivals/venues/events. Those guys seem very adept at providing clear, cutting tone for all the wired and un-wired instruments innate to the genre, (banjo solos, fiddle solos, mandolin solos, guitar solos, harmonica solos, etc.) plus all the vocals, (including intricate and often subtle harmonies) yet manage to do it all at tolerable, all-age-group levels.

I would venture to say Bluegrass sound men are the un-sung, unknown wizards of live music, and should be sought out and employed for other genre acts when they are seeking tolerable clarity.

Mind you, I am not a Bluegrass musician or sound man - so this is not a veiled promotion. Just a personal observation.

Dennis

I saw Los Lobos at the House of Blues in Anaheim, CA last winter and the volume levels were obnoxiously high.

It was very painful when I removed my earplugs to check the mix in the house. The mix was ok with earplugs in. I wonder if the sound engineers wear earplugs to mix and this results in a good plugged mix??? :-)

Needless to say the ridiculous SPL levels made the evening thoroughly unenjoyable. I wonder if touring musicians are aware of the way their audiences are assaulted and choose not to attend shows because of this.