I guess the other thing I thought of about our discussions was that we felt that the serious tone players would more likely be Model I or Model II players -- in other words, players that would not necessarily choose the Compact from the family.

On this issue, I think we may have misjudged a little when it comes to our existing customer base, who have said in many cases already that they are customers for BOTH the Model I/II and the Compact.

Dan, you make a good point about the fact that a ToneMatch port has no controls. However, if I sold you a new, say, Audi, and one of the most attractive things about it was the simplicity -- just drive, you don't need to be a car guy -- and then you saw this computer jack on the dashboard that said "AudiPlex", might you have just a pang of anxiety that maybe you were missing something?

Now, that reaction could be good if it led to finding out how to get more out of your car. But if it led you to another device -- the Audi A1 performance optimization module -- and a whole bunch of technical complexity that you didn't recognize -- well then you might feel that you didn't buy the right car after all. Or that maybe you weren't getting as much out of it as you could but couldn't really tell what to do about that.

My point is that the presence of the ToneMatch port would be welcomed by those that know and love the T1 but could be the wrong thing for others.

I make these points not in the spirit of "isn't this obvious?" But more to add detail to what made this a hard decision and how things fell on different sides of the line (but almost always close to it.)

Ken

Ken,

You just made the Compact sound TOO good.

Seriously I think a lot of folks are enamored with small & wonderful things. It adds that same "Wow!" factor that the Wave radio has.

Tom

Very clear *Audi* analogy Ken.

Thanks for the background on this, it is as I supposed it was, knowing you guys.
I figured your decision had to be based on the price point to compete with current market products for the Compact's target buyer.
You did very well.

Later you can make a Compact Pro with CAT5 and extended bass other improvements revisions...no problem.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: DrumrPete,

I dunno, Ken. How many people driving automatics never use any forward gears other than D, let alone the sport/economy switch on fancier transmissions? If it's not a problem, then I don't think the average overwhelmed-by-technology person feels any anxiety about missing out on the solution.

I really like the direction the L1 Model II took: one analog input, and everything else via the ToneMatch port. Simple and elegant.

I have a few flashlights (stop laughing, Tom) with simple but non-obvious ways of changing light levels. If a normal person needs a flashlight, I hand them one, they push the button and there's light. If a geek needs a light, I give 'em a five second demo of the user interface, and they exclaim "oh, how cool!" Light and delight, both.

[EDIT: Pretty obscure analogy I came up with there. I was trying to say something about the sort of simple and elegant interface that hides a deceptive amount of power just below the surface, and fits the user rather than forcing the user to fit the tool.]

The Compact by itself: simple and elegant. Paired with an analog connection to the T1: not so much.

As I said to you privately, I really love the way the RME Fireface 800 [audio interface] has a removable plate where one can mount the timecode option [expensive, and needed by relatively few users]. Hopefully you'll find room in the budget to include at least an optional T1 connector in future products.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alan Steinberger,

I have thought so much about this. Tried to imagine the process the Bose guys went through after someone said, "let's build a small lightweight, addition to the L1 family".

The short line array seems to be an evolution of something Chris had already done with the 502.

To keep weight down they would probably not go to 40hz. It takes power to make, and mass to hold those low frequencies in place.

One trip carry in. Make it just tall enough. Extensions too long make it hard to get through doors, load, etc, etc, etc.

During this process I thought of at least as many reasons to leave out the T1 port, maybe more, than I can think of to put it in.

To my ears the voicing of the system is different. Flat, it is more to the warm, bassy side than the other L1 products. If this is in fact true, and my experiments, and two gigs so far tell me it is, then the Compact when used with the T1 will not produce the same tone response when using the scene you might have created with a Model I or II. Bass players, drummers, porchboard users, and others who take advantage of those bottom 25 hz that are missing in the Compact, would be disapointed when their carefully crafted tones didn't show up in the Compact.

If you let your mind wander a bit it's easy to see the "cost" of a T1 port is more than the dollars it takes to put it in the box, something that didn't register with me at first.

I am glad that Ken and his crew are listening to the response of the existing customer base, they know by now that small, light, easy, is appreciated by everybody, we just want a bit more control and flexibility with the product, and maybe those bottom hz's too.

Last nights gig was another amazing performance by the Compact, it was totally impressive.

The sound man disappeared after sound check, there was some misunderstanding about what time the gig started, so at start time the only one ready was me. So instead of waiting to do a break for the guys I opened the show.

The Band members moved around the nearly 1600 sq. feet of hardwood floors and brick walls. to get a listen to the Magic Box. The performance area was about 600 sq feet that was partially heavy draped from the dinning area. I got nothing but smiles and thumbs up, and a few head shakes of disbelief from the band members, four of whom I have known since the seventies.

When the sound man returned, I pulled the mic from the holder, unplugged the guitar, laid the mic and cord on the floor and exited with mic stand and guitar. The Compact was about 8 or 9 feet behind me, against the wall, with a row of guitar amps between me and it.

At break time I set back up, and as I began to play I realized that the guitar channel was switched to line, as I had been messing with the T1 the last time I played before the gig. I finished the first song and asked a band member to switch it for me, much improved sound even if not what I really like. After 4 songs one of the guitar players joined me for a tune then the 6 piece band came up and we did one more together.

The band pretty much smothered my guitar, but my vocal came through loud and clear even with all that other noise .

This time I left the mic and stand on the stage. I hadn't done a max gain before feedback test, so the mic channel was set at about 11:00, with a 9:00 cut of the bass and the highs flat. The lead singer and another singing band member switched back and forth from their house mics and the Compact throughout the set.

These guys started loud and got louder. At the end of the set when both the tele and the strat where screaming and everybody else was keeping up, the vocals were still cutting through from the Compact, not hardly as loud and full as the house but only me and the sound man really knew the difference.

O..

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Oldghm,

quote:

Originally posted by Ken-at-Bose:
I make these points not in the spirit of "isn't this obvious?" But more to add detail to what made this a hard decision and how things fell on different sides of the line (but almost always close to it.)

Ken

I would rather see hard decisions made on the side that gives people room to expand, than on the side that leads to more of the same.

I am more than a little surprised, that you are surprised, that the veterans like this product, especially when pre release hype promises the same experience as being in front of our current L1 with similar volume capability.

I don't understand how you could develope a product (like the Compact) that some say was influenced by this forum, and you not be acutely aware that the basic promise of portability and big sound capable would be widely recieved with enthusiasm from the many current users.

Just so you understand, if you release another system tommorrow, that is half the size of the Compact, with the same output, I will buy it.

Don't put any knobs on it, just a T1 port.

O..

Wow.
Excellent posts.
Oldghm, your last two posts here, were amazing ti read. I LOVE reading posts about gigs! Now, I have never fully tested the Classic, but...isn't it also a bit differently voiced than the MII? Or can you use EXACTLY the same T1 settings for it? To me, it is natural to change some EQ settings when moving to a new system, regardless of gear. So changing some EQ for the Compact would not be a big deal to me.

The next few weeks are going to be VERY interesting... the other singer in my band just bought a compact. I have a MII/1 B1 and a T1.

He got it yesterday, so I have not heard his system yet, but the next few gigs sure will be filled with comparisons and adjustments

I also came up with 2 band names, free to use for anyone: The Compact Cruisers, and The T1 Twisters. Hmmm maybe T1 Tweakers...


Again, Oldghm, your posts humbled me, your input meant a lot to me. Thank you.

I too, was disheartened by the lack of a ToneMatch port. That was actually what made me buy the MII instead, because the payment plans did not allow me to finance a Compact and a T1 in the same deal. I need the extra inputs/fx for the open mic I host.

To BOSE: Keep it up, guys! You're doing great!

Seems to me that if Bose came out with a next generation Compact with a T1 port,then someone else one would want a Bass lineout for a packlite for extra Bass.At that point why not just use a larger L1.At what point does the Compact lose it's intended design?Just a thought I'm having - J.D.

quote:

[posted by Oldghm]
then the 6 piece band came up...(and) pretty much smothered my guitar, but my vocal came through loud and clear even with all that other noise.

That's great news O, I'm trying out the Compact with my trio tonight in a smallish beer garden.
It will handle my vocal, the kick (real drums) will go into the bassist's 4-B1 system next to me.

I was hoping my vocal would keep up with the other L1s in this space.
Last night I could barely sleep wondering if it was risky to try without bringing another L1 for backup.
(I did throw an extra MII in the van just in case).
I've only had the Compact for one day, but reading your post gives me confidence that it can work.

Last night we set the Compact up in the cabin with my favorite *old country* singer/guitarist.
We pushed the Compact to it's limits, and tried variations of inputting, with and without the T1.

On the Compact alone, we had Burr's guitar in the phono jack, ch 2, and the Porchboard in one of the RCA inputs. Surprisingly the PB sounded just as good thru the RCA as it did into the 1/4" jack.
The two instruments, sharing the input sounded clean and clear, as if they had their own individual channels.
Burr absolutely loved the Compact, it weighs half of what his amp alone does...not to mention his little PA.
I could see the wheels turning in his head.

As you said earlier O, the PB has a *thud*, not a *boom* with the Compact.
I agree with that, and was expecting to be totally let down by that fact.
My disappointment was not as strong as I'd predicted, not when hearing how everything else sounded.

My wife and Burr both thought the PB sounded plenty good enough for the jams and open mics we do.
Julie did say the porchboard sounded *bad* by itself, but once the guitar was playing, it was pleasing.
I have to agree with her there, the PB is just a supporting pulse, a little goes a long way.

Trying the T1 with the Compact was a blast!
We tinkered with vocal and guitar effects, chorus, tremolo, delays, had a great time.
The porchboard did as you said, get some help from the T1, with General Kick preset and a little zEQ.

I can see that out live, I will want to use the T1 just so I can have the controls at my fingertips.
But tonight, for experience and simplicity's sake, I'll go it basic with just the Compact.

Bottom line for me, this thing is a keeper.
It will lighten up my load in a huge way for many of our small gigs.

P

quote:

a next generation Compact with a T1 port,then someone else one would want a Bass lineout for a packlite for extra Bass.

And the problem with that is?

Given the ability to sell both those very useful accessories or expansions, I think that is a great idea. The more expandability the better. There is nothing worse, than owning the stripped down model, that has no expandability. Kind of like the loss leader or basic model, because you couldn't afford the good one and they won't let you build up to it.

Especially when many of us already own these items already. I truly feel that the L1C should not have been compromised for a lousy $100.00 (or whatever) difference to include these items, at least the T1 port.

Hi Roxville,

I am very fortunate to own a Classic, Model II and now a Compact. If I could only have one, I would chose the Model II with T1.

Some hear more difference than others, between the Classic / Model I and the Model II. To me the sound is not that much different when performing directly in front of either. Those off to the side will get a different sound because the Model II has the articulated speaker arrangement which provides for a wider more even dispersion of the highs.

The Compact is a member of the same family, but it speaks with a slightly different voice, not bad, just different. I expect to find many uses for the Compact, the simplicity is addictive.

Hi J.D.,

I would love to see a system that combines the best of the Model II with the convenience of the Compact. I think it is readily apparent that many current users like both systems and for good reasons, but wouldn't it be nice to have all those capabilities in one system, with components that could mix and match to suit the needs of a particular venue. If it could be purchased in stages that would be even better. One could start with a Compact "type" system and "grow" it component by component.

In giving up the "old" way, what I missed most was my ability to use my power amps with any number of different speakers. I could use JBL 2-way with subs, or EV 3-way, or my Bose 402IIs with or without MB4. Don't get me wrong I don't want to go back, but I like to be able to scale my system to my needs.

I might also add that my original post that started this thread was written November 20, 2007.

My Mother always told me it didn't hurt to want.

Drumr,

You're going to love the Compact. I think you will find many places to slip it into your various setups.

O..

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Oldghm,

Oldghm, what I was after, was if the amount of T1 tweaking would be the same between the Classic, MII and the Compact or more on the T1 when you hook it up to the Compact than to the Classic after having it set on the MII.
LOL, ok...I am getting confused with my own words here!

I tested the Compact briefly at GC here in Charleston, SC...and yes... it sounded very good...and just a little different.
But I expect I will hear more from it now that my bands other singer has one! Ahhh, the endless possibilities...

Hi Roxville,

For me there is very little difference between the Classic/Model I and the Model II. While I might make a change, it really would't be neccessary.

The scenes I have on my T1 that were created with the Model II "must" be altered to satisfy my hear with the Compact. You are correct in thinking it's not a big deal, we tweak all the time. The T1 is so cool because you can save those settings and pretty much walk in, turn on , and play. I haven't created scenes for the Compact yet, but I will, at that time I might have a visual reference for what I have done.

I too, look forward to an opportunity to play alongside with someone with a full size L1, perhaps switch back and forth. I think unless a group is playing very loud they will work fine together.

O..

Hehe, this may be a good thing... he (the other singer) is usually the loudest!
So now I finally have one up on him!

I second J.D.'s coments on how the compact is a great unit just the way is. I would like to add that every thing I've run into the L1c has sounded beautiful, no matter if it was strait in or through the T1. Thank You Bose for making another head turning product! You guys rock!

Interesting discussion...

Ken wrote:

quote:

"However, if I sold you a new, say, Audi, and one of the most attractive things about it was the simplicity -- just drive, you don't need to be a car guy -- and then you saw this computer jack on the dashboard that said "AudiPlex", might you have just a pang of anxiety that maybe you were missing something?"

The L1 Compact has some connections for an iPod doesn't it? I don't have an iPod. I can tell you I will not lose sleep wondering if I should go out and buy an iPod just so I can get the best use out of my L1 Compact...and not be missing something!

One of my pet peeves about buying anything from a company that offers several models (or levels) of basically the same thing - with the only thing(s) separating them being the amount of additional features being offered, is that if you buy in at the low end (perhaps because you can't afford, or don't think you need some of those other features) when you then decide you do want some or all of those other features, you then have to buy the next model up, etc. You can't simply buy the 'plug-in thingy' to give your entry-level gizmo the feature that you want, but couldn't afford (or didn't know if you needed) at the time, etc.

In my case, I would likely have pangs of anxiety when I purchase the low end model of something, all the while knowing that, to get the feature I want that exists in the higher-end model, that doesn't exist in the lower-end model, I will then have to buy the higher end model as well, just to get that feature!

When I purchased my L1 Classic I also purchased a Mackie Onyx mixer (the T1 was unavailable at the time and I needed additional inputs). As it happened my Mackie came with a free firewire communications module (as part of a sales incentive at that time). I wanted one of those firewire modules as it turned out (and was one of the reasons I settled on this particular mixer) but it cost almost as much as the mixer! But knowing it was available as a plug-in module allowed me to purchase the mixer knowing I could purchase the firewire card later on without having to buy another mixer, etc.

The only evidence I saw, on my mixer, that indicated there was 'something else' that could 'plug-in' to the mixer, was a cover with a label on it. I didn't have pangs wondering what else I was missing...I was reassured that I could add the option I wanted later on. And had there been some kind of plug on the mixer for the firewire option...well there were any number of plugs and connections on the mixer that I had no intention of using. None of them kept me awake at night wondering if I wasn't getting the most out of my mixer, etc.

As it turned out the sales incentive gave me the firewire option at point of sale. The important thing to me, though, is that I would have known that all I would have had to do was to purchase the firewire card when I had the funds...plug it in...and I'd be in business. I wouldn't have had to go out and buy another mixer to get that firewire module.

I thought this was a great way to sell the product and to offer the firewire card as a separate plug-in option to folks who can then buy that option only if they need it, etc.

I'm sold on plug-in options. Cars, for example, are built that way all the time. I'd like to see more products offered in such a manner. An L1 Compact user who doesn't want/need a Tonematch port doesn't buy the optional module.

There will never be a solution to this kind of problem because (I believe) it's simply not possible to please all the people all of the time. But I do believe that the concept of 'plug-in options' comes as close to a solution as any.

Stu

edit: spelling.

Hi All

I’ve been thinking about this since the introduction of the Models one and two and the discontinuation of the Classic.

As a drummer the Classic was without a doubt the most versatile L1. You have the extra presets over the model II and you have the option of using your PS1 as a packlite that would power six B1s. I feel that although the line array in the Model II and the Compact are superior to the Classic everything else has been a trade off.

The next logical step would have all the benefits of the L1 classic. The T1 port, the portability and the line array of the L1 model II offered in two models one full size and one compact.

This would be a drummers dream come true.

I re-read Oldghm's initial post for this thread, before I decided to post here. It sort of follows the theme about "next generation PS", but if it belongs in another basket somewhere, please Forum-Admin, put it there.

Although I haven't heard, or even seen, the L1 Compact yet, I have some ideas for the product-enhancement think tank, regarding the L1 Compact "Pro" version, should it every see daylight. I've wanted a wireless remote ever since I first used my Classic. I would love the idea of a wireless R1 which would "sync" with its appropriate PS easily. OK, it might be expensive, so make a wired version for the next L1 Compact, using a standardized ToneMatch port. And while I'm thinking of it, what if you split the T1 ToneMatch Audio Engine in half and just provided two channels in a new design? Now, I have a completely new design for the L1 Compact. As Oldghm said, just give me a box without any knobs, but a T1 port. That's simple and elegant. It could work with a simple, supplied R1 device, or for those "advanced users", the mini-T1 ToneMatch Audio Engine, or its big brother!

Of course, I'm sure others have already thought of these options and weighted in on either side of the line at Bose. But, I just had to get them out there, because the ideas came to me the other night and have been lingering in my mind.

Hi All,

In my post above (May 22,2009) I spoke about a six piece band; well, two of the guys purchased Compacts this past week. They both play solo and duo shows more than they work as a full band, so the Compacts are not meant to take the place of a full PA system.

One used his as an acoustic guitar amp with a trio gig on Saturday, and was somewhat disappointed that his guitar didn't cut through. I experienced the same thing when I sat in with the band. I think the guitar preset is too full / wide of a spectrum to find its own place in a band setting. He is thinking of buying the T1 to have more control over the guitar eq. His instrument is a Taylor GS with expression system. He was very pleased with the results of an outside, solo gig on Sunday.

The other player used his in a solo setting, playing a Taylor T5. I have not spoken with him directly but was told he was pleased with his first gig on Saturday night.

Both players said that they got compliments on their sound, something that many of us have gotten used to, but was brand new for these guys.

I am now waiting for an opportunity to jam with these guys, each of us with a Compact, should be fun.

O..