Some of us in the Live Music Technology Group recently went to see and hear the Steve Miller Band play at the Tweeter Center in Boston, a summer shed holding about 18,000 people.

Steve has purchased a number of Cylindrical Radiator speakers over the past 18 months and has written us to tell us of his experiences with them. (With his permission, we've posted these HERE).

We did not realize until we arrived at the Tweeter Center that he was using the two most recently puchased double bass systems as part of his large-concert setup. Naturally we were delighted.

What we were told is that he uses one for his vocal and acoustic guitar monitor, and the other for the keyboardist Joseph Wooten's keyboards and vocal sound.

We did receive some high compliments from Steve and Joseph, but do not feel right reprinting those remarks without their permission, which we have not asked for.

Here's a picture looking back at the audience.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Ken-at-Bose,

Midway through the show, Steve introduced Bob Weir of the Grateful Dead (Weir's band Ratdog warmed up). We're certain that the sound did not go unnoticed by Weir. In the photo, Miller is the very brightly lit player in the center and Weir is just right of him in the photo. Look hard and you'll see one double bass system between Miller and Weir (this is for Steve's vocals and acoustic guitar) and one behind and the right of Joseph Wooten (in the photo).

One of the most beautiful parts of this concert for me was going back to the open-air seats, where thousands and thousands of college-age kids were belting out the lyrics to this great American artist's songbook. It was so gratifying to see a new generation enjoying this great music so thoroughly.

I'd be happy to answer any questions I can about this.

Ken Jacob
Chief Engineer

Hi Ken, great stage photo. It must be very gratifying to see the PAS being used in such a professional, state of the art set up. Very impressive. I do have a question. If Steve Miller was using the PAS for vocal monitor, what is the purpose of the Martin Audio monitors in the "Texas headphone" setup at what appears to be the lead vocal mic position?
Congrats,
Robert L

Ho Ho HO! Robert, you are TOO GOOD!

Did you get a lot of walks when you played baseball?

In all seriousness, Mr. Steve is using the floor wedges primarily to hear his bandmates' vocals and what the heck, why not throw in a little Steve vocals too?

Robert, thank you for your kind words. We -at-Bosers were happy and proud with what we saw.

Hi Ken,
Is that a blazer I see Bobby wearing? I've heard of a Dead Head sticker on a Cadillac, but that's going a little too far!

I guess I can pull out my old boarding-school attire now and retire the patchouli oil. Woo-hoo! My bandmates will be so relieved.

Thanks for sharing that picture. I saw Steve open for the GD in Chicago many years ago. One of the best times I've had.

Later,
Plez
Whiskeythrill.com

It appears Steve's B1's are on his power stand. Is that ok? (Obviously ok with HIM, but what do you -at-Bose folks think?)

Plez,

Garcia has some hilarious quotes about first hangin with Weir -- stuff like having to talk Weir's mom into letting him come out to play. Garcia was the scruffy one I guess, and Weir more prim. Amazing to think of these differences, when you realize that both went on to develop a new kind of music, astronomically popular, yet never mainstream, and wonderfully positive.

Guy,

Are you asking if the PS1 can take the weight of two B1's? If so, the answer is absolutely yes.

quote:

Originally posted by Guy Hufstetler:
It appears Steve's B1's are on his power stand. Is that ok? (Obviously ok with HIM, but what do you -at-Bose folks think?)

Yes, I saw that too. It also seems that the B1 is sitting on the PS1 on the PAS intro screen. I have one situation where it would be a better setup if I sat the B1 on the PS1.

Any pluses/minuses from those out there in the know??

Yeah, I guess that was my question, too. I've always heard that subwoofers work best if you set them on an active wooden floor and all that stuff. I was wondering if the sound was affected at all by setting the B1 right on the PS1.

Engineers-at-Bose (and elsewhere), please chime in and correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, a bass speaker on the floor is 'coupled' to the floor, effectively adding mass to the speaker cabinet. The more massive the floor, the lower the frequency of what will be helped (reinforced, made louder) by the floor. So, the floor is but one of many variables from venue to venue...

If the stage layout is such that putting the B1 on the PS1 frees up precious floor space, do it and decide if you like the way it sounds. In most cases, I doubt that the difference between floor and PS1 would be a huge one. You might get occasionally audible mechanical vibrations (bzzzt-bzzzt on certain bass notes) between the housings of the B1 and PS1. 'Might even be musical (this coming from a guy who likes to harmonize with household appliances)...

quote:

'Might even be musical (this coming from a guy who likes to harmonize with household appliances)...

Your not the only one. The cool thing is that I'm also married to someone that harmonizes with household appliances, so we can actually make full chords!

Hi Ken. I'm not sure of where this should be posted but I trust you will "stick it where it belongs " including sending it to other folks at Bose that may have an interest in this.

Need For Mounting-Arrangements To Direct The L1 Sound-Column


As addressed in other contributions to various forums (perhaps it should have its own forum), there is a need for alternative mounting-arrangements for the L1 speaker. Being limited to directing the L1 sound-column that extends only from the floor-level of the performance-area to six feet above it often is not appropriate for the performance-venues in which one finds oneself.

One needs to be able to adjust the height of the L1; its orientation/rotation around a horizontal axis through its side; and its orientation/rotation around a horizontal axis through it from front to back. This would support adjustment of direction of the L1 sound-column including the adjustment of an amount of vertical-dispersion if desired.

It is suggested that Bose (or some entrepreneurial individual – perhaps like me but I’d rather spend my time playing base and singing) develops an optional mounting-system for the L1 that can be attached to the top of a common telescoping speaker-stand to address the adjustment of vertical height.

The mounting-system would include a wiring-harness-arrangement for connecting the L1 to the base unit to free them from one-another. It would consist of an L1-end-cap for the L1 that would be mechanically and electrically like the L1 socket in the base unit and an L1-socket-adapter to fit into the base unit’s L1 socket that would be mechanically and electrically like the L1. The L1-end-cap and the L1-socket-adapter would have the appropriate connectors to accommodate appropriately interconnecting them with 6’ – 10’ Speakeron NL4-terminated cables.

The mounting-system would include an appropriate mechanical arrangement that would hold the L1 securely and accommodate the L1-end-cap. This mechanical arrangement would connect to the speaker-stand via a robust mechanical-arrangement that would accommodate rotating the L1 through 360 degrees around each of two, perpendicular, horizontal axis with the ability to secure it at fine angles of rotation. The adjusting-mechanism would include a fine-toothed arrangement or equivalent as opposed to simply relying on flat pressure-plates to secure angles of rotation.

The mounting-system would accommodate the mounting of retail rotating laser-levels at each end of the L1 so that one could visually observe the expected limits of long-axis dispersion of the L1 sound-column as it is projected into the venue.

So, when can we expect it to be available? Or does someone already have a solution to this problem?


Thanks & regards,
Lloyd Hansen

Yes I may have a solution for you my friend.
Bose have a loudspeaker model called MA12 from which the PAS system was evolved. (my assumption)
It could be the answer to your prayers, though not powered by the PS1.

quote:

So, when can we expect it to be available? Or does someone already have a solution to this problem?

Lloyd,

That's an interesting read for sure. I can tell you that I wouldn't "expect" it any time soon. The L1 was not designed to be mounted, it was designed to sit in the PS1.

Even seeing if the L1 would meet our very difficult testing for mounted/hung speakers would take months. Then the testing could begin.

As IanHB said, there is a "like" product offered from the Bose installed sound group called the MA12 that is designed to be installed/hung.

I do like the laser idea, but wouldn't you want it portable/removable? Has anyone ever taken a "pen laser" to a gig?

Thanks for sharing your ideas,
Steve

The following is a revision to clarify the meaning (hopefully) of the contribution that I entered yesterday on this subject.



Need For Mounting-Arrangements To Direct The L1 Sound-Cylinder


As addressed in other contributions to various forums (perhaps it should have its own forum), there is a need for alternative mounting-arrangements for the L1 speaker. Being limited to directing the L1 sound-cylinder that extends only from the floor-level of the performance-area to six feet above it often is not appropriate for the performance-venues in which one finds oneself.

One needs to be able to adjust the height of the L1; its orientation/rotation around a horizontal axis through its side; and its orientation/rotation around a horizontal axis through it from front to back. This would support adjustment of direction of the L1 sound-cylinder including the adjustment of an amount of vertical-dispersion if desired.

It is suggested that Bose (or some entrepreneurial individual – perhaps like me but I’d rather spend my time playing base and singing) develops an optional mounting-system for the L1 that can be attached to the top of a common telescoping speaker-stand to facilitate the adjustment of vertical height.

The mounting-system would include a wiring-harness-arrangement for connecting the L1 to the base unit to free them from one-another. It would consist of an L1-end-cap for the L1 that would be mechanically and electrically like the L1 socket in the base unit and an L1-socket-adapter to fit into the base unit’s L1 socket that would be mechanically and electrically like the L1. The L1-end-cap and the L1-socket-adapter would have the appropriate connectors to accommodate appropriately interconnecting them with 6’ – 10’ Speakeron NL4-terminated cables.

The mounting-system would include an appropriate mechanical arrangement that would hold the L1 securely and accommodate the L1-end-cap. This mechanical arrangement would connect to the speaker-stand via a robust mechanical-arrangement that would accommodate rotating the L1 about its centre through 360 degrees around each of two, perpendicular, horizontal axis with the ability to secure it at fine angles of rotation. The rotation adjusting-mechanism would include a fine-toothed arrangement or equivalent as opposed to simply relying on flat pressure-plates to secure angles of rotation.

The mounting-system would accommodate the mounting of retail rotating laser-levels at each end of the L1 so that one could visually observe the expected limits of long-axis dispersion of the L1 sound-cylinder as it is projected into the venue.

So, when can we expect it to be available? Or does someone already have a solution to this problem?


Thanks & regards,
Lloyd Hansen

Thanks Steve and IanHB.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve-at-Bose:
...Even seeing if the L1 would meet our very difficult testing for mounted/hung speakers would take months. Then the testing could begin.

As IanHB said, there is a "like" product offered from the Bose installed sound group called the MA12 that is designed to be installed/hung.

I do like the laser idea, but wouldn't you want it portable/removable? Has anyone ever taken a "pen laser" to a gig?

Thanks for sharing your ideas,
Steve

It is comforting to know that Bose would approach this with the usual engineering rigor that naturally takes time.

Definately it must be portable - one would just require the transport of more ancilliary "stuff" for those venues that require it.

I thought the MA12s were only designed for permanent installations with no thought given to portability. I will have to look at them more closely to see if there are such adaptors that would make them portable and functional in this way.

The pen-lase would be a good first-approximation tool at a good price. Any laser-device would suffer from possible negative-reaction from patrons that may be in the venue at system-setup.

Thanks & regards,
Lloyd Hansen

quote:

Originally posted by Steve-at-Bose:
...As IanHB said, there is a "like" product offered from the Bose installed sound group called the MA12 that is designed to be installed/hung.
Steve

I have subsequently looked at the Panaray section of the Bose web-site and discovered the following about mounting- and portability-support for the MA12s:

There is a CB-MA12 coupler available to effectively make the MA12 into an MA24 which appears to be an equivalent to the L1.

There is a WB-MA12 wall-bracket that can provide 10 degrees pitch and yaw (but no roll).

There is a SS-10 speaker-stand and PS-MA12 stand adaptor for mounting the MA12 on the speaker-stand. It appears to offer no pitch nor roll.

Of course, advantages of the PAS include the convenient portability of the floor-stand amplifiers and the ability to use only the floor-stands and the L1s for most (hopefully) venus.

So it appears that it would be a steep climb for the MA12 and accessories to diminish the development-opportunity to improve the L1 mounting-flexibility but some of the proof-of-concept work may have been done by the MA12 engineers.


Thanks & regards,
Lloyd Hansen

Lloyd, I am hard pressed to understand why you would want to have the "ROLL" orientation in any mounting of either the PAS or the MA12.
Please enlighten me?
I could send you a photo of the MA24 on a stand as I have done it as an experiement. Not very stable and infact proberly downright dangerous in a performance situation.

quote:

Originally posted by IanHB:
Lloyd, I am hard pressed to understand why you would want to have the "ROLL" orientation in any mounting of either the PAS or the MA12.
Please enlighten me?
I could send you a photo of the MA24 on a stand as I have done it as an experiement. Not very stable and infact proberly downright dangerous in a performance situation.

Thanks for the reply IanHB. The reasons include at least the following:

1) The venue where the PAS must be set up has such a low ceiling that it cannot physically fit without some "roll". I have personnally observed such situations and folks in these forums have contributed pictures of their own experiences of such low ceilings together with some of their bizarre ways of getting around it (e.g. removing part of the ceiling such that the top part of the L1 "plays" in the space above the ceiling or producing the required "roll" by tipping the entire PAS over towards one side).

2) The venue may not be compatible with the 6' virtical sound-cylinder of the L1 (e.g. they may be seated in a sloped-floor auditorium or in bleachers). In this case a combination of "roll" and pitch may facilitate expanding the degree of vertical sound-dispersion to meet the need without necessarily building multiple stacks of 18' MA12s as illustrated in one of the forums.

The point is that the standard PAS configuration, although highly desireable for its simplicity, has no flexibility to ensure that the sound-cylinder of the L1 is at ear-level for many venu-situations (e.g. the stage-height of many gymnasiums would send the sound-cylinder of a standardly-configured PAS over the heads of everyone seated in the audience - this being an example that could be addressed by adjusting the pitch of the L1).

Regards,
Lloyd Hansen

quote:

The point is that the standard PAS configuration, although highly desireable for its simplicity, has no flexibility to ensure that the sound-cylinder of the L1 is at ear-level for many venu-situations (e.g. the stage-height of many gymnasiums would send the sound-cylinder of a standardly-configured PAS over the heads of everyone seated in the audience - this being an example that could be addressed by adjusting the pitch of the L1).

Lloyd,
Having been an active participant in this message board since the product was introduced I can say that there have been very few circumstances where this problem wasn't readily solved with a small hunk of wood (or rock) under the back of the PS1.

I understand where you're coming from but in practice, these type of circumstances are easy to fix with a simple, easy to setup solution, tip the L1 down just a bit.

I hope that helps,
Steve

PS Check this post out on a patented device to help with situations like the one you describe.