We (four piece rock cover band - three L1s, 2 T1s, eight B1s, 2 A1s - no guitar amps on stage, modelers only) are playing a show on 1/27 at a venue that has a house system that they insist each act use. They provide the sound guy. Their system is JBL SRX - with a couple of cabinets mounted in the overhead above the stage - and some SRX 700 subs sitting on the floor in front of the stage. The stage is probably 2 feet high. Looks like the PA is powered by at least three higher end Crown power amps. Have not seen the board - but the engineer tells me that he can creat 4 separate monitor mixes.

I went to this venue last night to seek out the sound guy and get his opinion on us playing without backline amps. Two of us have quality amps that we could use - but we are much more confident about the use of modelers for the cover band application.

When the band last night cranked up - we were seated about as far away from the stage as you can get in that place. All we heard was low end mush. There were 4 couples at our table - and they all turned to me and asked if the poor sound quality was due to the band or the PA. These are all folks who are regulars at our Bose powered shows - so they are used to a certain amount of clairity. I told them that I suspected that we were too far away for much of the high frequencies to make it that far - and that if they strolled closer to the stage - the quality would improve some. Several of them checked it out - and agreed that it sounded better up close.

The sound engineer that I spoke with was fine with us going direct with our modelers. He also happens to be an employee at the local GC (which claims to be the second largest seller of L1 systems in the country) so he is very familiar with Bose gear.

While the venue is adament that the acts have to use the house PA - I would still like to propose that we have our L1s on stage for our backline and monitors. I would like to propse this to the sound engineer - but would like to know what to expect from the mixing of the systems.

Any insight from real world experience - or even theoretical discussions will be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Hi John,

I think that you are correct in your view that your L1®s ARE your backline amps and stage monitors. I don't think it is something you have to propose. It's just the way it is.

So you manage your own stage mix and you can give the house whatever you choose to give them. That is - you can give them a mix from the T1®s and if necessary, if you have Model I's you can take lines-out from Channels 1 and 2. There's no way to get lines-out that include Model I (or Classic) Power Stand Channels 3/4. If you need to do that - you can use conventional DI boxes with a parallel path for the source.

So run as loud as you need to hear yourselves properly on stage and ... and if they want to give you a monitor mix, you can just have them turn it down. It will probably just mess up your stage mix if you run monitors and the L1®s.

What happens in the house is mandated by the house. (House rules).

Depending on your stage volume, you may have some overlapping sound and that might not sound great - but it'll will be up to front of house engineer to manage that - just as s/he would have to if you were using conventional guitar amps.


edit: spelling

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

quote:

Have not seen the board - but the engineer tells me that he can creat 4 separate monitor mixes.

How will the sound guy know how the monitor mixes sound from where he is?

quote:

we are much more confident about the use of modelers for the cover band application.

For this reason, I would use your typical L1/modeler setup as you would anywhere, and send your outs to the sound guy.

I'd guess the house's reason for insisting on their PA is to keep volume/quality in check.
They could use an education on that from you guys.

ST,

Thanks for responding. I would like to just give the sound guy lines out of each of our modelers, and my VoiceLive 2 (they all have dual stereo outputs). That way - if we make adjustments to the T1s during the show - it will not directly affect his FOH mix. We will probably have to give him the line out of the T1 for the drums.

quote:

Originally posted by ST:
some overlapping sound and that might not sound great

It is exactly this that I am concerned about. What kind of "not great" are we talking about?

Despite the adhearance to their system (that is obviously not well designed for the size of the venue - which I am guessing is a 350ish seater) - this place is one that we'd like to play regularly. They kind of avoided us for over a year - until we did a charity show there last month. At the charity gig - we were allowed to use the Bose -as there was no sound guy on hand that night. I was hoping that they would see the contrast - and make the determination that it was in everybody's best interest (band, venue, staff and patrons) to allow us to use the Bose - but alas they did not make the connection.

If we make a good connection with the sound guy - and help him to help himself, so to speak - it could be a win win situation.

I'd love to hear about what any of you have heard if you ever lined up this way.

Bose Engineers? Your input would be most welcome as well.

Hi John,

Check out this discussion with input from Ken-at-Bose.

Phase cancellation when going to FOH

and this one.

How do you talk venues out of their PA.

And this

Bose L1 systems and concert PA systems

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,

I have had this discussion with sound guy's and I ask them what is the difference between me playing my guitar through the Bose or playing my guitar through a guitar amp. They never have an answer and I play through the Bose.

Hi John,

quote:

Originally posted by SunDog:
ST,

Thanks for responding. I would like to just give the sound guy lines out of each of our modelers, and my VoiceLive 2 (they all have dual stereo outputs). That way - if we make adjustments to the T1s during the show - it will not directly affect his FOH mix. We will probably have to give him the line out of the T1 for the drums.
...

Your choice of course, but if you want to share your mix with the audience then give the house engineer line outs after the T1®s.

I posted a thread awhile ago in which one of my bands, also 4 piece rock covers, played a large outdoor gig. We only have 2 L1 systems with 2 T1's and 5 B1's (we only used 4 that day). We put all 4 vocals, my guitar (which I play through a modeler) and the other guitar players acoustic through the L1's (all through the T1's). From there we ran from the master out of each T1 into a single channel of the board to the FOH PA. For this size of outdoor venue I just don't think 2 Bose systems is enough. We put a couple of miss on the drums, direct out from the bass amp and mic'd the other guitar players amp directly into the FOH mixer. We did sound from the stage and the sound was great. Pretty much a set it and forget it kind of deal. We have done this show annually for at least 5 years and always did the traditional mic'ing everything, frontline monitors , backline amps with a sound man out front. This was the first time integrating the Bose and it was most fun we've had to date and the best sound.

If I was in your shoes, I would set up like I do at any other gig and give him two lines from the T1 masters and just tell him he's gonna have an easy night and that all he has to do is augment your sound. From there you can do one of two things, just have your stage volume be enough for the band to hear, OR, try to fill the room with the Bose and make a deal with the sound man that if he doesn't feel he needs to bring up the faders on the board to make it sound better to just leave them down (he could have an inaudible amount of level in the house system just to "qualify" what management wants.

My other band has recently gone to running everything through the L1's (still only two as I am the sole owner of these systems in either band). The other guitar player in this band though uses the same modeller as I do (POD HD500) and he recently got rid of his amp (Mesa Lonestar Special) and bought and L1 compact. For some gigs he uses his compact others he just plugs into a channel on one of my T1's. The drummer is now using his electronic kit (Roland TDK4) and the bass player started leaving his amp at home and using a channel on a T1. We play an indoor club that has a house system. We have always thought about augmenting our sound by running from the master outs of the T1's into the house system just for a little extra kick. The deal has been that if after the first set we feel like we need a little more we'll run the lines to the house. We've never done it. Mind you we've only done this gig twice since we switched to running everything through the Bose, but I think twice is enough now that we won't have the house system discussions anymore.

In fact another very cool side note (getting off topic about using the Bose as back lines in conjunction with house systems). In this venue they use an iPod into a couple of channels of the house system for between sets music. They like to pump it up pretty good to keep people dancing between sets. Since we didn't even power the house system up, we actually ran the iPod through the compact, and it cranked out the tunes beautifully. I really was quite surprised and impressed that the compact could do that in this venue. I figured I was gonna have to put it through one of the model 2's. Live and learn.

Bonjour John,

I recently did a solo performance as part of a multiple performer "talent show" without the L1 but used my T1 mix straight into the house board. The sound man did not object when I asked if he could just run it through without any EQ or effects. He also gave me the same signal back in my monitor.

The show was recorded on HD video and my sound was clearer than the other acoustic guitar / singer act.

Since you have two T1's for 4 musicians, you could use either two T1 mixes to the board or try with 8 T1 signals to the board and hope he does a good mix. Usually I find that the vocals tend to be submerged by the instruments in most mixes... But that could just be me being a bit biased

Joyeux Noël et Bonne Année!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JFd,

FWIW, after using L1's for many years in many different configurations, I would suggest using your normal setup, including L1's, whenever possible and let the sound guys augment "your sound" for the venue. Usually makes it easier for everyone that way.

quote:

Originally posted by getrythm:
FWIW, after using L1's for many years in many different configurations, I would suggest using your normal setup, including L1's, whenever possible and let the sound guys augment "your sound" for the venue. Usually makes it easier for everyone that way.

Just to be clear - not only do they insist upon us using their PA - but they specifically said "do not bring a PA."

Right, that's why you're bringing your back line..... you can't help it if your back line happens to also be a PA. That's why I suggest you set up your backline and work things out with the sound guy. It's called "pulling a fast one"

Sorry Sundog.....dementia you know....

What Litesnsirens said !!

Our band plays through amp modelers and an electric drum kit.

It's been said before but I'll just add another voice to the chorus. Just consider your Bose as your backline and tell the sound guy not to worry about monitors. There are all sorts of sonic weirdness that could happen for all the technical reasons pointed out, but in the end, it is the same sonic weirdness that has always been around with conventional backline/PA/monitor systems so it won't really be a big problem.

We've done quite a few shows using the house system and it never sounds as good as when we just use the Bose. We record every gig from a well placed recorder. Some places just don't think it is music unless it is loud and goes BOOM on the dance floor. Most places love the Bose approach after a few curious looks at the stage.

Report back and let us know how it went.

Update:

The gig is tomorrow night. I spoke with the sound guy last weekend and proposed using the Bose gear as backline. He thought about it for a moment and then realized that it could make his job a lot easier (no monitor mixing) - and promised to propose the idea to the venue managment.

To my surprise - he did follow up - but I don't think that he did a good job selling the idea to the manamgnet - as the request was denied. I got a note from the manager indicating that on weekends - bands have to use the house gear/sound man. That response made me suspect that the soundman didn't specify that we just wanted to have the Bose as back line.

Since this is our first paying gig at the venue - I decided to drop the issue and let the sound engineer do his thing.

I am going to go direct from my modeler and my vocal processor. The bass player is going to have his amp on stage and give a direct line out to to the house from his modeler. The lead guitar player may be bringing a small combo amp - but will also be giving a line out to the house from his monitor. I will have a combo amp in the car.

All week long - I've been getting my rig set up for someone else to control. I am really going to miss the T1 on my mic stand where I can make my own adjustments on the fly. I went ahead and balanced out the output levels of all the modeler patches that I use - to make it easier on the sound guy to control my volume.

It is really out of my hands now - so I am just going to focus on doing the best show that I can. My friends in the audience will no doubt tell me if the sound is not up to our normal standards of clarity.

This gig has all kinds of potential for disaster - as we have been unable to rehears as a group since our last show on 1/7. The drummer has been out of the country - then out of town with a death in the family. The bass player and I have played two acoustic gigs in the meantime - and we got together with the other guitar player last night - but the drummer will be driving in late tonight from the funeral.

Time to see what we are made of as a band.

I have run up against this at festivals and events that have a sound-man. I have found that a better explanation is "it's my guitar amp" that seems to make them think, and it seems to be okay then.

quote:

Originally posted by Roy:
I have run up against this at festivals and events that have a sound-man. I have found that a better explanation is "it's my guitar amp" that seems to make them think, and it seems to be okay then.

Sound guy is not the problem. Entertainment coordinating manager is the issue. She specifically instructs the Sound guy on this matter - and he doesnt want to get cross with her. She doesn't know the difference.

The soundguy works in the live sound dept of the local GC and sells L1 systems all week long. He knows how good they sound and admits that his job would be easier.

quote:

I am going to go direct from my modeler and my vocal processor. The bass player is going to have his amp on stage and give a direct line out to to the house from his modeler. The lead guitar player may be bringing a small combo amp - but will also be giving a line out to the house from his monitor. I will have a combo amp in the car.

What is the difference between these and a L1 as your guitar amp?

Lots of good advice in this thread! If we play here again, and I hope we do, then we should just bring in the 3 L1's and set up like we did for the charity gig. Only difference is give the FOH guy line outs from the T1 and politely refuse his monitors. Bottom line, these ARE part of our instrumentation. As someone said in another thread referenced here, one wouldn't accept a "house guitar" as the only choice to play, so why compromise on this?

After so many gigs playing thru the Bose it was disconcerting to me to have no idea of what it sounded like out front. My monitor mix wasn't too bad initially, but it could not compete with what I hear when we have an L1 on either side of my kit. I felt like I was pounding the **** out of my drums all night without getting anywhere. We had quite a few comments that the sound was not as good as usual with those in the back of the room saying it was pretty bad.

Roger
n8c drummer (when not gallivanting around the globe)

quote:

Originally posted by Roy:

quote:

I am going to go direct from my modeler and my vocal processor. The bass player is going to have his amp on stage and give a direct line out to to the house from his modeler. The lead guitar player may be bringing a small combo amp - but will also be giving a line out to the house from his monitor. I will have a combo amp in the car.

What is the difference between these and a L1 as your guitar amp?

Aside from the obvious differences not much. We were dealing with people who know what Bose PA systems look like - and they clearly went out of their way to tell us to NOT bring them. The people making that call were not even present for the actual performance either time that we played their (first time with the L1s - on a Thursday when the sound guy does not work - or the second time this past friday).

I cannot speculate as to the exact reason why they were so adament about not bringing the PA - but we have been trying to get into this venue for almost 2 years now - so we did not want to unnecissarily upset the managment on our first paying show (the thursday night thing was a charity gig that we played for free).

We now know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the sound in that room will be greatly enhanced by use of our equipment - so if they call us for another date - we will attempt to reason the L1s back on stage. If we fail in that effort - then we will have to decide if we are willing to play with the house system or not. My vote - at this point would probably be "NO" which sucks because it is probably the premier non-smoking local cover band venue from all other perspectives. Great location - huge crowds - nice sized stage, etc. Parking sucks - but that is because the crowd is so dang huge.