A bandmate asked me a good question: With respect to the characteristics of a PAS versus a traditional PA: if I buy my own PAS and everyone else in the band is using the traditional PA for now, how can the PAS possibly mix in properly with the rest of the band?
I.e. in comparison with the band system, won't I be too quiet by the stage and too loud at the back of the hall?
(Sorry if this is a repeat question.. but I couldn't find an answer)
I'm making a trip down to Buffalo tomorrow to check this thing out... (I'm in Canada). Can't wait to hear it in action.
|Research & Development|
Good, perceptive question. Give your bandmate my compliments.
This has been tested, extensively. The musician who uses this as "backline" and asks the sound operator to take her/him out of the PA and monitors wins. They hear themselves well, their bandmates hear them well and the audience does too, front to back and side to side.
Of course, many of the benefits of having everyone play with the new concept are lost.
The effect your bandmate describes is real. But I wouldn't desribe it as being too soft on stage and too loud in back. I'd say it the sound of the rest of the band is often too loud in front and not loud enough in back. The player with the Cylindrical Radiator(tm) speaker is well heard regardless of where they are.
You can play with only one player using a Cylindrical Radiator speaker, but why? You've invested countless hours and $$$ getting as good as you are. You've probably never been allowed to pay like a string quartet doing Hendrix at 110 dB-SPL (this system does exactly that). Until you do, I personally would not compromise.
|Research & Development|
Oh yeah, one other thing. Tell us how the gig goes in Buffalo.
I have an additional caveat: having just done two gigs with traditional PA's and the Bose PAS on stage, be careful about the balance out front. The mikes on stage will pick up the Bose sound and add it to the PA mix, which can be good, but it could dominate the mix.
I'm in a similiar situation. I currently have a purchase on hold which I'll be comitting soon for one L1 and one B1.
Our band is a small 4 piece band that performs on average 8-12 times a month locally. We are a 3 piece instrument group (drums, bass, guitar) and 3 part harmony (lead singer, bass w/vocals and drums w/vocals). We use electronic drums with an analog snare that is mic'ed. Our bass amp is a small behringer kick back (like the one in Sketcher) and it's ran direct via xlr to our PA.
I (the guitarist) use the Behringer Vampire (Vamp equalivant) with the Behringer FCB1010 midi controller. I run two balance cables via xlr out of my amp in stereo to our board.
Our main board is a yamaha 5000 with 1000 watts built in. We have two other power amps for subs and monitors. Our tops are powered by the Yamaha mixer for true stereo. (Just the guitar).
I would like to incorporate the L1 as a first side fill, and in 2007 with the assistance of my bass player make a purchase for a second or third L1/B1 and replace our PA all togethor. Can you provide me with a sketch of how our layout might will look as a side fill (replacement for wedges).
Using e-drums+vocals,bass+vocals,guitar w/no vocals and lead singer. How could we effectivly use all 4 channels of the L1. Our Yamaha board has 2 effect busses and one monitor bus. All of which has line outs. Our drummer has indicated he would like to remove his 4x12 cabinet off stage, and consolidate his processor back to his rack, thus removing his power amps and extra weight. It seems the L1 and added B1 could achieve this, including maybe running the bass direct to the L1 as well? I'm thinking guitar->L1, Bass->L1, E-drums->L1 and then remove the 4X12 cabinet off stage, remove 2 wedge monitors (we currently use 4) and then maybe run an effects bus to the fourth channel with vocals and start reducing the monitor power?
Your input is appreciated.
Thanks for using The Sketcher!
This is just a quick note to send you a link to your Sketch in case you want to review it, edit it, or share it with others.
-- click image to make changes to the live version --
I saw your post earlier today, and meant to get back to you to ask you to try the Sketcher.
I'm buried in something until tomorrow morning. Maybe someone else has some ideas in the meantime.
Thanks I appreciate the prompt response. I was just informed by my bass player that he is considering the purchase of 2 L1/B1's at the same time(Possibly in the next month). His major concern (a very valid one) is dealing with stage volume. We currently have a very quiet stage volume. We've tested the radiant of sound by walking around Guitar center for quite some time while we played. How are we able to keep a minimum stage volume while providing adequate sound in the club? He had asked if we could use 2 main L1/B1s as mains while using mine as a side fill for stage?
I did submit a sketcher earlier thanks for linking it to this post.
Here is how I would probably approach things with three L1™s. (I've added some extra B1s but those can come later).
-- click image to make changes to the live version --
Orange numbers are Systems and Inputs using those Systems.
Blue ringed numbers are Channels on the Systems.
I understand your concern about the stage volume and let me address that in a minute. Let's talk about this layout:
You have three vocalists - heard through separate L1s. This is going to add tremendous clarity over a conventional approach because your audience will be able to relate to each vocal individually as well as in the ensemble. This is the eye-ear coordination that offers so much in terms of what the audience can experience. Oh - and you on stage will derive that benefit too. What I have found is when people can understand what they are hearing, they can enjoy the show at a lower volume. But that of course depends on the style of music you are playing.
You have three instruments and each is coming through a separate L1. Yes there's a little bit of overlap with the vocals, but I still predict the same auditory clarity from the placement in space, that this affords.
You'll notice that I'm not going along with the mains/side-wash idea - because it loses all the benefits I mentioned above.
Now back to stage volume. As you walk around Guitar Center listening, it's probably pretty hard to really hear how little difference in volume there is as you move away from the L1™ .
But without getting into a bunch of theory, I can tell you our (four piece four L1™ ) band has been enjoying a much lower stage volume since we went with the L1™. There are a couple of reasons:
No volume wars. Everybody can hear themselves just fine, so there's little tendency each individual to turn up to be heard over the din of the others.
The audience can hear and understand - I mean really understand - our show. Who is doing what, and when. It's pretty amazing when people come up to you after the show and talk about that.
With the L1™ the rate of volume 'drop' over distance is about half what you experience with tradtional speakers so most of the places we play (up to 300-400 people) we are living the dream of playing at a lower volume and being heard by more of the folks who are there.
Todd, I was looking at your set list (on your excellent website ) and I'm getting a very strong impression that vocals, arrangements and dynamics are far more important to you than flat out volume.
I think you are going to really like working with the Bose Systems and especially so, when you let the spacial separation feature what you are bringing to the songs.This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,
Thank you ST, for those kind words and for being very informative. I noticed an additional B1 and packlite which has been discussed.
I feel strongly that our drummer and bassist will benefit from the additional B1's on stage.
Given the right preset, our bassist may be able to eliminate his amp and simply go direct. Im amazed at how this system is setup as a backline, but replaces both your main's and monitors. I have written several reviews on harmony-central about the usage of my Behringer equipment including the programming of my FCB1010 but in an effort to reduce equipment even further I could consolidate my guitar rig down to a Pod xt Live. If you could comment on the special outpout of the Pod XT Live for the L1 I would appreciate it.
Also, if I wanted to play in stereo (guitar) would I just use maybe channel 3 or 4 on L1 #1 and #3?
You are welcome. I figure anyone willing to post date-of-birth type statistics on their website deserves more than a little time and respect in this
You will want to read some of the posts in the Bass section of forum. Andrew Douglas has documented his journey and I'll see if I can find that for you. DanS is another person who has helped me understand that side of the music (I'm a Guitar and Vocal type). It's been a very long night but I'll try to get back to you later with some links.
I've got an POD XT Live and arrived at that after a long line of tubes. Since you've got the Behringer gear, I don't need to engage you in the versatility versus tone discussion.
There are several output modes on XT Live.
I don't think we've ever done a formal survey here, but I think there probably as many who use the XT Live PS1 (Bose) output as there are who don't. It's an area for personal experimentation. The PS1 mode works well for me. But some days, I just run direct to the L1™ and use one of the Electric Guitar presets. (I'm particulary fond of the PRS preset with a 513™ )
I used to carry a huge stereo rig. I understand the motivation and the interest.
By all means, try it. But I think you will find that although lush and rich on stage it will confuse the "auditory soundscape" (I just made that up) that you create with separate points of amplification.
What I found with stereo Guitar
Since your Guitar *is* your voice in the band, I suggest that you do what affords the most presence, localization, and 'place' in the mix. (mono dude mono).
But, it's easy to experiment and when I have run stereo Guitar with the L1™s it sounded better than anything I was ever able to pull off with other gear.
Food for thought?
Here is a very lengthy but interesting discussion where lots of people got involved, talking about Bass.
This is Andrew's
Configuration experiments (long)...unexpected results
And I found a great post by DanS in the middle of a discussion called
As a bassist, I really want to like this...BUT
I can contribute a little bit about E-drums:
We are a trio w/3 L1 systems & (a recent move to ) V-drums.
At times the drum volume on stage gets too loud for me.
I cure by moving away from the L1, angling my position, or turning down
depending on the space available. Small increments make big differences.
When it sounds "just right" to me,
audience feedback is "it could be louder".
But the guys in the band say "it's fine, leave it".
It makes our vocals pop out and
makes us the quiet band we desire to be.
We are having pretty good results convincing
our audience that less gain is less pain.
I have noticed that our video clips
since the move to E-drums are much cleaner and vocally dominant.
Maybe not a great thing for rockin' out bands,
but is great for our oldies style of music.
I have a good video comparison of stage volumes
from indoors to outdoors with a song called
Return to Sender.
The indoor part of the clip was probably the quietest we ever played,
whereas the outdoor was definately the loudest.
My remote control gains are always at noon,
but the outdoor gig everything was on 2 o'clock.
Yet it didn't seem that loud on stage,
must be due to the outdoor area.
About extra B1s:
Two is very good for V-drums.
I use 3 or 4 mostly, much bigger sound.
But indoors in small places 4 can be too much.
It's nice having the scalable option of 2-4.
I hope it helps your decision making.
I made a post a year or so back when I had only one L1 system and was playing in a trio thru a 3-tier system.
Here is that post, a bit dated but still somewhat relevant.
Those drums look really cool. Im curious to know how the audio samples were recorded? The first clip from the inside gig was extremely clear. I'm also curious how large that outer area (hanger, or storage building) was in dimensions?
Add another vocalist in your setting and now you have our band, playing a mixture of oldies, country, funk, etc... Mostly crowd pleasing dance songs that stand the test of time. What's the biggest crowd you've played in front of with the PAS?
Now, the big question, how is everyone transporting their gear? Does each musician bring his own L1? Custom made cases with wheels?
Another words, if I have 3 L1's, that equates, to 9 total pieces, not including the b1's. What's the easiest way to transport multiple L1/B1 combinations.
In a perfect world, everyone owns, transports, sets up, tears down, and stores - his/her own gear. This keeps things manageable in just about every conceivable way.
Everyone is responsible for his/her own pieces:
The Drummer is carrying more, and you guys could negotiate around that.
Every individual gets to decide whether s/he wants to load in/out by hand, with a dolly or cart, custom case with wheels.
Now the fun part.
When you get the gear home, you set it up - because it takes no more room to store it 'standing' than in the bags.
This means that every one of you has the chance to get to know his/her gear intimately (e.g. XT Live - which output, which patches ....)
This last bit - where every gets to work with his/her own system is very important. It makes the L1™ and extension of your instrument instead of a great big amorphous blob: Less than musical, a mêlée, a meltdown where your sound gets flung about like so much debris in a tornado.
Okay - that was a bit dramatic - but every time I think of going back to the 'run my line-outs to the "mains" ' approach I think of tornados in the movies.
Im in full compliance with bringing it home and getting to know it better. The more I consider the transporting of these devices, the more I realize in the amount of time it takes to setup your backline, you'll already be setup.
I alread determined by purchasing my L1/B1 I would replace, my personal existing pa (partly used as monitors) which consist of stands, 12" bi-amp speakers, and a 6 channel 400watt power head. My existing amp, my bass player's kick back amp and my drummer's 4X12 cabinet that he uses to monitor his kick drum.
The bi-amp 12" speakers are used on stage as an additional monitor mix without the stands and power amp. When we play small venues, we utilize this portal PA. The single PAS will compliment small gigs, and my theory towards small gigs is this.
The less real-estate our band can consume, the more potential for gigs. The two remaining PAS's will additionally add to our remaining gigs. We see a potential of playing with 1, 2 and 3 based on real-estate.
Great question Riko.
This is a question that has been running through my mind in considering my purchase of the L1. I know that it will work great in situations where I am doing the singer songwriter thing, or small acoustic trio, both of which I love. But as a practical matter, I know that I will also be playing in group situations (elec/acoustic guitar/vox)where it is a traditional 3-tier system.
Two things come to mind:
1) Will need a person to give some feedback on the front of the house mix, to ensure the L1 level is high enough to mix with the rest of system, so need a friend, spouse, significant other to be present at sound check, and
2) Will I still need an annoying stage monitor so I can hear the mix of rest of the group? What would the experience be like without a monitor?
The best scenario for me is that the whole world has L1s. But in the meantime, need a practical strategy to work with a combined system.
Regardless, I am fairly certain that I will be purchasing an L1 soon. Have test driven them in Sacto, Gilroy and Oxnard, CA and very impressed.
I thought this might explain the foregoing.
"I know what you're thinking, punk," hissed Wordy Harry to his new editor, "you're thinking, 'Did he use six superfluous adjectives or only five?' — and to tell the truth, I forgot myself in all this excitement; but being as this is English, the most powerful language in the world, whose subtle nuances will blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' — well do you, punk?"
- Stuart Vasepuru of Edinburgh, Scotland
The second runner-up for the 2006 the Bulwer-Lytton literary prize.
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