I'm pretty nervous about our gig this Friday, a pre-festival concert with several acts and no house sound support. The venue is a new Veteran's auditorium of large dimensions. The headline act and we are each bringing our own gear, which for us Banshees = our 3 L1 Model IIs, w/ 3 T1s, 2 B1s, beta58 vocal mics, SM57 for instruments. I am also providing sound for an acoustic duo.

Anyway, I have taken courage from the posts of one blues guy, Snakehips, who had a similar gig in Scotland this year, and was worried that the room was too large for his L1 setup. Helpful discussion here. He ended up NOT plugging through the house, and getting superb sound with his L1MII setup.

I'm a bit less worried, thanks to his pioneering spirit! However, never helps to get ideas from the community.

My areas of concern:

1. How to place the L1s amidst a rock band's setup, which will be a la carte... no FOH anything.

2. How to place our L1s so we can crank up without blasting ourselves.

3. I do think we may need to tilt the L1s a bit, depending on whether the audience is below stage or not.

On Saturday we will be sharing the stage with the rock band again(Celtic rockers Tempest, for any Celtoids out there). I imagine we'll use a similar setup.

There are many pesky features of this gig, but these are the most core.

Your thoughts welcome!
Mary

Hi, Mary --

I just came off an acoustic trio gig in an outdoor setting with 2 M2s and 1 Classic. My advice: have faith in the throwing power of your L1s. Indoors, there'll be much less echoing and better intelligibility than competing systems, too. But you've used these for awhile, and know all that.

Sounds like placement is your biggest concern.

Option 1: put the towers behind you as usual, put earplugs in your ears, and crank them as hot as they will go.

Option 2: Put them beside you and maybe in front, where the rock band will presumably put their speakers-on-poles. This assumes you're pretty tight and don't need a lot of monitor sound to interact with one another. A surprising amount of sound comes off the back of the L1s, and that may be all you need. Or, you can toe them in slightly to hear better.

Personally, I prefer option 1, if feedback issues permit. Sounds like you'll have 6 open SM57/58s though, so feedback will probably limit your volume potential. And, if the stage is indeed high and you need to angle the towers down a bit, it's better plac them nearer the front of the stage, in which case option 2 would be better.

Can you set up with enough time to experiment?

One note -- you say you're running 3 M2s with 3 T1s and 2 B1s. Does this mean you're running one of the M2s with no B1? I didn't think that was a recommended configuration.

Best of luck with all of this!

--Rick

Thanks so much, Rick. Well, we so dislike loudness, that we may well go with option 2. Yes, we were pinching pennies when we bought our systems, so bandmate with trebly instruments skipped her B1. Will probably add it in one day soon.

Good thoughts, all. Hopefully we will have time to try it out. I think we'll start there. Hopefully the duo before us will be okay, too. Just miking them.

Thank you!
Mary
Mary

Hi Mary!

We've had to set up outdoors (requiring more volume than usual) a few times with my group and I have tried both ways, behind us and along side of us.

My first option, since you say you'll have to crank up for coverage of your audience area, would be to place your L1 Systems in the more or less traditional FOH style, one on each side of the stage area. But what about the third system??? Hummmm??? I don't have a suggestion there, except to maybe try placing her L1 Model II closest to the side where she'll be playing.

I found (with two L1 systems) that if I placed them just slightly behind the microphone 'line' and 6 - 8 feet off to the side of the microphone closet to the system on that side, that we could get good (loud) volume without any feedback and we didn't get "blasted". We use our T1s and I put two of us in one L1 and two of us in the other L1. This setup allows us to easily hear one another and has worked fine for us in the past. Of course, your stage area may dictate something different. And of course, the Lodge Brothers all sit or stand in a fairly straight line across the front of the stage when performing. The Banshees may not position yourselves that way on stage during your performance. I seem to remember pictures of you guys spread out across the stage and sort of facing each other while performing (which is very nice by the way...).

We've tried the 'behind us' configuration a couple of times when we were performing outside and needed to be cranked up. First, with so many mics open, feedback becomes a problem and it seems I'm always fighting it or we're just on the verge of going into feedback which drives me nuts! I should say here, our stage depth has only been about 8-9 feet (max) when doing this. I suspect if you had a very deep stage and could position your L1s 10-15 ft. behind you, it would be ideal! We've just never played anywhere that allowed that much freedom for us on stage. Secondly, the times we have setup this way, the guys have complained about it being 'loud', since it was more than our normal volume.

Of course, the real trick is to be able to play and perform comfortably. If you're not having fun, the audience won't be either! So, you might want to approach the gig with everyone knowing the obstacles and knowing things might not be "as usual", because of your circumstances with the stage, setup, etc. It helps when everyone has the frame of reference knowing things might be a little different, too.

Best of luck to the Banshees on your gig! You're professionals, you'll make it work, I'm sure of that!

John

Hi Mary,

Do you expect the rock band's gear to be in your way? Are they really more important than you? Why do L1 users think they have to be the nice guys all the time, and somehow less than those who use conventional equipment?

I would use the same setup I always use, or as close as possible. It's great to accomadate others but don't be pushed into doing something unknown. Arrive early, make your case, stick with it. You might shift to one side or the other of the stage because of drums but try to keep your positions, relative to each other and your respective L1, as near normal as possible.

If it is truly a concert atmosphere, volume shouldn't be an issue. I recall attending a Merle Haggard concert in a nice theater some years back. After the first song he said, "this is as loud as were gonna get, if you want to hear, you have to listen." The L1's will carry quite far with normal volume, and those wanting to hear, will.

My experience in larger spaces is that the sound is not as lively (in my playing position) as in small places, directly related to the loss of close reflections, I think. You might be tempted to use more effects, be careful not to overdo it.

I don't mean for this to sound too aggressive, just that we must stand up for ourselves, and believe that what is normal for us is as important as what is normal for a band with conventional equipment. The extra few minutes it might take to make changes between shows will be worth it to you, the other acts, and your audience. Believe it.

O..

Hi Mary!

Oldghm - thank you for saying this.

quote:

Do you expect the rock band's gear to be in your way? Are they really more important than you? Why do L1 users think they have to be the nice guys all the time, and somehow less than those who use conventional equipment?

I would use the same setup I always use, or as close as possible. It's great to accomadate others but don't be pushed into doing something unknown. Arrive early, make your case, stick with it.

Hi, nobody's made us less important, and it's not a battle of the bands, here. Just an audio and logistical challenge.

My only annoyance is at festival organizers who require bands to provide sound. (I understand that many bands bring their own gear as backline in any case.) Just not first cabin, in my book. But that doesn't have anything to do with the questions I raised about L1 placement, etc.

Mary

Thanks to you all for the many good ideas. There's always the challenge of juggling between the map and the territory, so I thought I'd get fortified with helpful hints before we head off today. Muchly appreciated! And I'll be sure to report back.

Everybody have a great weekend!
Mary

Hi Mary,

Let me softly say again, "I don't mean for this to sound too aggressive".

What I am trying to say is, do what you would normally do. Place the L1s in your normal configuration. Tilt them slightly if neccessary.

If you change your setup to accomadate the other performers your show will suffer. That's not fair to you, or your audience.

You asked, "how to place the L1's amidst a rock bands setup,..."

Why not ask, "how to set up a rock band around the L1's?"

Either of the above is not fair, so work together to arrive at something that is approximate to your normal setup.

You don't have to sound contensious like my post. You can achieve your setup and still be a lady.

O..

Oldghm... uhhh... I don't believe I said anything unladylike, whatever that means. I was just being direct.

You asked, and I shall now answer:

Do you expect the rock band's gear to be in your way?
- No.

Are they really more important than you?
- No.

Why do L1 users think they have to be the nice guys all the time, and somehow less than those who use conventional equipment?
- I don't know, because I sure don't.

I think my post and questions were pretty straightforward. We have a lot of respect and friendship for Tempest, and even if we didn't know them, would assume a collaborative relationship.

Hope this clears things up. Thanks for your replies!

Mary

Hi Again Mary,

I'm so sorry.

I think my direct approach as well might have been missinterpreted.

I mean no disrespect to you or any other performer.

No, you didn't say anything unladylike. I was trying to say you could achieve your desired setup without sounding as contentious as "my" post sounded. Hope I'm not making this worse. I did not mean to imply that you sounded contentious, or unlady like. I was trying to suggest that you would / could handle the situation better than I.

The questions in my posts were intended to be rhetorical. Intended to address any situation where an L1 band might ask "how to place the L1's amidst a rock bands setup?"

I interpreted your original post as you feeling as if your band would not have equal opportunity to stage space, and therefore would need to "work around" the other group.

Please accept my sincerest apology, I meant no disrespect.

O..

edit corrected spelling

O, apology very accepted. I did know you meant well, and you did offer some good advice in there in your first post, which I did read. Just thought you read way more in there than I intended.

It's also good to be cautious around the lady/unlady thing. Again, I know you meant it as a lightly humorous rejoinder and not as any aspersion, but it really has no place in a professional exchange. As an FYI, speaking as part of the female minority on this forum and in many performance situations: We women musicians are often treated as "little ladies" who know nothing of big scary sound reinforcement matters.

And no doubt I have learned to respond rather crisply, as here. So, that's where that was coming from in my replies. Just looking for collegial exchange, which is much appreciated. After all these years and so many performance situations ranging from fair to foul, a real head-scratcher does still turn up.

Best to you, thanks to all, and I'll let you know how it goes!

Mary

This message has been edited. Last edited by: MBanshee,

On the topic that Oldghm brought up, about L1 users feeling "less than" or in competition with bands with other gear... sounds like a topic unto itself, yes? It's certainly real and worthy of deeper consideration.

I'd hate to see it buried in my podunk little gig-help discussion! So maybe if it's on peoples' minds, somebody (hint, hint) should start a new discussion.

Just a thought, for those warming to that subject...

Mary

After All That, Dept....

Here we are, leaving in an hour for the gig, and I went to check out the venue website, mainly to get the address. Well, they'd upgraded the site. Where before there was just a flat layout map, now there was a "rent our facility" section with lots of pictures!

I so do not have to worry. It's a 350 seat auditorium that could have been designed as the ideal L1 venue! I had thought it was a big multipurpose room with a stage...

I'll send a picture when we get back. For those wrestling with this issue, I think there's lots of great advice here, and in the link to snakehip's very similar discussion in my original post.

Sheesh. Of all the misapprehensions abounding in my recent life, this is the best. I love it when venues are BETTER than I'd thought!

There is, though, the matter of Saturday's outdoor stage. That will be more interesting as a collating-the-gear situation, so I'll report on that.

Okay, now I really am signing off to go do what we all do!

Mary

Hi Rick, John, O, St, and all else who may be interested in how our gig came out. Again, thanks for caring and chipping in with suggestions. I had a lot more confidence going in, thanks to you. With the much improved room situation Friday night, and the tiny main stage on Saturday at the festival, we were able to take a fairly classic approach. Tempest were terrific stage partners, and thankfully had brought a very scaled-back pile o' gear. (They are among the Celtic/Scots Festival elite, who play the biggest, loudest stages. They jump around alot, as do their minions of fans. It's a hoot to watch. Sometimes it makes us wish we had bass and drums, too! We informally bill ourselves as the 'estrogen palate cleanser' when sharing the stage with this ilk.)

The following photo posts are in chronological order.

1. We all showed up at the same time: the opening duo, us, and Tempest. Our task: set up such that a pipe band and dancers could open the show, and we could manage the stage ourselves. Tempest set up and sound checked first, so they could push back and not be tangled in our gear. We were able to get our gear completely off the stage at intermission, before their set.

So, here's us setting up, with their gear pushed back:

Pipe band opening show. Wish we'd caught the two amazing young dancers, too!

Duo playing through Jill's and my systems. I set up "Guest" scenes on our T1s, used very basic settings:

Guitarist: vocal mic - Shure beta 58, no EQ adjustment; guitar - Utility flat, no adjustment. Just a really natural sound he was content with.

Fiddler: vocal/fiddle mic - Shure beta 58, little EQ; guitar mic - utility flat (same guitar, shared).

BTW, This young lady is 19 and a stellar Celtic fiddler with a knockout Celtic voice.... she should go far. I hope, I hope!

Banshee in the Kitchen. No tilting needed. A little redirecting for minor feedback issues. Jill's L1 is off center, partly for the drumset, and partly because she stands back a bit and is often too close to it, otherwise. So it's back a couple of feet from mine.

Our load out to backstage was fast and much appreciated by Tempest, who had plenty of room to jump around (though they were fairly subdued without the big stacks...

But wait, there's MORE...! For those interested in outdoor set up: We arrived early to find the littlest main stage ever (what were they thinking??. Jill had the brilliant idea of asking for a couple of tables to put behind, for our setup, which gave us a bit more distance, and all of us more room.

Before Tempest set up, we walked our mic stands/T1s to back of stage, so we could bring them forward for our set, ready to go, without crowding the stage.

The only drama: During our first set, my sound kept cutting out! I was singing and playing, so it was most disconcerting. I tried rebooting the T1, my husband rebooted the L1, but no dice! Next tune, we realized that the power was cutting out (can't watch the T1 whilst singing...).

My husband and the bass player from Tempest ran to the power unit (provided via generator). It turned out that the output was set to 90 watts! Yikes! One turn of the dial and we were fine.