Hello everyone. I play in a classic/modern rock cover band with 2 guitars, bass, drums, plus 3 vocals.

We like to rock out, but we have found our nitch as to not be too loud (and always get called back for gigs). I actually initiated the call for the Bose systems to do this based upon what I read and heard from the street.

So...each guitar player/singer purchased a model II with the single bass mod and tone match. Being that I love the tone of my Ampeg V4BH (all tube head), and being that when I demo'd the system at Guitar Center I wasn't groovin' on the bass punch, I am still researching what PAS to get.

I will have to put my vocals, bass (possibly), and the kick through it. Currently we are not micing the kick and my vocals are going through one of the guitarists systems.

Will the model I hang fine with the Model II's as a match on stage? I would be able to use the savings to add 2 more bass modules, so this is whay I am considering this possiblity.

Please vote and respond quickly as I plan to purchase a system very soon.

Thanks!

Question:
L1 Model I or L1 Model II for bass, kick, and 1 vocal?

Choices:
L1 Model I (double bass module kit)
L1 Model II (single bass module)
L1 Model II w/ extra bass module

 

Hi Eric,

quote:

Will the model I hang fine with the Model II's as a match on stage? I would be able to use the savings to add 2 more bass modules, so this is whay I am considering this possiblity.

From out in front of the stage the Model I and Model II sound very similar.

On the stage you or more likely your bandmates will hear more detail from the Model II. This is due to the smoother dispersion of the sound at the extreme left and right that you get with the Model II.

The audience will tend to hear the Model II more clearly than the Model I, but this is most apparent off to the sides. This is again due to the smoother dispersion of the sound off-axis.

As Bass is much less directional it than higher frequencies, you may not notice the differences between the sound of the Model I and Model II.

Where I notice the difference, as a Guitar player, is on the stage. I hear much more of the attacks and harmonics and percussive cues from a Bass with the Model II. But that is because I am way off-axis from the Bassist. I still hear what he is doing with the Model I, much better than through any other Bass rig I have heard. But we are talking comparisons to the Model II so I thought you'd like to know about it.

Most of the time, when setting up for a room with up to 200 people, I have been happy with the Bassist running two B1s. The music has been Blues, R&B with some heavy Jazz influences.



If you think that is comparable to what you are doing, you might be fine with a Model II and two B1s. That's what I would do.

If you are not mic'ing the Kick Drum, I doubt that you will need more than two B1s.


The Model II is much easier to set-up and move around. Of course you will want a T1® if you go that route. So you might need to factor that into your budget.

Does that help?

Thanks ST!

I will be pretty much right in front of my own PAS, so I am thinking for stage monitoring it won't matter much. Is the dispersion that much better with the Model II's? I have read that it is better, but better like mono to stereo better, or like tap water (Not California) to bottled water better?

I noticed last gig (first one with the PAS) that even though I was just off axis of a PAS (the guitarist's which I had my vocals through), I could hear myself fine and sometime it sounded like my vocals were coming from the other side of our "stage" setup. Generally our backling is about 12'-15' wide.

As for the tone match, (ancient Chinese secret here) for some tunes I will run my background vocals through a vocal processor to enhance live harmonies, and it also has a reverb/delay for regular vocals so I think I will be covered there (unless the kick requires major processing).

Also, let me add that the Model II with the extra bass module + tone match + adapter, may delay my purchase as it is significantly higher than the model I with dual bass modules.

Hi Eric,

quote:

Originally posted by albanyeric:
Thanks ST!

I will be pretty much right in front of my own PAS, so I am thinking for stage monitoring it won't matter much.

I agree, it probably won't matter much to you for your monitoring, but it may matter to your bandmates. I didn't do a very good job explaining that. I am usually at 1east 10-15 feet from the Bassist (vocalist too). I can hear his instrument better through the Model II. I am talking about attacks and accents and all those wonderful things that happen above the bass fundamental notes. I can also hear his vocals better. I know that this helps us to be tighter overall and our harmonies are more accurate.

quote:

Is the dispersion that much better with the Model II's? I have read that it is better, but better like mono to stereo better, or like tap water (Not California) to bottled water better?

I think so. More on the order of mono to stereo better. I don't drink bottled water, and just to add to the strangeness of the conversation - I don't run in stereo either. But that's another conversation.

quote:

I noticed last gig (first one with the PAS L1® ) that even though I was just off axis of a PAS L1® (the guitarist's which I had my vocals through), I could hear myself fine and sometime it sounded like my vocals were coming from the other side of our "stage" setup.

That's the Model II for you. The Model I is good, better than most things in this respect. The Model II is better.

quote:

Generally our backline is about 12'-15' wide.

How deep is the stage? The shallower the stage, the more I notice the difference in the evenness of the dispersion.

quote:

As for the tone match, (ancient Chinese secret here) for some tunes I will run my background vocals through a vocal processor to enhance live harmonies, and it also has a reverb/delay for regular vocals so I think I will be covered there (unless the kick requires major processing).

Won't you need at least two and maybe three inputs?

Vocal
Bass
Maybe later at some point - Kick Drum

That's why I was thinking you might need a T1®



ST

PS
PAS L1® because PAS is a trademark held by another company. So we usually use the term L1® or or just L1 around here.

Very true, I am thinking maybe more with my wallet at this point. About $1000 difference according to my calc.

Hi Eric,

If you have a small mixer kicking around you could do without the T1® for awhile. You could run

• your vocal effects chain to the mixer and
  
• the line out from your bass rig into the mixer, and then
  
• send the mixer output to the Model II Power Stand analog input.

Hmmm-that may be the best bet. I am also looking into whether I could use an 8 ohm bass cab for extra bass as I have read that bassists like their cabs over the bass modules.

I will say that my current band gigs 3 to 4 times per month and the last gig set up/break down time and being able to hear everything was a refreshing change. For a semi-pro rack cover band that plays bars/taverns on a regular basis, this system is the ticket.

This friday is the second gig with the L1's, so at soundcheck I am going to put each bass module on one system and plug in to check it out (when I demo'd the bass through it at GC they only had one bass module).

quote:

I am also looking into whether I could use an 8 ohm bass cab for extra bass as I have read that bassists like their cabs over the bass modules.

I read this a lot lately.

I have played many gigs with three different bassists using the L1 systems, all three have loved the sound. The first two used 2-B1s, my last bassist uses 4, but I still prefer the sound of two and using EQ to make up the difference. I think it's punchier that way, in smaller venues. Seems to drive the amps harder...but that's just my opinion. I have always been able to hear the punch of the bass guitar better when only 2-B1s are used.

Here is something else, my bassist, after using the B1s for a year or so, told me he missed his combo amp and he wanted to start using it again. He said he missed the punch. He pulled it out for a gig a while back when we were sharing our L1 systems. Afterwards he went back to his B1s and never mentioned the combo again. I think nostalgia factors in to this. Once you get used to a smoother bass tone, and realize it blends better in an all-L1 band, everything is fine.

Down the road, I'm sure your drummer will want to mic that kick. There is nothing quite like having that full round tone. I play better when I can feel it...I use 4-B1s always. The kick gate in the Tonematch Engine really makes a kick drum shine.

Thanks. How does the kick go over with only 2 B1s?

Also, it is a tone thing for the direct bass. There is a reason I ended up with a tube amp and not a Line 6 or Roland modeling amp. I just dig the tone more-especially the natural compression from the tubes when you dig in. Then again, your pay increase the less you have to break down at the end of the night, so I may end up going that route anyway.

I guess if the Model II is that much better, than the model I would just leave me wanting more...

Can the model I voter please chime in-I would like your input!

I use a model 1 with 4 bass modules for my bass, lead vocal and our e-drummer.

We play rock/metal and I love the sound. All three sound fantastic to me out of my L1.

I initially had two bass modules which sounded great to me for bass at practice. I got 4 because of concerns about bigger venues and because the e drums were going to be running through my L1, and I didn't know if 2 would be enough for a nice sounding kick.

I like my voice straight with no effects, so not having a T1 is not an issue.

I guess you have to decide which is more important for your situation, more bass modules or a T1 for vocal effects.

You could always get the model 1 and add a T1 later, as the T1 works with the L1 as well.

I think you mentioned you might be ditching your amp altogether.

Another way to go would be to get the new pox x3, it has built in vocal effects with xlr in and out on top of being a bass pod and guitar pod all in one. I don't own one so I have no idea if the effects are any good.

However I will say this about putting an effects unit or mixer inbetween your mic and the L1....I've found it adds another gain stage, adds some hiss, and makes set up more complicated. I tried putting my vocal through a mixer for effects and found I didn't like the effects because it cut into my clarity. And since my vocal was running through a mixer I no longer had the ability to turn it up or down via the remote because I would be turning other insturments up or down as well.

So, if I really wanted effects on my voice I'd go all bose and go for a T1.

As a 'bass/kick' amp, I don't think the model II really has any advantage OTHER THAN size & weight -- you have to judge how important that weight aspect is to you. If I envisioned it also serving as lead vocal, and other uses, particularly "by itself" (not in that band), I'd have to more seriously weigh the delay in getting a Model II vs. the major benefits of a Model I much sooner.

If I had the money for Model I + 2 B1's + T1, but didn't see the extra $$ soon for Model II, then I'd get the Model I. If I already had a little mixer and not enough for the T1 right now, then the T1 would be postponed until later because the Model I has a nice set of Presets already in it.

Adding Packlite (A1) + 2 more B1's would also go on the list of future acquisitions.

quote:

Originally posted by albanyeric:
I am also looking into whether I could use an 8 ohm bass cab for extra bass as I have read that bassists like their cabs over the bass modules.

Hi Eric,

Please note that Bose does not recommend the use of any speaker other than the B1 be used with the Model I or Model II.

You can use the bass line out to run an additional amp and bass cab.

O..

Oldghm,

There’s info with instructions from ST on how to connect a third party cab to an L1 (using the amp in the L1) on this thread:

http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7466055944/m/4421067503

“If you plug a non-Bose cab into the Amp 3 Out you get:

Bandpass 40-110 Hz
Bandpass 40-180 Hz if you insert a 'dummy' plug into the Bass Line-Out
125 Watts into 8 ohms
(250 into 4 ohms)”

Jazzman,

ST is referring to the "Classic". The question in this thread refers to the Model I and Model II, I believe the Bose recommendation is different for them.

Please correct me if I am wrong but I don't think the Model I has an "amp 3 out".

Maybe I should go check before I post this, but what the heck I'll go with my gut on this one.

O..

OK, I went and checked on this. The Model I does have a B1 Bass Module out that is also labled (Amp 3 OUT) in small letters. However, if you read the FAQs about the use of other "passive" subs you will see the answer is "No".

Not sure why, maybe someone who knows will enlighten us.

O..

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Oldghm,

Perhaps it has to do with the Model I having combined 500W, efficient packlite technology amps, whereas the Classic has the original combined 750W amps.

quote:

Originally posted by albanyeric:
Thanks. How does the kick go over with only 2 B1s?

A bass drum with a good mic and two B1s in a small/medium room and a moderate volume band will have a fuller, rounder tone. I am more comfortable and enthusiastic when I hear the whole tone of the kick, not just what you normally hear sitting behind it.

Two B1s was great in church, where it was quiet and reverent, but for the '60s music I've been playing with the trio, two B1s was just not enough in larger rooms and louder audiences. Myself and others users brought that fact up here in the forums and within a year Bose came out with the 3lb. Packlite amp & extended bass package (amp & 2-B1s). Four gives a much bigger sound...more than double of what 2 can do, to my ears. And a *better* sound as well.

Four B1s definitely puts you more into the *thumping* sound that everyone wants. However, I still had problems with my bass drum with the Packlite & 4 B1s in that the decay envelope in *certain* rooms would rumble on too long. Some rooms were fine, others were problematic. I wound up using a third party device called a Transient Designer to control the decay of the drum sound. It operates in a similar fashion to a noise gate, and was heavy and expensive. Again, myself and others complained about this in the forums. Within a year, the T1 came out.

With the release of the T1, Bose has incorporated The Kick Gate, which is a similar tool to the TD, and closes the gate on the bass drum tone, stopping the rumble and allowing for the kick drum volume level to be turned up much more than before. I can actually turn mine up full volume without feedback.

The Kick Gate with only two B1s is an improvement, in that you can get more volume from the drum, but the tone might, depending on the room, start to trash out (sound paper-y) before it gets *loud* loud. The Kick Gate and 4-B1s is again, a major boost, offering not only more level but way fuller, more consistent tone as the volume gets loud.

I hope that this answers your question as well as pointing out that Bose *really* listens to our problems.

I guess what I'm saying here in answer to your very first post is that if you are a pop band of sorts, and money IS a consideration, buy a Model I or a used Classic, a Packlite, 4-B1s, and a T1. Plenty of inputs, plenty of bass.

P

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Drumr,

Oldghm,

If third party cabs really can’t be used with the Model 1 and Model II that will make the Classic the preferred L1 for many bass players. This sure looks like backwards progress in terms of meeting musician’s needs with the new models. Remember, there are a lot of bass players out there who prefer third party cabs.

There is a lot of evidence indicating that, in a band situation, bass players are most often the ones who are the least satisfied with the L1.

Hopefully Bose hasn’t engineered in a roadblock to a positive solution for many bass players. This will mean that there will be fewer bands using L1’s, and fewer L1 sales too.

W.A.

Here is a summary of what is documented about using non-Bose loudspeakers attached to the Power Stand.

We have notes in the wiki that covers what happens at the Power Stand at the point where we typically attach a B1. This covers the Classic/Model in one section and the Model II in another.

• Classic / Model I
  
• Model II

The connection for the Power Stand (all models) to the B1 uses a conventional Speakon NL4 connection that can be used with other non-Bose cabinets.

From the very latest version of the Bose FAQs published this year.

quote:

Quoting from the General L1® FAQs that apply to all Models

Can I connect a passive subwoofer to the bass module output?
No. We don't recommend connecting anything to this output except a B1 bass module, as the internal amplifier and bass module(s) are designed to properly equalize the system when connected. You may use the bass line-out connection, however, to feed a powered subwoofer or additional amplifier.

Can I use the bass line out to connect to a bass amplifier and cabinet?]

Yes. The bass line-out connector provides a flat 40 Hz to 180 Hz bandpass signal when no B1 bass modules are connected. We recommend unplugging the bass modules to ensure correct EQ compensation of the bass line-out jack and phase consistency.

Ken Jacob describes the Bose 45 day Better Music Guarantee.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken-at-Bose in 45 Day Trial from Bose & Other Purchase Options

There are times when text and talk need to be supplemented by actual product use to know if the L1™ system is for you.

For this reason, Bose offers a 45 day risk free home trial when you purchase from us.

Call 800/905-0886 or 800/444-BOSE or log in to www.bose.com/musicians to make these arrangements.

If for any reason you are not satisfied with the performance of the L1™ approach within this trial period you can return the equipment for a full refund.

That is what we have that is documented.


Eric (albanyeric),

I encourage you and any reader to put all of this together and draw your own conclusions about the options and recommendations that Bose has given us. Also, as you have wisely done, give us some information about what you are trying to accomplish and seek the opinions of people with first-hand experience. In these situations I pay greatest heed to those who address my questions. I try to apply the principles of Critical Thinking to the process.

Best wishes in your quest. Please let me know if I can help.