Hi Folks,
I am trying to do the bass parts for my latest record and I'm really struggling. The current song I am working on is in A Flat and when I play the part my A Flats get completely lost in the mix. I can see them on my computer, I can here them through my L1 as I'm playing the part but when I listen back it's as if they are not there!

The other notes sound fantastic. They are deep, rich, mellow and just as I want the bass to sound but then it sounds like it drops out when I get back to the A flat.

I've had this problem with other songs and the notes on the low E string but this one is the worst yet. Is this an EQ problem. I am running my American Fender P Bass through my T1 and using the P Bass setting and I like the way everything sounds through my L1.

I'm not an accomplished bass player. Could it be my technique. I've tried hitting the A flat harder and laying back on the other notes but that doesn't seem to help much.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

I think it is my speakers. I can hear the notes when I go to headphones.

Hi Matt,

Could be the room?

You could try moving the speakers into another room, or just moving the speakers around a bit.

Thanks ST!
I'll try to mess with them today and see if that helps. Maybe I need a sub.

I haven't had a lot of luck with these speakers. They are Tapco S-5's. I generally like the way they sound when I listen to music but mixing with them but mixing with them has been a challenge.

In our last house I screwed up and mounted a shelf above my desk. I was doing all of my mixing with the speakers sitting on this shelf. I burned a CD of what I thought were final mixes only to find a low end rumbling on all of the songs that I could hear through the speakers!

I was told that was because I had them on a shelf. (I'm still pretty new to this stuff) so I got some headphones that came highly recommended and used mainly my headphones and my L1 to mix my last record.

Last night I ignored the bass and mixed the rest of the song through the Tapcos. Then I put on my headphones and added the bass and I really liked the result. At least I did last night. I'm going to play it through the L1 later today to see how that sounds.

As always, I really appreciate your help!

Take good care,
Matt

Matt,


Just as a sanity check, make sure you don't have a narrow filter set up in the Para EQ on Ab :-) that would do it.

ST of course is right on as well, your room may just be a dead spot for Ab. Its scary how much the room can torpedo a single note. Try moving your listening position too. If you are in the dead center of the room you are more prone to this sort of thing.

Although the newer fender basses are much better, old fender basses often had dead spots on the neck. They usually occurred a little more up the neck. Hows the bass sound through the L1?

When you are mixing, keep your listening level really low, this helps mitigate some of the problems of the room.

Mixing is a whole other can of worms, and could be a whole other forum :-)

Mike

This message has been edited. Last edited by: MikeZ-at-Bose,

Thanks Mike!
I plugged the bass back into the L1 just to test it out. It sounded fine to me but the A flat seems a little bit more muted than other notes. The G and the A seem fine but it looses a little when I move to the A flat.

I checked the T1 too and I turned off the Para EQ. I was using it to try and boost the A flat but that didn't seem to help.

It is definitely the speakers. I just played the song through my L1 and it sounds great. I'll try to move my speakers and see if that makes a difference.

Is there anything wrong with mixing my record with headphones and my L1?

Matt

Matt,

There's nothing wrong with mixing on headphones if you are happy with the results and it works for you. I was just cautioning - I have trouble mixing on headphones to get a mix that sounds good on other systems ('travels well'). But if it works for you - then by all means go for it.

The L1 is a very good reference speaker to use for mixing, especially as a check. Most mixing engineers use several systems - usually one 'main' one (usually some sort of magical pair of bookshelf reference monitors) and then a slew of 'representative systems'. When I did studio mixing I used to bring a Sony boom box and hook into a bus output of the console I was working on. It was my best friend for telling me if if what I was mixing sounded 'right' in the context of the rest of the listening world. After working for a while on the bookshelf's, Id swap over and listen for 30 seconds on the boombox.

Some guys use their cars for this, others use the receptionists computer speakers....whatever works. I liked the boombox since it fit nicely on the meter bridge :-)

Good luck mixing,
Mike

Matt

When I get a normal-sounding mix with good bass definition, on solo it normally sounds closer to a guitar. All your definition is in the upper harmonics, not the bass part of the spectrum. Try turning the bass down and the mids and highs up. OR (this works a lot too turn the bass down and bring the entire bass instrument level up. Keep doing this until it sounds more defined and you can make out the individual notes better.

I'm with ST on the room tho. How are you recording? a direct out of the L1 or a mic on the L1?

quote:

Id swap over and listen for 30 seconds on the boombox

MikeZ....good to see I'm not the only looney who does this!

I mix with the headphones and then eventually change everything once I run thru the near-field monitors. Then it's off to the home PC (bose speakers), boombox, living room stereo, car stereo (bose), work PC, another boombox and then back to the near-field for another mixdown.

Then I take a few days off and run thru the cycle again for one last tweak.

Too bad my playing still shucks. Hahahahaha.

JD

Mike,
Thanks for the reply. I used several different sources to mix my last record. I would go back and forth between headphones and my L1 in my office/studio and then sometimes use my monitors. Then I'd burn a copy and play it through our Bose Acoustic Wave System and then in my car. That seemed to work pretty well. This bass thing is something I haven't run into before. I like the boombox idea too!

Cliff,
Thanks so much for the input! I just listed to my current bass part on solo and I totally over compensated for my "missing" A flat and now the A flat is too loud, at least through my L1.

The only recordings I have done through my L1 have been by taking the master out of the T1 to my audio interface. I haven't tried putting a mic on the L1.

This last bass part I recorded using my Pendulum SPS-1. I boosted a narrow band of the low end at about 50Hz to try and make up for my "missing" A flat. It appears I overdid it! I'll have to record another part. I'll do this next one with my T1 and see how it compares to the SPS-1.

Thanks!
Matt

I disagree with mixing on headphones. That is probably one of the quickest ways to get a bad mix. Headphones should only be used for recording IMO. I've talked to several recording engineers and they said the same thing, "everything sounds better on headphones, you won't get a correct impression." You want to have your song sound good coming our of speakers like most people will listen to it, so that it how you should mix.

Also, when mixing bass make sure you listen at 85 dbl max. Otherwise you start to hear how the room amplifies and effects the the mix, various frequencies will be distorted from their actual sound. This is especially true if you are mixing in an untreated room. You'll also fatigue your ears quickly and lose perspective on the song.

Mix at this level or lower. when you think it sounds good do the" next room check." Walk to another room and listen to it louder. Things that are sticking out way to much will be easy to hear.

How is the pan and the eq of the other instruments? If the bass in center and your have guitars or other instruments centered they will have to be eq's to have their own eq slot. EQ is even more important in mixing because all the instruments are being produced from the same two speakers.

With my bass I found adding to the 39hrts bass range actually added a lot of definition.

Also, you could try a compressor. In fact it could be the answer to your whole problem. A compressor set right will bring up the quieter parts and keep the bass from peaking. We laid down a couple of song, where live I had no problem hearing the G string, but when I recorded it, it dissappeared. When I tried recording it again and simply played the notes harder it made for unpleasant string noise. The compressor did the trick.

quote:

Originally posted by Ric:
I disagree with mixing on headphones. That is probably one of the quickest ways to get a bad mix. Headphones should only be used for recording IMO. I've talked to several recording engineers and they said the same thing, "everything sounds better on headphones, you won't get a correct impression." You want to have your song sound good coming our of speakers like most people will listen to it, so that it how you should mix.

Hi Ric,
Thanks for weighing in. I really appreciate it. I would never only mix on headphones. I tend to do a lot more mixing now on headphones because I am usually recording, etc. at night and our 13 month old is in the room next door. But I use my headphones to get a general idea of what I want and then try out my Tapcos and move on to other systems.

I learned of these headphones (Sony MDR-7506) from one of the engineers at Disc Makers. I would describe the sound of these as very raw and honest. I can't listen to them for very long without fatigue and to me, they are not coloring or altering the mix much at all. I hear things on the headphones that are not showing up on the Tapcos.

quote:

Originally posted by Ric:Also, when mixing bass make sure you listen at 85 dbl max. Otherwise you start to hear how the room amplifies and effects the the mix, various frequencies will be distorted from their actual sound. This is especially true if you are mixing in an untreated room. You'll also fatigue your ears quickly and lose perspective on the song.

Mix at this level or lower. when you think it sounds good do the" next room check." Walk to another room and listen to it louder. Things that are sticking out way to much will be easy to hear.

With regard to the 85db or lower, would I want to get some kind of gizmo that would tell me the db level as I am listening? I sure wouldn't know how to judge that otherwise.

I like the idea of the other room trick!

quote:

Originally posted by Ric:How is the pan and the eq of the other instruments? If the bass in center and your have guitars or other instruments centered they will have to be eq's to have their own eq slot. EQ is even more important in mixing because all the instruments are being produced from the same two speakers.

With my bass I found adding to the 39hrts bass range actually added a lot of definition.

I have my guitar tracks panned left and right to try and create some space in the mix and give everything its own place. In the past I have had a really hard time getting the bass and piano parts to get along. The low notes on the piano compete with the bass and jumble everything up. I have not been happy with my recent piano parts though and I may just skip it entirely for this project.

quote:

Originally posted by Ric:Also, you could try a compressor. In fact it could be the answer to your whole problem. A compressor set right will bring up the quieter parts and keep the bass from peaking. We laid down a couple of song, where live I had no problem hearing the G string, but when I recorded it, it dissappeared. When I tried recording it again and simply played the notes harder it made for unpleasant string noise. The compressor did the trick.

I have messed around with some of the different compression settings (GarageBand) and you are right, that does seem to help.

I really appreciate all the advice. There sure is a lot to recording, mixing, etc. It can be overwhelming!

Matt

quote:

Originally posted by open-road-matt:

quote:

Originally posted by Ric:
I disagree with mixing on headphones. That is probably one of the quickest ways to get a bad mix. Headphones should only be used for recording IMO. I've talked to several recording engineers and they said the same thing, "everything sounds better on headphones, you won't get a correct impression." You want to have your song sound good coming our of speakers like most people will listen to it, so that it how you should mix.

Hi Ric,
Thanks for weighing in. I really appreciate it. I would never only mix on headphones. I tend to do a lot more mixing now on headphones because I am usually recording, etc. at night and our 13 month old is in the room next door. But I use my headphones to get a general idea of what I want and then try out my Tapcos and move on to other systems.

I learned of these headphones (Sony MDR-7506) from one of the engineers at Disc Makers. I would describe the sound of these as very raw and honest. I can't listen to them for very long without fatigue and to me, they are not coloring or altering the mix much at all. I hear things on the headphones that are not showing up on the Tapcos.

quote:

Originally posted by Ric:Also, when mixing bass make sure you listen at 85 dbl max. Otherwise you start to hear how the room amplifies and effects the the mix, various frequencies will be distorted from their actual sound. This is especially true if you are mixing in an untreated room. You'll also fatigue your ears quickly and lose perspective on the song.

Mix at this level or lower. when you think it sounds good do the" next room check." Walk to another room and listen to it louder. Things that are sticking out way to much will be easy to hear.

With regard to the 85db or lower, would I want to get some kind of gizmo that would tell me the db level as I am listening? I sure wouldn't know how to judge that otherwise.

I like the idea of the other room trick!

quote:

Originally posted by Ric:How is the pan and the eq of the other instruments? If the bass in center and your have guitars or other instruments centered they will have to be eq's to have their own eq slot. EQ is even more important in mixing because all the instruments are being produced from the same two speakers.

With my bass I found adding to the 39hrts bass range actually added a lot of definition.

I have my guitar tracks panned left and right to try and create some space in the mix and give everything its own place. In the past I have had a really hard time getting the bass and piano parts to get along. The low notes on the piano compete with the bass and jumble everything up. I have not been happy with my recent piano parts though and I may just skip it entirely for this project.

quote:

Originally posted by Ric:Also, you could try a compressor. In fact it could be the answer to your whole problem. A compressor set right will bring up the quieter parts and keep the bass from peaking. We laid down a couple of song, where live I had no problem hearing the G string, but when I recorded it, it dissappeared. When I tried recording it again and simply played the notes harder it made for unpleasant string noise. The compressor did the trick.

I have messed around with some of the different compression settings (GarageBand) and you are right, that does seem to help.

I really appreciate all the advice. There sure is a lot to recording, mixing, etc. It can be overwhelming!

Matt

You can get a sound pressure meter from radio shack. Think they go for $50 or lower. Make sure when you measure to have it sitting right where in between where your ears are going to be when listening.

The 85 applied to the whole mix, not just the bass signal.

When you have two instruments in the same frequency range like the low end of the piano and low notes on the bass you have two approaches you can go with, as far as EQ.

1. Do a subtractive EQ on the instrument that is masking the other. You may find that taking some bass end off a specific frequency hrtz on the piano makes your bass appear. This is usually the case as bass guitar is one of the easily masked instruments in a mix. Try a subtractive eq on the piano around 40 or 300 hrtz.

2. The other approach would be to up certain eq frequencies in the mids and highs of the bass. You really have to careful with adding eq as it's easy to make an instrument sound unnatural. And too much can cause a listeners ear to fatique, if it's overdone.

The way I mix now is that I get a basic pan...vocal/bass/kick and snare center, guitars 10-2, get the visual decibel levels all peaking about the same place and then mix the eq until I can hear the clarity I want from each instruments. Then I fine tune the actual levels and pan. This is all with compressor on the master and what ever individual channels need them, otherwise compressors change the mix if they are turned on afterwards.

Thanks Ric,
Sorry it has taken me a while to post back. I've been traveling. I really appreciate the help. I'm excited to get back home and try it. I'm pondering getting some different speakers to use as studio monitors. I do think that might help a lot.

I might try some more piano parts and see if I can put your advice to use to get the piano and the bass to cooperate. I haven't been satisfied at all with 1) the way the piano sounds and 2) my playing lately.

I've worked very hard at trying to get some very big, natural guitar parts, sometimes blending together 4 sources and I love the way my guitar sounds. I've even been using 2 mics when I record vocals. I run them both through my Pendulum SPS-1 and then out to different channels on my interface. This has resulted in very natural recordings IMO. The bass sounds fine in this mix but the piano (a Yamaha Clavinova) sounds very, very artificial to my ear when compared to the guitar and vocals.

My only options with the piano are to take a line out and go directly into my interface or run it through my Pendulum and try to help the sound along with some EQ but I really miss hearing the "room" around the instrument like I could if I were able to mic a piano.

I sure enjoy recording though and it seems like a process that could take years or even a lifetime to really nail.

Thanks again for all your help!
Matt

I find that if an instrument sounds good tone wise, but a bit unnatural because it's directly plugged in and recorded, a little bit of reverb can do the trick.

I try to imagine what the instrument would sound like if it were in an live environment. That is, how much reverb I would get back and how big the room would be. I usually go for a verb with just the slightest noticeable tail. Also, different rooms enhance certain frequencies, so to get a more natural sound, again you can mess with the EQ.

Ric,
With my piano, I also have the option of taking both a left and a right line out. Do you think it would help to send the left and the right to separate channels on my interface and then do some panning to create some space?

Also, I am considering some new speakers. I was told that a Schertler Unico and its matching extension speaker the Schertler Side would make wonderful studio monitors. I have been pondering the Unico anyway because I could use a small amp. I got a chance to briefly try one out yesterday and it sounded FANTASTIC! Do you think these would make good monitors?

Based on the specs on the websites, I would be able to hear much lower frequencies on the Schertlers vs. the Tapcos. The Schertler stuff isn't cheap and I'm sure I could get speakers that are better than the Tapcos without spending as much but I would have several uses for the Unico on its own and maybe uses for the Unico and the Side which is why I am pondering them.

Sorry for all the questions. I hear things in my head that I want to be able to reproduce when I record and I'm getting closer but I still feel like I have a long way to go!

Matt

Running left and right into the recorder and then panning 10 &2 or 11&1 or whatever space you are going for, will definately make the piano have more precensce. I do that with our rhythm guitars when we record. Basically when panning try and picture the band in front of you where they would be side to side.

As far as speakers, they don't have to be exepensive, just flat response. I got the cheapest ones that had a GC when I got my digital recorder. They cost me about $100 a piece I think. I have a pair of, "event tuned reference," speakers. The actual speakers are about the size of the average stereo speakers.

You want flat response, because you don't want a speaker set that colors the sound by adjusting frequencies in a complimentary way. If you mix on flat response speakers and it sounds good, it usually ends up sounding better on home stereo or in a car stereo.

Hi Matt,

I was bumping around the web and came across this.

Mixing With Headphones Vs. Mixing With Speakers

Thought of you and this discussion.

There are lots of references within the article.

Hope there is something there for you.

On an tangentially related note:

Wiek-at-Bose has done some great recordings taking the source from T1® Aux outputs at live sessions in Paris.

Wiek has provided the technical details and recordings. Please see:

Live Recording Using the T1® Aux Output - Recordings from Salon de la Musique Paris 2008

I know that your situation is different but I hope you will appreciate knowing how he set things up. I really enjoyed the recordings. I hope you do too.

When you mix down a song, compare it to a track from a commercial CD that is similar in style. When you get ear fatigue you'll want to turn the volume up while you are mixing. Don't. Take a break instead. And when you return, listen to the commercial CD and compare. Problems will usually jump out at you.

Be careful that you listen to the commercial CD at the same level and thru the same speakers and amp combination that you are mixing with. The idea is to get your ears used to what is good. This is why some mixing engineers bring their own speakers to a gig.

Cameron in Atlanta

Sorry for not posting back in a while. Thanks so much for all the info. ST, thanks for the links! Great stuff as always.

I traded in my Tapcos for a set of Schertler speakers and they sound fantastic! I solved the bass problem with a new set of strings and the bass parts are sounding great.

I'm leaving for 5 weeks on the road so the recording will be put on hold until I return. I am going to try and record some shows straight from the T1 and then maybe I won't have to worry about all of this mixing! :-)

Thanks again for all the advice.

Matt