How isolated is the L1 and B1 from the floor?

I have a regular gig (OMB Guitar, Vox) at a bar that has difficulties with the neighbors. If I turn up too loud, the nice old man calls and asks the bar to turn down. We like the guy and we hate to bother him late at night, but when I turn down to the level he's asking for, my sound just doesn't make it through the room or can't be heard over the Friday night din.

It's partly this situation that's drawn me to the L1 in the first place. I don't have one yet, but I'm planning to order my Model II when they become available. Being able to penetrate a dense crowd with clean, clear sound and fill the space with music is exactly what appeals to me about it. Especially if I can cover the room with a lower SPL. I already get great compliments on my sound and clarity, but this will make a world of difference.

Over the years I've tired a few other solutions with varying success: i.e. Using a fairly big PA (1200W) but turned down really low, using a very small acoustic amp(60W) as my PA, supported by an active satellite speaker on a stand to get the signal up over people's heads. I've also played often with the EQ and found that it's really the lows that create the problem.

That said, I do prefer a bright crisp tone, but I just don't feel I sound right without some lows. From what I've read here, using the Model II without the B1 seems to be undesirable. So I figure I'll get an Auralex GRAMMA to put under the B1... is that even necessary?

Any thoughts or suggestions are hugely appreciated.

Thanks,
Will

If you're not familiar with the GRAMMA: Auralex GRAMMA

Hi, Will. Lots of information here, as you've found by now I am sure. Welcome aboard.

When the Model II begins shipping, you won't even be able to purchase it without a B1, unless Bose changes its mind before then. That's how it stands now.

I would not be surprised in the least that once you get to using the L1 at this gig, you'll have no problems at all. And I bet you won't need to invest in the GRAMMA. The clarity and carry at lower volumes should take care of you, I would think.

You know what, though? This brings to mind an old thread where some neighbors through walls and across the street heard the band practicing through the L1 (or multiple L1's). Maybe somebody else will remember that one and find it. I don't know who posted originally.

Since the L1 has very little vertical component, that may help. Is the current issue with bass thump alone?

BBE

I'm a pretty percussive player, and I like a punchy acoustic guitar tone... and when I do dial down the bass, that doesn't seem to penetrate the walls. He doesn't call as often.

Incidentally, during my breaks the bar switches to their jukebox, which is noticeably louder than me, but with almost no bass. That doesn't seem to bother the old guy. My theory is also that their speakers are suspended from the ceiling, so very little vibration is carrying into the wall and without the bass, there's no thumping. On the other hand, I've got loudspeakers on stands, sound waves bouncing off the ceiling and vibrating down into the floor... plus a fuller sound with more punch...

I guess the answer is yes... I thump. So I wonder if isolating the B1 might help that.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Will O'Connor,

quote:

It's partly this situation that's drawn me to the L1 in the first place. I don't have one yet, but I'm planning to order my Model II when they become available. Being able to penetrate a dense crowd with clean, clear sound and fill the space with music is exactly what appeals to me about it. Especially if I can cover the room with a lower SPL. I already get great compliments on my sound and clarity, but this will make a world of difference.

Will, your desires have led you to the right place. It sounds like a dream come true, but the system really does accomplish everything you have outlined in the above comments.

One of the greatest bonuses is the fact that not just the undesirable tones bleed through to neighboring areas. It's not just muffled bass and drums that are heard through the walls. The music stays well mixed and clear when it is loud enough to go beyond the physical borders of a given room.

But as you mentioned, you will find yourself playing at much lower volumes. The patrons will find that they can easily hold conversations in the room without screaming at eachother, but yet the music is just everywhere, virtually unchanging, as you walk around the room.

Personally, I feel that the B1 bass modules work seamlessly with the system, and supply plenty of bass for most situations. They also provide a scalable solution; you can use as many as you need for a given situation. We use 4 systems for a 4-piece rock cover band, and we used to use a powered sub for the kick drum. We are much happier using 4 B1s and a Packlite power amp; we have way less problems with feedback, and the bass is much tighter and cleaner. This seems to have improved the clarity of our whole sound.

We sought out the system for the same reason you have; tone and clarity. Portability was a huge bonus also. You are obviously someone who truly cares about the sound you are putting out to your audience. It is so cool that with this system, what you are hearing is exactly what they are hearing. This provides for a great audience connection that one has to experience to truly appreciate.

I hope to see you here posting some gig reports with your new Model II. If you have any other concerns, there are a huge number of users here with a wealth of knowledge. Welcome to this community.

Best Wishes,
Jeff
www.theunmentionables.com

quote:

Originally posted by BabyBlueEyes:
Hi, Will. Lots of information here, as you've found by now I am sure. Welcome aboard.

When the Model II begins shipping, you won't even be able to purchase it without a B1, unless Bose changes its mind before then. That's how it stands now.


I would not be surprised in the least that once you get to using the L1 at this gig, you'll have no problems at all. And I bet you won't need to invest in the GRAMMA. The clarity and carry at lower volumes should take care of you, I would think.

You know what, though? This brings to mind an old thread where some neighbors through walls and across the street heard the band practicing through the L1 (or multiple L1's). Maybe somebody else will remember that one and find it. I don't know who posted originally.

Since the L1 has very little vertical component, that may help. Is the current issue with bass thump alone?

BBE

I believe you were refering to the problems I was having offending neighbors with my rock band, which uses two L1's.

I don't know if they gave up calling on us or the couple of things we did helped. This is what I did.

1. I moved the L1's so the backs of them were facing away from the gargage door, which is leaking the most sound out and facing the neighbor who called.

2. I walked across the street with a sound meter to see how loud it was. across the streed it barely reached 65, which well within the limits of the law. I mix songs at 85. Also the bass fell off rather quickly and I couldn't even hear it across the street.

3. I think the real problem was that we were using e drums and had them up loud in the mix because were were not used to them yet. The kick really kicks. So, we turned the drums down a bit and when it gets later dial out a little of the bass end from them.

So, far no more calls, but we will see.

It's my understanding though that high end frequencies are much easier to filter out by absorbtion through walls, it's usually the bass frequencies that travel through everything. So, if you pay special attention to them maybe you won't get the calls. Though the L1 is good at delivering more natural bass that is not over exxagerated.

Will,

As others have said so far, low frequencies will be the ones bothering the neighbor to the place where you are playing.

A product like the GRAMMA could potentially help decouple the bass producing B1's that much more. How much of a difference it makes depends very much on the internal construction of the building.

You may be fine just using the L1 - you will be at much lower volumes most likely. Maybe you could do a 'test run' before the gig and see if the fellow is still bothered? If so, then go with the GRAMMA.

I really appreciate neighbors who are nice about their noise complaints, so I always try to go the extra mile for them...

MikeZ

Thanks so much for all your comments and insight everyone... At this point I really can't wait to get rolling with a Model II. It really does sound like the perfect solution.

MikeZ, you couldn't be more right about this guy. He's a nice old man, caring for his middle-age down-syndrome son. We really want to do everything we can to make things a little easier for him....

Of course, I've also been dreaming about getting an L1 since they came out. The T1 really dropped my jaw and that's when I knew it was time. The idea that this might also improve things with the neighbors--and therefore also with the bar owner--is just the icing on the cake.

I hope that it's not going to be too long away!

Will, I've used the GRAMMA's for certain rooms to prevent or minimize transmission of bass frequencies thru hollow stages with much succes. I'm in agreement with the others here that feel the bass frequencies will be the problem. You may want to consider buying 2 GRAMMA's to accomodate the the radiator base and the B1 no matter which model you buy. This will provide a stable platform for the whole rig.

Thanks getrythm, putting the whole rig up on an isolation riser sounds like an awesome idea.

Does anybody know the footprint dimensions for the Model II, including the B1 tucked in close? The dimensions on the main site don't seem to include the swing-out stabilizers.

quote:

Originally posted by Will O'Connor:
Thanks getrythm, putting the whole rig up on an isolation riser sounds like an awesome idea.

Does anybody know the footprint dimensions for the Model II, including the B1 tucked in close? The dimensions on the main site don't seem to include the swing-out stabilizers.

Good question. Tape measure to the rescue!

With the legs out, and no B1 a model II is about 26" (66cm) wide.

With a single B1 tucked in, standing the tall way, the total system is now about 28"(71cm) wide.

With a B1's (up to four) lying on their side the system is now about 33"(84 cm) wide.

The B1's tucking in is a great space savings on a tight stage.

MikeZ

RE: Isolation.

Will, start with isolating just the B1. I think the gain from isolating the powerstand will be minimal. All the frequencies coming from the line array are above 180Hz .... these don't travel through walls nearly as well as the 40Hz-180Hz coming from the B1. Big isolation pads get heavy! I have 4 4'x4' isoloation pads I built (3/4" MDF) for drums in a recording studio and they are heavy!!

You can buy the material directly from Auralex and make you own custom fit GRAMMA if you are so inclined.

MikeZ

So, I found this: Auralex SubDude

It's 15x15, so it'll be a tight fit for the B1, but I imagine it would fit between the swing-out feet on the Model II and not cost me much more room.

I could lay the B1 flat on it, but it looks like the feet of the B1 are a few inches in from the front and back of the unit. Can anyone verify that they are less than 15" apart?

Obviously, I'm totally obsessing over my future Model II... but I don't know what to do with myself while I wait to place my order.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Will O'Connor,