I have had the bose system for quite a while now, and have been reading all the post on here about whether or not the system is a good FoH. It seems the collective view is that it is not what it was intended for so it isn't ideal or even good. But I disagree.

I have 4 systems, 2 classics and 2 MIIs. We tried the behind the band, separate musician in each, method. It didn't work very well and here is the biggest problems we had:

#1 it really isn't less to carry once you start using multiple systems. It is actually more pieces, though lighter at least indivdually.

#2 it takes up more space when using more systems.

#3 the biggest problem though is that it is simply too loud for us when turned up to the levels that clubs want. It sits at ear level and it is a brutal assault on the ears at high volumes.

Long and short of it, we went down to 2 systems with 4 B1s each and put them in front of us, with 2 floor wedges for us. Sounds wonderful.

Hi David,

I have to agree -- partly -- when we have a deep stage, I like the speakers behind, and each performer coming out of only one tower. I am also finding that two towers is enough.

example: providing sound with deep stage - Albany swing dance - Josh Fialkoff and J-Street In this venue, there is enough stage depth to let the towers fill the room with sound while also having the sound volume decay before it crosses the band. In this case, I don't cross-feed any signals - each instrument is only in one tower, and there are no monitor wedges.

Without stage depth, I like the towers just forward of the band, two towers, with a little of each towers signal in the opposite tower for easier monitoring. I try not to use the floor wedges.

example: Provided sound for Albany swing dance - Peter Davis & Don Young - Rock Around the Clock - no stage depth, two L1s forward and off to the sides In this example, we have wedges setup as well, Guitar wedge was unused. Piano wedge carried only the piano with no other signal. This clip shows how the band sounded up front where they are. This clip shows how well the guitar sounds on the opposite side of the stage, (guitar solo around time 2:40) . And here is the same band from farther back in the room (Evan MacDonald & Linda Leverock - demo dance)

I've also used two L1 Systems as a FOH (in front and to the sides of the performers) ... and haven't had to wish for monitors, either. I've also used 4 L1's in that same way, two on each side ... but I made sure that each mic & instrument were NOT coming out of both adjacent L1's. That latter situation was outdoors, where the extra volume was desired.

The only time some of the performers had trouble with 'monitoring' was when they were directly beside (in line with) the L1's. Once they moved a bit forward or back from the "parallel" position, they could hear fine.

quote:

Originally posted by David Turner:
I have had the bose system for quite a while now, and have been reading all the post on here about whether or not the system is a good FoH. It seems the collective view is that it is not what it was intended for so it isn't ideal or even good. But I disagree.

I have 4 systems, 2 classics and 2 MIIs. We tried the behind the band, separate musician in each, method. It didn't work very well and here is the biggest problems we had:

#1 it really isn't less to carry once you start using multiple systems. It is actually more pieces, though lighter at least indivdually.

#2 it takes up more space when using more systems.

#3 the biggest problem though is that it is simply too loud for us when turned up to the levels that clubs want. It sits at ear level and it is a brutal assault on the ears at high volumes.

Long and short of it, we went down to 2 systems with 4 B1s each and put them in front of us, with 2 floor wedges for us. Sounds wonderful.

I'm curious, what kind of band do you play in and are the drums acoustic?

The reason I ask is that I play in a rock/metal band and have never had a problem getting loud enough, even on short stages, and using them the prescribed way. If we want to crank them we simply put in ear plugs.

Hey Ric ,
What a very simple sensible suggestion . Although I have never had the L1 excessively loud , the need may arise , so I'm going to throw some ear plugs into my gig bag just in case . Thanks for the tip - J.D.

Well, wearing ear plugs kind of kills the whole idea "that the band hears what the audience hears."

I would rather wear PEMs. But then, again, why put the Bose behind?

Band is a top 40, we play just about everything except polka. Metal to Latin/hip hop.


I would find it cool to not use the wedges, but the two girls in the band said they needed wedges. Drummer is electric. Bass sequenced along with some fill and percussion. Guitar direct. Keys and 3 vocals.

The 2 wedges actually go behind me as a guitar cab would. The direct guitar sounds much, much better through these than the Bose. Some guitar goes through the Bose for spread. I feed some of the other instruments through these as well, but for ambience as much as anything. My vocals and the main vocalist go in the wedges a well.

The keyboards/vocals of my second girl go through a very small Mackie that sits on her keyboard. She can't "survive" without it.

Drummer has his own for his drums.


I really appreciate the responses.

Side note: I don't change on bigger stages as much for easy of consistency than anything.

David,

I think you're right, the L1 makes a great powered FOH speaker.

To me though, by going to monitors you're missing out on one of the benefits. Is it okay to miss out on a benefit, of course!

From my experience, when I play with monitors (the last time was in October, 2006) I feel disconnected from the band/music. But that means the monitor is doing it's job. To me that's what monitors are designed to do, create a mix just for you.

Now, do you want the audience to hear the monitor sound/mix? Nooooooo, of course not. Nor do you want them to hear the sound coming from the other monitor so we "cover" that sound with more volume out of the FOH L1's.

I think this is step one in the volume wars that can start. Sounds like your band is disciplined about not climbing in volume, but if you find the volume wars coming back it's probably because people "can't hear themselves" in spite of their being plenty of volume on stage. It probably means they can't hear themself in the mix and feel anxious when playing.

Not hearing is a byproduct of being sonically isolated from the rest of the band which is what a monitor is designed to do. Think about that for a minute ... That's why we encourage folks to try things without a monitor.

But, at the end of the day, you are correct, L1's make for one heck of a FOH speaker. Just ask the DJ's on this board who use 'em that way.

I hope that helps,
Steve

Hey Steve, I guess I agree and disagree a little.

Not sure when the Bose was behind us that our keyboardist heard well. I just don't think she could pick herself out well with the other player's systems going. I think a lot of it is her, because at lower volumes I loved it. But she is whiny. So, not sure the disconnect is an issue for her, as much as she really needs isolation.

My audience actually does hear some of my monitor mix as my monitors are behind me. Again, mostly for guitar which would be how a cab would sit as well. I add some Bass,Drum, Vocals in there so I get more of a band mix, but at least 70% of my guitar volume is through the monitors. In effect acting almost as the Bose for a point of source thing. I use 2 JBL wedges that run $2,500 a piece, so they just kill sound wise. The VP series.

Now I thought about using one or 2 of the classics behind me for the same purpose, but I still can't get a really good high gain sound through them. The eqing for Bose speakers has to be radically different on my guitar settings as opposed to a conventional speaker. Which doesn't work well when I have to play a place that does their own sound. Plus if the volume goes up then my head gets blown off because of the ear level of the L1. I even tried not using the top 1/2 of the stand which worked ok, but really with 2 classics and B1s more to carry and more stage space as opposed to the 2 wedges.

On an ideally deep stage I think the Bose are far better behind for the band. But even then I would use a FoH because of volume issues. And most of the time I really don't have that depth on stage. Beleive me it's not us that wants the volume up. We use electronic drums, sequenced Bass and direct (no amp) guitar for the very reason of keeping volume down. But every place we play it's "turn it up".

Biggest issue really is that if I use 4 systems for 4 people and the keyboardist thinks her's is too loud even though it's just her, and I have to turn her down, it jacks the whole mix. Plus again, it is a lot more stage space and pieces of equipment to carry. But that's not always all bad - as a few of the places I play I have to go up stair wells, which mean more trips, but I never could have carried my Mackie subs up those stairs!

I'm really surprised that your singers feel they need wedges. I'm a singer first and if I used the L1 for nothing else it would be main/monitor for my vocals. It is bar none the best thing I've ever heard for vocals as far as being able to hear myself and getting loud without feedback rejection (with the right mic and technique)

Is it possible the stage amps are masking the up front of the L1's and making it hard for the singers to hear themselves even through the L1's? When I used a traditional PA that was always a problem for me, the backline amps masking my wedge sound that is. We all go direct now with no amps, using pods.

I've also had about five different bands through them and every time a singer starts singing through it their eyes light up like they never heard themselves so clearly.


How many people are in your band, that are going through the 4 systems? Could I see a scetcher diagram of yoru set up somewhere?

It's 4 of us. One each. No amps. It's not that 3 of us weren't happy, we were. The one needs the isolation. Again though, for all of us the biggest problem is it is too loud for her/us when we have to turn up.

That's strange. I've never felt it's too loud compared to how it used to be on stage with backline amps and monitors.

When you, "crank it for a club," what are the gain setting and where are the master and channels at?

My gain on the Bose is noon. I use a separate mixer. But I think what is getting lost in translation is that sticking your head in front of a PA speaker is not good. And that is essentially what is happening.
I'm not blaming Bose, it really wasn't intended for a loud band on a small stage. I was merely commenting on how well what I am doing now works, and that the general mood of this forum is that it doesn't. Just an observation. I could have saved a lot of $$$ by not getting 2 extra systems if I could have figured this out sooner.


Four systems with 2 B1s each actually is a lot more equipment to haul than what I was doing before. Another point I was making, because it's not less equipment for an average band, at least piece count wise and trips to the car wise, I find it strange that everyone says it is. again though there are advantages to more pieces, especially that I can carry the Bose up stairs by myself. And they sound good too.
If I was a single player doing small coffe shops everything I have said wouldn't even come up.

Hi David,

just a few thougts on this topic:

• first, the L1 can work very well, like you use it in combination with wedges, - if the main issue is getting high volume.
  
• eventually raising the L1's about one feet and putting them behind you may result in more volume for the far audience (because of less absorbing and more direct sound) and less for you.
  
• for many audiences volume is corresponding with bass thump - and that could be achieved by one external powered subwoofer (in front of you) feeded by the "bass out" signals of all L1's mixed together. - This way you could reduce the number of B1's per L1 to 1 or even 0.
  
• I guess the wedges behind you are directed with a vertical angle of about 45° and if so they will throw to the nearby audience and up to the ceiling. - Audience will not have the same sound as you have on stage.
  
• if you feel the volume is too high in front of the L1, this will be true for the audience close to the L1 as well.

While you may achieve what you want, using the L1 like you do, you will lose some advantages you would have doing it the "BOSE intended" way:

• with one or two musicians per L1 the audience has a good eye/ear coupling because the sound is heard from the same direction as they see the musician, - and a very lively sound separation and clarity.
  
• people could really hear the same sound that you hear on stage - overall the space
  
• even in the case you have more pieces to bring in: setting them up, connecting to the corresponding sound source and sound check is much faster and easier, than it is for a PA system with additional monitor system (with it's own routing, setting etc.). And it could be done by every musician for himself.
  

Wolfgang

quote:

Originally posted by David Turner:
...Not sure when the Bose was behind us that our keyboardist heard well. I just don't think she could pick herself out well with the other player's systems going. ... she really needs isolation...

... the keyboardist thinks her's is too loud even though it's just her, ...

These two statements seem to be a bit inconsistent -- not that we humans are always consistent and rational!

Keyboard players who are used to acoustic pianos often take a while to adjust to "amplified keyboard" playing ... and may never prefer that in any way. Sitting at an acoustic piano wraps the player in an incredibly surrounding, 'in your body', enveloping sound that is hard to recreate with any amplified keyboard -- even with two L1's for a 'stereo' keyboard.

So, acoustic pianists can get used to hearing other instruments and vocals at a relatively soft level compared to their own acoustic sound ... and thus it can be a rather radical re-learning to hear the balance of the group as everyone else in the audience hears it. So this seems to support the "... she really needs isolation..." -- isolation from the sound of the rest of the group.

The second statement, "...her's is too loud..." -- it may come from the L1 being too close behind her, which is a rather different sound than comes from an acoustic piano. But it is a bit inconsistent with "she really needs isolation".

Story:
When I installed an electronic piano in a church one time, it was initially attached solely to the "house system". For me, having played pipe organs for many years, that wasn't a problem because I was used to having the sound *not* coming from where I was playing. However, "regular pianists" (those who had primarily only played acoustic pianos) didn't like it at all. Since the keyboard was behind a "modesty panel" anyway, the solution was to mount the new keyboard on the base of an old "home organ" cabinet; I cut off the upper organ keys/electronics section and just used the speaker in the lower part of the cabinet as the piano's monitor. That then made it satisfactory for most pianists. I adjusted the setting of the amp for that 'monitor' to reflect the volume in the 'house' speakers so that the pianist could adjust the volume control on the keyboard and that would be reflected in both the sound they heard and in the 'house' sound (the church did not have anyone 'run the sound').
End story.