The power output of each L1 (500 Watts) is more than plenty enough - believe me.
While you may think that going out of 4 units you would get the 2000 watts - you have to remember that you're still sharing those watts with the other instruments too. In order for you to even hear a "doubling / twice as loud" you'd need to be running it through a 5000 watt system for the guitar alone (using that as an example).
Follow SunDog's suggestions. It will work.
As far as controlling the volume mix of the vocals - you do it the same way you would on the mixer - using the remote, turn up the vocal channel until it reaches the level you want (or until it starts clipping - which at that time, you'd want to raise the master volume.
And it's the "signal out all instruments (including the vocals)" that is a part of the feedback problem - you have multiple sound sources feedback into multiple microphones.
we will try to use the L1 separate next show. One more thing that we worry about is the punchy sound of the bass will not be enough for the dance crowd. Would the crowd will block the sound dispersion and therefore the sound will not travel far engough to reach the people who is not dancing in the back of the restaurant?
what is the max distance of the sound level before it start to drop?
Hi desktopeditor, tivi, Tuan Nguyen,
Thanks for all your detailed information, and enthusiasm. You have already received great information and advice, and I wouldn't normally jump in on a thread like this, simply to repeat the advice that you have been given. But since you asked...
If I don't specifically acknowledge the individual contributions from the previous posts, it is for the sake of expediency. I'm not ignoring or discounting them, but just trying to speak clearly to you.
While I am writing up some ideas, let me encourage all of you to watch this video prepared by Bose.
The L1® Approach and the History of Amplification
and read this short article on See: Microphone Feedback.
I'll be back in a little while.
Keep in mind that the B1 modules were not designed for the big "THUMP THUMP THUMP" that you would get from an 18" 1200 Watt subwoofer playing the hip hop/techno music. Instead they were designed to give you a nice bass response, allowing you to turn up the volume without getting muddy.
That said, I believe that once you separate and use the Model I's as designed, you'll see an increase in your bass - simply because you'll be putting the Bass "heavy" instruments into the L1's that have the 4 Bass Modules, and the unit isn't being shared by 4 or more other instruments (and vocals).
I'm sure ST will come up with some other ideas as well.
And remember, mixing "in the air" with the remotes really is no different as mixing with the Mackie other than there are 4 individual controls (remotes) to use, instead of just one Mackie board.
Hi desktopeditor, tivi, Tuan Nguyen,
Can you clarify for me:
desktopeditor - do you have a Model II or a Compact? It sounds like you bought a Model II for your own use and then later the band got 3 Model Is and some B1s and a PackLite amp, but then someone else mentioned a Compact. So I'm not sure exactly what you have got.
Sorry to ask you to do this again, but can you tell me exactly what Bose equipment you have.
Thank you.This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,
Just going through the posts chronologically. When we were first talking about using your mixer for the band, we talked about how you could use the mixer AND direct any input to any one of four outputs (or as we thought at the time, any one of the four L1®s.
Whether or not you use your mixer, the principle still applies.
Each input (microphone or instrument) should be heard through only one L1®... the one closest to the input. More about this point in the next post.
Hi Tuan Nguyen,
As you know, dates are expressed differently depending on where you are in the world.
Do you mean:
July 6th 2012
June 7th 2012
thanks for your feed back. We used 3 L1M1 and 1 Compact for our show. We are in VA, so 7/6/12 is July 6, 2012. As far as I understood from your advice and Tom's advice is whether I use separate L1 for separat instrument is the same thing as using the Mackie mixer with SUB1, SUB2, SUB3, SUB4 output to each L1 respectively, right?
Here is why you want to run each input (and specifically each microphone) to only one L1®.
signal out all instrument simultaneously to all for L1
This will almost certainly raise the likelihood of feedback.
If I am understanding what you are doing (all microphones go to all L1®s), then it is going to be difficult to get much gain before feedback.
I understand that you would hope to just plug in the L1®s in the place of your PA speakers and monitors. It would be a familiar approach, but it is so far from the way that the L1®s were designed to be used, that as you now know - it can lead to problems.
Okay - that's called a PackLite amplifier. And it sounds like you are using it correctly.
This depends on the room and the music. If you can get 7-10 feet in front of the L1®s and the dance floor (25 x 25) is just in front of you, that should be fine.
Yes - I think that as you turn up, you are hitting the point of feedback and experiencing Multiple Source Interference as I mentioned above. This can make the vocals seem hollow, distant and indistinct, and can rob the low end of power.
Does that describe what you are hearing?
Okay - so all of this might sound like I am (we are all) telling you that you are doing something wrong. And really, it is not wrong to try to do something that has worked before, but it is going to be different with this new L1® equipment.
You could ask why some of these things have not been a problem in the past with other equipment.
The answer: The L1®s have wider dispersion than most conventional loudspeakers. This means that you will have more overlap of coverage. They are also very consistently accurate (comparing on L1® to another). This is VERY good if you have every sound source (e.g. microphone) coming through only one L1®, and this can be a problem when you have each sound source coming through more than one L1®.
Read more about that problem here: Can I use it as a PA (a conversation I had with the inventor of the L1 - Cliff-at-Bose).
More in a few minutes.
Thanks for the clarification on the date. I am glad we have some time to work on this before your next show.
But I'm leading up to a suggestion (like SunDog - I think he said it... and maybe Tom too), that you start out by running everything directly to the L1®s (skip the mixer completely). I know that you want to use the effects in the mixer, and that you probably want to have the centralized control. But as long as you are running everything through the mixer, you are not really hearing the preamps and the Presets in the L1®s as they were meant to be used.
I'd like to elaborate on that point later - but the main idea is to try the L1®s as they were meant to be used, and then add other things (effects or eq or control from the mixer) later. This is so you can decide as you change one thing at a time, if the difference is an improvement.
It doesn't really work this way. I know that Tom answered this point, but let me elaborate a little:
If you have two powered loudspeakers running the same signal, at the same volume, under ideal circumstances, you might get a +3 dB gain, as compared to one powered loudspeaker. That's not a big difference, but it could be audible. The problem is that doing this introduces the chance of Multiple Source Interference (as mentioned in my previous posts). And you lower your gain-before-feedback. So you even under ideal circumstances you might enjoy more volume, but practically speaking, if you are using microphones within range of the powered loudspeakers, you probably can't really make this work.
If you go from two powered loudspeakers to four powered loudspeakers - under ideal circumstances - you might get another +3 dB of gain. But you have the same limitations as when you went from one powered loudspeaker .... to two.
I mentioned ideal circumstances: Those would include having the powered loudspeakers close together (touching if possible) so they function as one unit. AND the ideal case would really only apply if you didn't have microphones in the system.
To read a more interesting discussion - particularly related to the math, theory, and distances - check out this discussion.
How much power...?
I think I am almost clear what need to be done now. Run the L1 separately is best solution for us. Just 2 more questions.
1) we must use Echo for our vocalist. does the echo has anything to do with feedback problem?
2) we normally record our show live from mixer tape out output. How can we record our show live now if using separate L1 and no mixer?
thanks ST for all good advice. Now would you please clarify something for us, we now have 3L1M1, 1 L1 compact and 10 B1 sub with packlite to support all 10 B1. From what I understand, each L1M1 has 2 inputs with preset [tonematch type built-in] and 2 inputs without preset and cannot control via remote control, only channels 1-2 can be control via remote control R1. So we have total of 6 input channels which could be adjust via remote control R1. In our band, we have 2 keyboards, 1 bass, 4 vocals, 1 guitar + 1 synthesizer for guitar, my vdrums i split out 4-6 channels. So we looking at at least 15 inputs. Any suggestion on how we hook this up to 3 L1M1 and 1 L1 compact. From other user, i'm not quite understand how to hook these up. Thanks.
If you want to hear how you really sounded - record with microphones.This message has been edited. Last edited by: ST,
thanks for advice ST.
we always use the guitar amp with microphone to mixer. Do we need it now since we now use the L1?
One of the hardest things to manage is stage volume - this is especially true when you have acoustic drums and electric guitar amps.
For context - I play electric guitar, and I over time I grew to appreciate that using a small combo amp, mic'd well, was a terrific way to get my tone. And that was great if the feature of the band was my guitar playing. But times have changed and these days, the feature of my shows is the vocals.
Okay - back to your question:
You can still put a mic on the guitar amp. AND If you use impedance matching transformer like the one pictured at the right, you might be able to get a strong enough signal to plug this directly into the L1® Channel 3 or 4. Depending on how loud everything else is, this might work fine. You can also use this trick to run a microphone into Compact Channel 2. Click the picture at the right for details on where to get one. They are cheap.
If your guitar amp has a line-out, (recording line out for example) I would try that first.
If your guitarist uses a guitar processor that has a recording line out (or an output intended to be run directly to a PA), I would try that instead of using the guitar amp. This will really help with managing the stage volume and the overall mix you hear on stage for monitoring.
These days, I use guitar processors run directly to the L1®. This makes everything simpler to set up and manage live. (One less microphone on stage to feed back, one less source of sound on the stage, one big step closer to being able to hear what others will hear in the audience).
We have several articles that you will probably find interesting.
Electric Guitar and the L1®
Digitech (RP series) and Line 6 (HD series) Guitar Amp Modelers sound phenomenal through L1 systems. As does the Digitech Bass Amp Modeler (BP series). If you get rid of the amp (which I think would be wise) - I would recommend substituting a modeler of some sort in the chain. It is a great match for the L1s.
AKA John O'Neil
Lead Vocals/R. Guitar for nine 8 central
PRS Series EG2
Ovation Custom Balladeer 1612
TC Helicon VoiceLive 2
Blue enCore 300 Condenser Mic
Thanks for replying tivi's question, I have some too
Some places we perform have limited space, so putting all 4L1 behind us and stand at least 3-7ft from them will be impossible. Can we switch position of L1 that connected to a particular instrument so that the distance between the two measured diagonally more than 3-7ft ?
sometime we have to play on CD for DJ, when CD is playing then only one L1 that the CD connected to will be heard, will it loud enough ? Can we connect the CD to 2 L1 that have 4B1 ? if yes, how ?
Will the Compact have enough power to run the Guitar and the guitar synthesizer ? if not we have to look for a 4th L1
Does the L1M1 have effects like echos ? like this clip (recorded live) http://youtu.be/JWwdsqigYVU
Can we use the Mackie just for 4 vocal mics that need effects and output to SUB1, 2, 3, 4, one to each of the L1 and the Compact ?
Thank you very much for the time you spend to help us
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