Hi Ken...please read my post in 'Ask Bose for Help'. I have bought 6 systems since 2005 (3 Classics, 2 M2's and 1 M1). I am part of several music groups and have helped several friends set up systems in their basements...mostly replacing their Mackies and JBLs. They all think that I should be a rep for Bose. I am a huge fan of the Classic and the T1 audio engine and my expectations were easily exceeded by both these products. However, the Model 2 is a different story. I am 'trying' very hard to like the sound but find the smoothness and the balanced tone of the Classic far superior to the M2. I sold my own Classic to a friend, bought the M2 and tried to make it sound 'less harsh' (Nathan was trying to help) but it still sounds 'tinny', harsh and causes me listener fatigue. I am not an engineer but I tried to read technical stuff to understand what you changed and I wonder if 'ported' versus 'unported' has something to do with it because the sound of the M2 towers seem separate from the B2 sub whereas the Classic blends beautifully with its sub. The sound from the M2 also feels more 'crowded' at high volumes compared to the 'Classic'. Almost like comparing a V6 engine to to V8.
I know that I am trying to explain the same thing in different ways but my dilemma is that now I am without a system (I returned the M2 to GC) and I wish I had not sold my Classic. I also feel hesitant to set up other friends with an M2 because I need to be convinced first.
We mostly use our systems with high quality tracks and sometimes with live Tabla, harmonium, or keyboards in venues ranging from large basements to conference halls. Audience size ranges from 50 to 250 people.
I feel like I now need to wait for your next model and hope that it sounds more like the Classic. BTW I also bought a L1 M1 last week for a friend after I did a music program at his house with my Classic. It worked so well that he wanted one. So we bought the M1 and although he is very happy with it, I would never buy it for myself because it sounded underpowered compared to the Classic. This reminds me of the Coke Classic versus the 'New' Coke. Maybe it is time to bring the Classic back. Personally, I would pay more for the Classic than the M2. It even looks like it costs more to manufacture with all the mixing options that are built in. In fact, when we have our music sessions, the extra inputs are life savers and are a must even with the T1 (2 singers, 1 CD player, 1 ipod, 1 tabla, 1 harmonium, 1 keyboard). Most basements cannot handle 2 L1 systems so we plug all this into the Classic and it sound amazing. It truly is a Classic! Although I have a bad back and would love a lighter system, I cannot compromise on the sound and will willingly pay more for a heavier system. It is all about the sound. Please bring the Classic back 'untouched' and I will pay you more than it originally sold for. Right now I am stuck without a system and don't know what to do. I have started looking for a used Classic.
I know I am venting but I know great sound ...and the Classic feels at home with other home theatre equipment that I own like Lexicon, Bryston, JBL, Monitor Audio and Revel.
Thanks for listening...

Here is the conversation with Nathan to which M. Patel refers above.

quote:

Originally posted by M. Patel in Ask Bose for Help
I bought the original Classic several years ago and have bought 4 more systems for friends since then. This was a product that exceeded my expectations. However, because of back problems, I just sold my Classic to a friend and bought the L! Model 2 last week from GC...and I really regret it. I am not a professional musician but I am a singer who sings on tracks and often with live musicians and I used the Classic for several performances (average 1 per month) and the sound was outstanding. Venue sizes vary from large basements to large halls holding around 200 people. Now I am trying hard to like the tone of the Model 2 and I wish it did not sound so harsh and overly bright. It causes listening fatigue compared to the full bodied, balanced tone of the Classic. I am comparing apples to apples using the same Tonematch with the same settings and the same music tracks. On the Classic, I am using Channel 3 at the recommended setting of 4 Thru the tone match and the sound is brilliant and louder. The sound from the towers blend perfectly with the Bass module and it sounds live and there is no listening fatigue. The Model 2 towers sound separate from the subwoofer and its excessive midrange drowns the low frequencies and makes it sound tinny, tubular etc. I barely hear the sub. I want to replicate the Classic sound on the Model 2. I tried to cut the midrange and the high frequency on the tone match by 5 db and it begins to sound smoother. In your lab tests did you try to see what settings on a tone match would make it sound like the Classic? IMHO the tone quality should never have been compromised. You had it right the first time. Just one sub is perfect on the Classic but on the M2 it feels like I need 2 subs to get the same low end sound as the classic. I regret selling my Classic and paying so much more for a compromised sound. Now I feel like I am stuck and am desperately trying to make this new system sound close to the classic. In quieter environments nothing beats the sweet sound of the Classic. I hope I don't have to return the M2 and look for a used Classic. As you can tell, I am trying hard to like the new sound of the M2 but I just can not. The openness and slight lowend from the classic tower is no longer there in the M2. I guess all I need to know is whether and how I can get the M2 to sound like the Classic. When Bose did A/B comparisons, wasn't the difference in tonal quality apparent?

quote:

Originally posted by Nathan P-at-Bose:
Dear M. Patel,

Thank you for posting to the L1 Forum and from calling L1 Support; as we spoke about over the phone we will work together to test and adjust the system for the sound you are looking to achieve. Please feel free to contact me directly as we move forward with this system.

Hi M. Patel,

Of course I am not Ken, but let me respond where I can from direct personal experience since you asked in your private message. First, here is a little background information so you can put my comments in context.

The Equipment:
I have owned a few Classics and Model IIs and a Compact. I have heard a few Model Is.

The Secondary Applications:
On occasion I have used my Classics and later the Model IIs for home theatre and home audio systems with various front-ends. I don't spend a lot of time listening this way, but when I have I have enjoyed it.

The Main Applications:
Performing live music - typically acoustic or electric guitar with vocals, solo, duos, bands. Occasionally I use the L1®s (whichever I have brought to a show) for background music.

quote:

Originally posted by M. Patel:
[...]
I am 'trying' very hard to like the sound but find the smoothness and the balanced tone of the Classic far superior to the M2. I sold my own Classic to a friend, bought the M2 and tried to make it sound 'less harsh' (Nathan was trying to help) but it still sounds 'tinny', harsh and causes me listener fatigue.

I have two Model IIs sitting in a room about 4 feet apart. One sounds great and one sounds somewhat midrange-y. I was sure that one of them was defective. After a great deal of swapping of components and cables, the issue was not the L1®s. It was the position in the room. I can put any of my L1®s in that particular spot and listen. Then if I move it a couple of feet away, it will sound different.

Now this is not scientific. It is just me telling you what I found in one room, and this has not turned out to be the case with all rooms. But it has led me to the idea that to compare two loudspeakers you have to listen to them in the same location. Otherwise the room acoustics become a variable.

I can't tell if you have been able to do comparisons this way.

The other thing I notice when listening to both the Classic and the Model II is that where you stand, relative to the front of the cylindrical radiator, makes a difference. The Classic has an area directly in front of it where I hear the mids and highs very well. Then as I move away from that area directly in front, the mids and highs soften as I move more to the sides. With the Model II, that softening of the mids and highs does not occur as I move to the sides.

quote:

I am not an engineer but I tried to read technical stuff to understand what you changed and I wonder if 'ported' versus 'unported' has something to do with it because the sound of the M2 towers seem separate from the B2 sub whereas the Classic blends beautifully with its sub.

The crossover on the Classic is at 180 Hz. The B1 handles the sound from 40 Hz to 180 Hz.
The crossover on the Model II is at 200 Hz. The B1 handles the sound from 40 Hz to 200 Hz.

For the things that I do with my L1®s I do not experience a profound difference in the sound when using one model or the others. I am usually positioned directly in front of my L1®s or if off to the side, only just slightly so.

quote:

The sound from the M2 also feels more 'crowded' at high volumes compared to the 'Classic'.

I don't think I am hearing what you are describing, but then it's pretty hard to write and read about sound isn't it.


I am sure you are hearing something. I wonder if it has to do with where you are in relation to the L1®s or perhaps if when making your comparisons the Model II was in a different position in the room than the Classic.

What do you think?

I think M Patel has made some interesting observations.

Some people hear but don't listen, some listen but can't hear. M Patel seems to be both listening and hearing very well.

With respect to the separation of bass from the remaining signal content coming from the L1 array;

One would not think a 20hz change in crossover would affect sound much, but somtimes for reasons I don't understand it can be drastic. I suspect it is related to both the bass response in a particular room and the liveliness of the space and how that affects the rest of the spectrum.

When using a line array type of speaker, that change is quite possibly more noticable than the same crossover difference in a conventional, point source speaker.

When using my Bose 402II system with a Panaray controller and MB4's, one can select from several different crossover frequencies. In my experience it was wise to audition those different settings in each new venue because, invariably one would sound better than the others.

I have noticed similar differences in my basement rehearsal space, but as I have written about many times, it is the strangest of all places I have played in, with respect to, what happens to the low frequencies??

M Patel stated, "I am comparing apples to apples using the same Tonematch with the same settings and the same music tracks."

The change in the Model II cylindrical radiator was a successful effort to give wider dispersion to a greater segment of the frequency range. I don't know any numbers but feel safe in saying highs and high mids, that same frequency range that one might associate with "harsh and overly bright". If one combines the wider dispersion of the highs with a space that might have close reflective walls we might come to the conclusion that we are hearing a competely different mix than previously played through the Classic, and if we think about it for a minute that would be a correct conclusion.

If, and this is a big if, M Patel's rehearsal space has some particular anomoly at 180hz to 200hz that could make the separation of the B1 and L1 even more noticable.

Sound in a room is different than the sound from a speaker. I think Bose understands that as well, if not better than most companies and builds speakers with that in mind.

I think the Model II is quite capable of creating the same performing and listening experience as the Classic, but not at the same settings. How much those settings and which ones to change would depend greatly on the sound characteristics of the room.

I recently posted about rehearsing over a period of several days with a Classic with remote, a Model II with T1, and a Compact, side by side. After several days, I put identical mics in each system and moved from one to the other, the response from each was so similar I doubted that I could identify each in a blind test.

In summary, In my opinion, there is no doubt that a Model II experience is different than the Classic. I believe that difference is more related to dispersion and room characteristics that to any difference in built in system eq. I suspect it is more noticeable in narrow, reflective spaces.

I hope M Patel has an opportunity to try the Model II again, perhaps in a different space. I feel confident that the same satisfaction found with the Classic is available with the Model II.

O..

Corrected spelling

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Oldghm,

Dear M. Patel,

Thank you for your support and in helping your fellow musicians understand the L1 systems. We are incredibly grateful for this.

I have to confess that I do not hear the differences you describe.

When we compare two loudspeakers -- something we did extensively in developing the L1 Model II and the L1 Compact because we wanted them to sound as close as possible to the L1 Classic and Model I -- we use a single-button switch that allows us to make instantaneous comparisons. We have found that it is the only way to hear differences.

This A/B technique also accentuates any differences. Things that are not audible to us with a five second pause between switching are suddenly audible when there's no pause.

Under these circumstances, and in a number of different rooms and listener positions I can only describe the differences between the L1 systems to be subtle. The biggest differences are off axis, where the Model II and Compact spread much more high freqeuncy sound than the Classic or Model I.

With all of this said, I can also tell you that over the years I've encountered a handful of situations where differences I had no occasion to experience became clear. I say this out of humility and a strong desire to avoid becoming set in my ways.

My suggestion is what you've already decided to pursue. You should be able to find a good-condition L1 Classic on craigslist or eBay or elsewhere.

With best regards,

Ken

Thank you ST, Oldghm and Ken for your support and explanations. It makes a lot of sense! Some things can only be experienced but cannot be explained...and I think I may simply be more prone to getting headaches (migraines) when certain midrange frequencies are more pronounced which creates a 'harsh' feeling to me.

ST, I tried out the L2 in the same spot as my Classic and my living room is very open (no walls between the living room, dining room, kitchen and the foyer). The ceiling height is 20 feet in the living room and 10 feet everywhere else. I think the fact that the Classic is a little more focussed may make it sound better for a singer (me) who is 5 feet away although the M2 may be better from the audience's perspective...especially in a noisy environment where the sound needs to cut through.
I would still like to know if someone has done tests comparing the M2 to the Classic, playing the same track thru a ToneMatch and determining that the M2 can produce the same 'tonal' sound if the mid and the high frequency setting is reduced by 'x' db ...or even a certain frequency on the parametric equalization is reduced.
I wish I had done more of these tests while I had both the units.
I had sent a 30 second music sample (uncompressed) of A.R.Rahmans track that has these small metal 'clacking' cups that distort heavily on the M2 and sound quite clean on the Classics. I don't know what to make of it. I would like to email the 30 second sample to any of you who could compare it on both the systems and tell me if I am simply hearing things or if I am right. Indian music is quite heavy in the midrange area and that might be the reason behind the 'listening fatigue' that I experience on the M2.
Thanks again for all your help.

Mahesh

I posted a reply several hours ago thanking all of you (ST, Oldhgm and Ken) for your valuable input and I added some more thoughts etc.. but I don't see that post here. I wonder what happened to it.
Anyway, your observations and comments are extremely valuable and that fact that you all took this issue so seriously and analyzed it the way you all did is truly amazing. I am truly grateful to all of you. Thanks again.

Mahesh

Hi Ken

I know many users of the different L1s have stated that they hear differences. I know that you have consistantly stated that they are the same, or as close as possible, or any difference is negligible, or something to that effect.

Since I trust your judgement and comments, yet I am certain I am hearing / feeling something different at times, I wonder, "What am I hearing, and what is Ken missing?"

So today the thought occured to me that, as performers we spend a great deal of time close, sometimes very close, to the L1s. In your listening experiences, are you close?

Have you done tests to compare the sound at the performers head level, to that of a seated audience member, with the performer at 5 feet and the audience at ten or twelve feet or more?

I agree with you that any difference is subtle, I also believe the difference is affected by the room. Many, if not most, uses find me close to at least one wall. Does your testing of live performance gear take into consideration the use of it in livingroom sized spaces?

The separation of the bass from the rest of the music content is something I have experienced many times, in my basement. Over the years I have learned where to put the B1s to get a more balanced and predictable response, but still on occasion I am taken aback when I set up to play in a venue, because the experience is different than the basement.

I have my Compact set up in my den here and the sound is different (to my ears) when I am sitting beside, or standing 10 feet away. With the unit on the floor and no extensions, then with the extensions in place, it is as I expect, a totally different sound in the 16 X 20 ft space.

Is this my perception, or my reality? (tough question ) Do I hear a difference because I expect to, or is it really there? Does the freespace around the unit and the walls that contain the space have a true and meaningful affect on the sound we hear?

O..

Hello M.Patel,
When I first purchased my Model II two years ago,I did compare it to my Classic which I still have.To my ears there was a definite difference between the two using my backtracks.Some backtracks are in MIDI format,the few others are karaoke wav files.The wav files have fiddle,backup vocals and guitar recorded with real instruments and voices, not digital like my midi files.Using the Classic with the included remote,I could hear all the voices and instruments almost lifelike on the wav files.When I would play them with my Model II using the T1,I lost alot of the lifelike sound.Backup vocals were very distant .I posted about it on this forum and Ken with Bose posted me back assuring me I could get the exact sound between the two by tweaking the EQ on the T1.I spent countless hours tweaking with no success.I used the Model II instead of my Classic because of the small footprint and weight difference.To my ears the Model II sounded great but not as full as the Classic.I now use my Bose Compact 95% of the time.Again to my ears,the Compact brings out better natural sound from my wav files.I can once again hear the backup vocals clearly.The key to this is ,trust your ears , do what sounds best to you.Making music should be fun - J.D.

Dear Mahesh,

quote:

these small metal 'clacking' cups that distort heavily on the M2

Hmm...I just don't get it: the Model II should not produce heavy distortion. Period. I just can't figure out what's going on.

Oldghm:

You bring up excellent, stimulating points. There are a few things that separate my listening experience from yours. First, I've not done as much listening close in (less than 5') than further away (10-20' I'd say). I may have some things to learn and when given the opportunity I will spend more time close in.

Still, I don't think that explains the big differences Mahesh is describing.

The room and nearby boundaries most definitely can change the sound. But does it change the sound of one model much differently than another? Not in my experience.

Finally, and this is really important -- you are playing you listen and I am not. I have long felt that when you are muscularity attached to a phenomenon, your experience is much different than if you passively experience the same thing. For example, the way I perceive music is much different when I am dancing to it than when I'm "just" listening. I think that musicians get a lot more information back from their environment when they're playing. Does that explain the differences you and Mahesh hear? Maybe some, but you both seem to be listening when you're not playing too and hearing these differences. Maybe the differences are imprinted when you are playing then easy to hear again when you're not?

Oh. Finally, finally, I am not a fussy listener. I tend to go for the gestalt and not want to spend a lot of time on the detail. I have to be sure that others here who are good listeners (I consider myself one) and enjoy the detail are included.

Ken

p.s. Your perception is your reality.

Thank you J. D. and sorry to hear that your ears are extra-sensitive like mine .

Thanks again Ken. I think the distortion (frequency) on the track that I emailed Nathan is simply exagerrated on the Model 2...and I say this because it sounds appropriately muted on the Classic and similarly so on some of the finest home and car systems that I played it on.

Being a singer, I think that the sound from the Classic, when I am singing 5 to 7 feet in front at a 30 degree angle, is so warm, full and focussed that it makes me sing better and sound better. With the M2, at the exact same spot, I feel a little disoriented as if I am singing through some sort of a 'surround sound' system and I suppose that affects my singing and perception of the M2 in general.

Anyway, thanks everyone. I hope to figure something out soon.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken-at-Bose:
The room and nearby boundaries most definitely can change the sound. But does it change the sound of one model much differently than another? Not in my experience.

The reason I bring this up, and think it is part of the phenomenon is;

The dispersion characteristics of the frequencies above 180hz to 200hz are different for the Classic/Model I, the Model II, and the Compact, but the dispersion of the low tones is basically the same.

Many of the comments from users suggest that the frequencies that seem to be accented in the Model II and the Compact are those that most benefit from the articulated array, thus are spread wider and in turn create more early reflections.

I guess a simple mind looks for a simple solution.

I should add that I find none of this troubling. The L1s are far and away more consistant day to day, space to space, than any other system I have ever used.

O..

quote:

Originally posted by M. Patel:
Being a singer, I think that the sound from the Classic, when I am singing 5 to 7 feet in front at a 30 degree angle, is so warm, full and focussed that it makes me sing better and sound better.

With the M2, at the exact same spot, I feel a little disoriented...

I am wondering if, when using a Classic, 30 degrees at 6 feet or so enough to get a performer out of the direct line of the frequency range that is causing the discomfort M. Patel is feeling with the Model II?

O..

Hi M. Patel,

Just an obvious thought...Tom Munch, and perhaps some others who also have multiple models, have mentioned that (I believe because of the array design), there is a "sweet spot" in FRONT of the M1 that is not in that location with a M2. Whether we all consider it "sweet" or not is not the point; the point is the "hot" spot is not the same on the M1 as the M2.

Let's say that in your case, the "sweet spot" is actually not sweet, but annoying. Perhaps if you changed your position, you could more closely duplicate what you hear with the M1; in other words, can you stand directly in front of the array, vs 30deg off axis? That way you're not standing in the brightest spot of the array...something Tom does not like, but you might find advantageous.

Just a thought...

I think Tres and O are really on to something. The Model I and Classic have a really nipple in the pattern in front that the Model II and Compact do not. This nipple, under some circumstances, can create a kind of "sweet spot" and maybe that's something you really like. The Model II is almost a little scary the way it bathes the air with very even tone. Maybe that could create the feeling of "away-ness" or "no-where ness"?

One thing is for sure: the Model II has the most consistent tonal sound field we've ever created. The Model I and Classic have someone more variation, including more high end right on axis.

Ken

After reading all these great posts, a part of me wants to give the Model 2 another shot and experiment with it using all the suggestions that you all have so kindly given....and part of me wants to go back to the Classic. Maybe I should toss a coin...

quote:

With the M2, at the exact same spot, I feel a little disoriented as if I am singing through some sort of a 'surround sound' system

I can see the *surround sound* feeling here.
The Model II does feel more encompassing, like the sound is all around.

I noticed that the first time I heard it, being A/B'd with a Classic.
The Model II tended to sound "stereo" to me in that the percussion parts seemed to come from both left and right.
It was like the speaker cabinet had disappeared, and the sound was all over the place.
I think that is a good thing for the listener, but it can be an adjustment for the singer.
Since going Model II, I've moved closer to the system and get my right ear in line with the articulated speaker.
It doesn't feel as *loud* in this position as the Classic did, but I'm used to it.

The guitarist is my trio says that the Classic is easier to *work* for his vocal.
He stands about 6' in front of and about 1' off from being centered in front of the tower, definitely in that *hotspot*.

I also think that it is a lot about expectations. When I originally bought the first Classic, I didn't expect much from it but was completely blown away when I heard it. Then years later, I read so much about the Model 2 and how much better it was.. that my expectations went up; and then I heard it and wasn't blown away like I expected to be. Maybe if I had never owned or heard the Classic, I might have been very impressed.
Now I have to find a coin with 'heads' on both sides.

M, I would try Model II again...a different unit.
Maybe there was something wrong with the first one.

My first Model II came with a dead bass amp in the power stand and sounded like a transistor radio.
Of course, support swapped it out overnight.

Thinking more about this...I have a nasal voice which may sound more nasal on the Model 2 and less so on the Classic. This may be another reason I feel that I don't like the sound. Maybe I don't like the way I sound on the Model2. Could it be boosting my nasal frequencies?
I use wireless Beta 58 and the Sennheiser 835 for my vocals, mostly at a flat setting on the Classic.
Anybody else with a nasal voice feel this way?
Which other mics should I try out?