We used the PAS on our second acoustic gig this weekend. We had a lot more room and were able to set up the proper distance from the PAS. BUT, my singer had feedback problems from the get go. His mic was pointed at the tower, so we moved the tower to the side of us. That helped a lot, but we still had a bit of feedback through the evening when the master volume was at 50%. Fortunately, we ran the system a bit lower than that because it was a sports bar at a Hilton hotel (actually a very nice gig that we play at least every other Saturday).

My singer uses a Shure SM58 and I have the preset for it on channel one. He plugs directly into the PAS. I watched the clip lite on the PAS and would see a hint of red every now and then, but rarely, so it appears I set the trim on the base correctly. I looked at the volume for ch 1 on the remote and I don't think I ever saw red. His volume on the remote started at noon, and he turned it up a couple of times. Which brings me to the issue other than feedback...

My singer (I do very little lead singing, though I sing a lot of harmonies) is used to hearing mostly his vocals in the monitor and less guitar than I would send out front in the mains. Now that we're hearing the mains mix, he thinks he's having trouble hearing himself and that my guitar gets too loud. Now I hear the mix when I'm not singing and his voice is loud and clear and on top of the guitar. A good mix. He hears it as the guitar being too loud because he's used to a different balance with less guitar in the monitors.

Any suggestions on how to deal with that?

My singer also mentioned that he finds that he has to sing differently. He's used to being able to sing pretty easy with our duo, but with the PAS he has to sing full out like he's singing with out full electric band. Maybe it's the whole "eat the mic" thing or maybe I'm mixing us differently. I'm not sure, but any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

On a final note, he has gone into the room while I do some solo stuff (and I really love the way the system sounds with just my voice and my guitar). He tells me that there is much more of a volume drop off than we expected based on the advertisements and what I've read here. What should we realistically expect?

Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by DavidE2:
He tells me that there is much more of a volume drop off than we expected based on the advertisements and what I've read here. What should we realistically expect?

Thanks!

You should expect to see folks in your audience patting their feet in time to your music. You should expect to see faces looking back at you from the farthest corners. You should expect that people at the bar will turn their stools around to watch and enjoy your music. You should expect that if it sounds good to you it will sound good to them.

It may take a little time for your lead singer to feel completely comfortable with the PAS. It will show up every thing you do, right or wrong. A singer with a good ear will always hear things he could improve on, and continued use of the PAS will make one a better singer or player, simply because you hear yourself better.

Keep the mic pointed up a little, and maybe try preset 04 if the feedback persists.

Encourage the singer to get "his own" PAS.

Oldghm

Hi DavidE2

quote:

Now that we're hearing the mains mix, he thinks he's having trouble hearing himself and that my guitar gets too loud. Now I hear the mix when I'm not singing and his voice is loud and clear and on top of the guitar. A good mix. He hears it as the guitar being too loud because he's used to a different balance with less guitar in the monitors.

This is completely understandable and will sort itself out in (what is usually a very short) time. The same is true about the feeling that he has to work harder for his vocal. It will take a little time for him to recalibrate his hearing. Up until now, he has had to "trust" that even though not loud in the monitor, his Guitar was loud enough. He gets to learn to trust that what he is hearing is a actually more realistic, and that it is working.

I had to go back and check - you and your vocalist are sharing one System, and while we've done that with our duo, it is just so much nicer for each of us to have our own. We're sort of a the mindset that if the stage is two small for two Systems, the stage is too small for us. Seriously, we are talking about only 26" x 26" (cause if it's tight we'll put the B1s on the Powerstands).

We have played in spaces so tight that we could turn around and touch the head of the Guitar to the L1. So that's tight, but we were able to get enough volume without feedback to make it work.

So, aim the mics up over the top of the L1 and slightly off axis. Here's how we do it.



Try presets #03 and #04 if the feedback persists. You can also try rolling off the high frequencies just a little on the Remote.

ST

Edit: Oldghm is did it again. My hands aren't working very well today and my typing is really slow.

Well, I'm not buying a second system and he doesn't have the money. So, that's not going to happen.

This system should be more than capable of handling two vocals and one guitar (I'm the guitar player, not him).

I did roll off some highs on his mic and that helped, of course.

I thought about pointing the mic up over the top of the L1, but that won't work. He's not playing an instrument, so he often has the mic on the stand, but in his hands (unless he's playing tambourine). His mic angle isn't going to change.

We have some full band gigs next week (we hire out sound for that) but we'll be acoustic in the same venue the next few Saturdays and I'll try some different L1 placements.

quote:

You should expect to see folks in your audience patting their feet in time to your music. You should expect to see faces looking back at you from the farthest corners. You should expect that people at the bar will turn their stools around to watch and enjoy your music. You should expect that if it sounds good to you it will sound good to them.

I definitely saw this from the tables and at the far ends of the bar stools.

DavidE2,

Change is hard. Especially when it's not your decision. I think you've got good advice here. You and he are going through the same cycle thousands of owners have gone through. This is different; it may take a gig or two to become "normal".

If you percervere you will find the benefits that not only Bose, but all these passionate owners, are talking about. It's there for the taking ...

Best of luck and thanks for letting us try and help,

Steve

Despite the issues, he really does like the system and said it sounded great in the room when I played solo.

quote:

Originally posted by DavidE2:

This system should be more than capable of handling two vocals and one guitar

His mic angle isn't going to change.

David you are right, This System is more than capable of handling two vocals and one guitar. My suggestion for the singer to get his own PAS was in the spirit of "if he wants to control his own level, get his own system", and I mean that in a friendly way.

To get the most from the Personalized Amplification System, one does need to change, if they have developed habits that show themselves with this new and revealing technology.

For example, I have seen singers who hold a mic in their hands, carelessly point the mic in many different directions during instrumental parts of a song. When using the PAS one has to be aware of the L1, and avoid placing the mic directly in line with it.

The changes or adaptions one needs to make to get the most from their new Bose PAS are usually minor, but pay off big dividends with trouble free performances.

Keep the forum up to date with gig reports, it is always interesting to see new users make adjustments and become completely comfortable with their PAS.

Oldghm

I agree with you that 2 vocals and a guitar certainly are NOT taxing the L1 system. My 3pc band rehearses thru one and I'm confident we could play a gig that way, bass, guitar, drums and 3 vocal.

I've seen posts from someone in your neck of the woods who might be willing to come to an acoustic show and bring another L1. I sure would if I were closer.

I'll look around and see if I can find who that was.

You really need to see just what difference it might make.

Guy Hufstetler, Uniontown

Dr Blues, Athens

blu, Cleveland

Harry, Dayton

shdixon, Columbus <---!

and this is just the first three pages of members. To look for yourself, go to top of page, click on GO, and Member Directory.

You could private message one of these guys and see if they could help. I imagine most anyone on here would be glad to.

I appreciate all the suggestions. But even having someone bring another PAS to the gig to see what the difference would be wouldn't make any difference unless it will cough up $2k in cash for the singer! ;-)

Hi:

quote:

"This system should be more than capable of handling two vocals and one guitar...

...His mic angle isn't going to change."

I use my PAS for much the same as you do, I believe. We normally play two guitars and one vocal, with an occasional back-up vocal, when the other guy's wife is able to show up, etc. We have no problems getting the signals in and being able to properly hear the various signals, etc.

As for the microphone angle, I'm in the same boat as you. The other guy, who is the lead singer, won't adopt that microphone angle either. So, what has helped us is to angle the microphone away from the speaker tower, thus: Mike's microphone stand is usually to the right of the speaker tower. We place the microphone stand a couple of feet to the right, and a couple of feet in front of the speaker tower, then pivot the microphone stand so the cable end of the microphone is facing at a 45 degree angle toward the left-rear of the room (but still angled down in the traditional manner). This way the buisness end of the microphone is angled away from the speaker tower. Although the microphone is angled at about 45 degrees, Mike doesn't have to stand at a 45 degree angle if he doensn't want to. He can still sing into the microphone by standing facing straight out, etc. He just steps a few inches to the right of the microphone stand, etc.

I hope this has made sense. Anyway, it does allow us to keep the feedback at bay. We play in some horrendous conditions with respect to what there is for available space between us and the PAS, and we do not have feedback issues at all, except for a minor issue during first set-up, and we're getting better at eliminating that now!. And the PAS is as loud as we'd ever want it to be. Any louder and we'd be coming home deaf!

I've also thought about two systems but, honestly, I'm not sure where we'd put the other one in many of the places we play...there simply isn't the space! But we're happy with the sound we get from one PAS so it's not an issue.

Good luck,

Stu

edit: Mike's microphone stand is on the right, not on the left, as I'd originally stated.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: StuartD,

You know, this whole thread addesses the issue of change. You have a singer who is used to a mix in the monitors that no one ever heard except for him. It was artificial and he had no idea of what anyone else in the room was hearing. He could have been happy with that or not, I don't know. It reminds me of a system we were using in church that was a heaphone monitor mix where everyone got there own control knobs for their ears. (Some guys would completly turn down any musicians that they didn't want to hear, therefore severing the communication.)
Now add the bose. Suddenly the mix you hear has to be balanced just like in the real world. You have to change. You can't expect your own instrument to be the loudest unless that would be how it was mixed on a CD. But there may be something you could do.
If you had another bose system, that person would then be able to hear themselves better, due to the fact that the system would be closer to them, and their sound would be coming from a different direction. Too much money right now? Ok, get a little powered monitor and take a send out of the bose channel and use that for more volume. Singers are different creatures in that they can hurt themselves very easily if they can't get the volume that they need so that they can sing relaxed. I know that this applies to every instrumentalist too, but singers can rapidly burn out on the gig too quickly.
Given the chance, I'll bet that you could wean yourself off of the added monitor all by yourself. You just have to give it time.
Twenty years ago, I saw a singer/pianist in a Holiday Inn that was using a cheap, bad PA that had a huge boost in the high end and a non-existant low end. She ended up buying a new system and when I saw her again the very next week, she was getting the same sound as her old system by rolling off the lows and boosting the highs until it was where she was used to sounding. I never got the chance to hear her again, but I'll bet she eventually adapted... over TIME.

c-hizer,

Great input! You reminded me of a story Ken-at-Bose tells about "hi fi sound" exploration. It was the worlds fair in the mid 1900's and RCA though people would want better sound performance so they set up a test. A speaker, music and dails to tweak the sound.

Oddly enough the majority of people tweaked the sound to a playback that was clearly NOT hi fidelity so RCA concluded, people don't get/want hi fidelity sound.

Well, the long of it is that they did, but they were used to the sound of a single 4" speaker (all mids) and thought that's what it's "supposed" to sound like.

"Hi Fi" eventually won of course, but clearly you're right. Change can be hard.

Steve

Using the PAS this Saturday should be interesting after two nights of full band, stupid loud p.a. I can't seem to get people to turn down!

quote:

I can't seem to get people to turn down!

It seems that some never will. I went thru a period last spring in a 4pc classic rock band, and had the same problem. I joined them using their 3-tier (we used my L1 at rehearsals and they loved it). I later bought another system and we began using them out live. They loved the simplicity and the nice monitoring, but the guitarist wanted to "rock out" at his old levels and it just didn't work (for me...too loud, had to use in-ears).

I found more like minded individuals to play with and we now enjoy a nice volume. Not suggesting you leave the band, but it's what I had to do and worked for me.

I was standing right next to the drummer last night, so that made it tough. Plus the sound guy ran one monitor mix and had the lead singer's voice louder than I've ever heard a monitor before (of course the singer loved it...).

To keep my volume under control, I'm using a VoxAC15 that isn't even close to 1/2 way up. But my sound cuts and I side wash, so we all hear it great.