I played my second gig with the pas and I would like to know other peoples set up as I am not used to monitors as my PA of 4 802s were in front of me with keyboard guitar and two vocals all in the mixer.I learned over the years to play without monitors.Now I have the pas I feel this sound coming from my back is too loud for me but not out front.I still don't know if the pas is 4 or 5 feet from you in two halls one bigger than the other how you know the over all volume? as it is still the same distance from you.I found I had to move it in front of me to get feedback stopped and get my ears back to normal.

Hi iain,

Tell us a bit more about the kinds of music you are playing and kinds of venues you are playing.

I can relate to the sense that stage volume is "too loud". It may well be, considering that the volume level decay over distance is much less with the Bose® so you *can* play at lower stage volume and still generate appropriate volume in the audience.

As I was getting used to my new Bose® systems, I used a Sound Pressure Level meter to develop a sense of stage volume compared to audience perception.

I have found the settings on my units that reliably produce consistent, repeatable outcomes and have learned to trust these.

On the other hand, if you are comfortable with the units in front of you (or to the side), then by all means - work that way. These units sound remarkably clear (albeit not as loud) from behind.

I am guessing that with your old system, you developed a pretty good idea of what settings produced appropriate results.

The Sound Pressure Level Meter approach can flatten the learning curve and get you feeling confident pretty quickly. This is the one I use (I have no affiliation with Radio Shack).

Once you have a good sense of how to relate your settings on your instruments and the units to the volume "out front" you can relax and enjoy the music.

Thank you for your response I would need two meters (one for each ear)I really wanted to know if having the pas in front or the side defeats the purpose?

ST on Saturday I played to 200 people at a dance
but in most cases its about 100 but always dancing so people are moving about all the time
so I think this might alter the sound as the dance floor is usually at the front of the stage.I want this system to work as I can't believe how easy it is to set up and lift.
Is it too good to be true?

iain,

One purpose of having the L1 behind you is to keep you and the audience in the same soundfield, if you stay within 6 or 8 ft of the L1 that should not be too big a problem. The audience may not see you where they hear you if you move too far to the side or behind the L1 and that could work against you.

As far as volume goes, if it is loud enough that you are comfortable with it it should be loud enough for your audience, I don't think it is neccessary to hurt yourself with loud volume from the L1.

What is causing the feedback? vocal mic? or instrument?...............Oldghm

Oldghm
If it's at the side of you I will be hearing the same sound as someone who is sitting at the side does that make sense?
If it's the same sound give of take a few db you could screw it to the roof,have it at the back of the hall anywhere bar your bum!!

Iain,

I have had the best luck playing to the side of and slightly in front of the PAS.

If you stand directly in front of the tower, you will block the sound to anyone on the other side of you from the PAS. Think of it this way, if you can't see it, you won't hear it.
This is especially true of people who are seated at tables. It is commonly referred to on this forum as a "sound shadow" and it is something you need to think about each time you set up. This is not a conventional horn on a stand where you can put it overhead and throw the length of the room. With lots of people dancing in front of the system, you may want to consider putting a 12" or 18" riser under the base and then shimming the back corners to tilt it forward a few degrees. Sounds subtle but it makes a big difference.

Sarkis

Thank you for your response how far away were you to the PAS did you think it was loud any feed back?have you tried it in any other positions(no pun intended)

I use a wireless haedset, so feedback is not an issue. Depending upon the venue, I perform anywhere from 2 feet to 20 feet away from the PAS. We have made a cable for the connection and taken the LS1's off the base with some pretty crazy results. Think audio light-sabre.

iain,

It is true that the sound is spread more evenly over a wider area with the L1 than with a conventional speaker, but the L1 is still the percieved source of the sound.

Unlike Sarkis who is working with two PS1/L1's, it is my understanding that you are working with one, as designed. That means that if you move 8, 10, 12 feet to the side at least part of the audience will see you at one place and hear you at another.

My experience so far suggests that, if you move away from the mic while performing, to keep volume high enough and feedback not a problem, the mic needs to be at least 6 ft in front of and just slightly off axis of the L1. This will vary depending on your mic and EQ settings, but if you are trying to work closer than 6 ft, I don't think you will be able to move away from the mic.

I also believe the shadow effect is a non issue if you are 6 ft or so in front of the L1, unfortunatly many venues don't give us that option. It takes a stage just over 8 ft deep front to back to get the neccessary 6 ft between the mic and the L1. I think the shadow effect as discussed on the forum pertains more to multiple PAS' with mutiple players on stage blocking each other, not their audience.

If we could tie it to our bum that certainly would be portable and we wouldn't have to be concerned about perception of sound source, but I doubt if our ears would ever be normal after one show like that.

Oldghm

quote:

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Originally posted by Oldghm:
Unlike Sarkis who is working with two PS1/L1's, it is my understanding that you are working with one, as designed.

I also believe the shadow effect is a non issue if you are 6 ft or so in front of the L1, unfortunatly many venues don't give us that option. It takes a stage just over 8 ft deep front to back to get the neccessary 6 ft between the mic and the L1. I think the shadow effect as discussed on the forum pertains more to multiple PAS' with mutiple players on stage blocking each other, not their audience.
Oldghm

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Hey Oldghm,

I often use one PAS on my smaller shows.

I have noticed the sound shadow at many distances. I use a wireless guitar and vocal, so I am often 50 feet or more from the PAS with people walking between the PAS and me. The sound shadow is quite pronounced at this distance.

Sarkis, and others,

I am going to make a statement here based on an assumption on my part, if I am wrong I hope the Bose guys will correct me because I would like to see in writing their response.

The graphs in the FAQS section show what to expect in the way of volume level in a rectangle approximately 11 meters deep by 14 meters wide. My assumption is, that is the optimal size or close to the optimal size venue for the PAS.

I am well aware of the many accolades placed on the PAS for outdoor performance that stated it is a clear sound much much farther away than that, but my personal experience outside suggest that even though it is clear the quality takes a real drop when you get beyond 15 yards or so. I haven't done what you have done i.e. work wireless 50 ft away but in MY opinion that is beyond the OPTIMAL distance and I would expect the sound to be less than desirable. Clear and clean perhaps but not the full range music sound one would get 20 feet closer.

I wouldn't argue with you over what you hear or percieve because I'm not sure I trust all my impressions about the PAS yet.

It seems to me the the radiation properties of the L1 create reflections like I have never heard with conventional speakers, in the full frequency spectrum. I believe that those reflections are one reason you don't need reverb. Even though you don't have as much reflection off the ceiling or floor, there is a lot more off the walls and for me anyway I am constantly being surprised by something that I hear that just isn't right. Sometimes it's timing sometimes it's tone and sometimes it's volume, but I THINK now that all of it is related to reflections.

Yes if you are 50 feet away and somebody walks across in close proximaty to the L1 you probably can hear a difference, but, if you were working in front of the L1 the people at 50 feet would still hear a reasonable representation of what you are doing.

Just my opinion........Oldghm

I don't believe the graph room size was created in an "optimal" way, but more a convenient way.

I've not spent a lot of time outdoors listening from far away (only when taking breaks on gigs) and in my opinion the L1 performs better than any conventional system for "throw" and sound quality at distance.

I have never done an A-B test or taken any measurements, which is the best way to really test/decide (your ears will trick you) but, for what its worth, that's been my experience.

Steve,

Thanks for the reply. At my recent outdoor experience the host had two 4 wheelers for guests to putter around on and check out the farm. Some commented to me that they could hear and understand from nearly 300 yards away, but I don't consider that a musical experience, I certainly wouldn't attempt to entertain an audience, that extended much beyond 20 yards away, with the PAS. I suppose that idea could change if I were using an 18" sub like Sarkis or in a ensemble with 3 or 4 PAS' and true full spectrum sound.

In the small town where I live the court house square is about 15 average city blocks away, as the crow flies. Sometimes on summer holidays when there is music on main street I can hear voices, kick drum, bass lines and lead guitar pretty clear at my house but I don't consider that a musical experience either.

What would you consider the optimal size venue in dimensions vs. capacity.

The club where I play on Saturday nights has a city mandated capacity of 270 and the stage and the main public seating area is smaller than 11 x 14 meters. This does include the back bar area but not the hallways to restrooms, offices, storage etc.

Can one safely assume that optimal size might be different for 1 PAS vs 2, 3, or more?

Would you care to comment on the shadow issue? I thought that I had read somewhere in the forum that your research indicated it wasn't a significant loss to the audience when the performer was X? ft in front of the L1.

Thanks Oldghm