Maybe this is a crazy idea but...Has anyone ever thought that an external cable and base scheme to shorten the radiators would be a good idea?
I have quite a few gigs in low ceiling stages. I've tried using just the one radiator with the dummy plug at these venues but the sound isn't quite the same and I struggle with the EQing too much.
I have two L1 modII/B1 units and use another brand mixer.
It seems to me that if you had a speaker extension cable and a modest base for each remote radiator that that would cure this problem once and for all. Then each radiator piece would stand next to each other for these short ceiling gigs. Is something like this available anywhere? What do you guys think?
Not a crazy idea. It has been talked about and yes, even done a time or two. Unfortunately, the practice is not supported by Bose. You are on your own to source the pcs, and parts neccessary to accomplish your goal.
Todays crazy society makes it near impossible for a company to assume the risk of assisting a customer in using equipment in a manner it was not designed for.
That being said, a cable to connect the two halves together and a couple of brackets that would attach to the dovetail on the back of the L1 sections to hold them side by side would not be too great of a task for an enterprising individual.
Well, Thanks Oldghm, always good to know I'm not crazy :-)
So...has anyone worked this out out there?
I guess you'd need to find the two mating connectors and wire them point to point. Then some kind of makeshift stand for the top radiator to keep it steady on the floor. Probably make that out of wood or pvc or something. Looks like finding those connectors would be the key to this project.
Anyone know how or where to obtain a couple sets?????
The connectors are standard Molex connectors (albeit a ba-gillion variations are available).
Something to keep in mind, however:
The "sound" of the full-size L1 column is heavily dependent on the physics of that ~6' linear array of speakers. When you cut the column in half, you change the "physics" of that line-array ... and thus the sound quality.
When you put the two ~3' halves side-by-side, you will NOT get the same sound characteristics that you get with the 6' column. In fact, I'd venture to say that you wouldn't make much difference in the "sound quality" at all -- you'd just be able to get more maximum volume (because there are twice as many speakers).
It's sort of like using one L1 vs. two: The sound quality doesn't change; you can just get louder overall (if necessary). The same thing with two "half-L1's" -- the sound quality won't change, it'll just be able to get louder.
I'd probably put the effort into developing yourself some custom T1 scenes where you use the zEQ and ParaEQ to try to get the "half-column" configuration to sound as good as possible.
Now -- it might be nice to get some recommended "starting points" for what to adjust when going to a "half-column" configuration from those who know the innards of the L1 behavior, but since you have two Systems, you could set up an A/B (full vs. half) comparison in your practice area and switch between the two as you tweak to get the "half" to sound as much like the "full" as possible --- particularly if you have two T1's. (If only one T1, use the AUX for the "full" and MASTER for the "half".) Start by matching the volume first, then tweak the tone settings (zEQ) on the MASTER to match the quality as best you can, and then, if necessary, try some paraEQ to fine-tune the sound even more (probably using a broad width, rather than a narrow width) ... recognizing you might want to reserve the paraEQ to deal with a "problem frequency" in the venue rather than for overall "tone quality" adjustments.
I'd also use something like a keyboard, where the "normal" sound is good with a "flat" EQ, rather than confusing things with custom ToneMatch and other "normal" zEQ and ParaEQ settings when figuring this out. Why? Because you then have to apply ("add") those "half-column" adjustments to any other "normal" adjustment you make for any instrument or mic that you've already figured out with the "full" column. For instance (pure conjecture), let's say you find that you need a +9db bump to the mid-range zEQ to get close to the "full-size" sound ... as well as turning the Master volume up by "one-hour" (clock-face). You then need to add that +9db mid-range to each channel on the T1. Let's assume, further, that on a mic channel you had knocked the midEQ back by -3db ... you'd now bump it up to +6.
This is where scenes can be REAL helpful ... if you use a lot of scenes in one performance, you might have to unload (save to your computer) the current scenes and swap them (reload the T1) with the "half-column" set of scenes before you head to that particular gig.
Thank you, Dan, for that very helpful info. On the road, this Winter season, it's difficult, unfortunately, to find a practice area. I normally am only able to rehearse with a small keyboard and headphones in my RV between gigs.
A strategy as you've so nicely written for me is what I'll have to work on when my touring is done.
Thanks again, Michael Shaw
Another issue that must be dealt with if the L1 is used in a short configuration is, ..... the ears of the audience need to be within the height of the 1/2 column. While not exactly the same, the characteristics of the 1/2 L1 should be very similar to the MA12.
Good point! A table could be used (if it doesn't make the 1/2 column too tall) ... or an adjustable table -- or a table designed for pre-school/kindergarten (which are usually quite sturdy!).
Would something like a sturdy speaker stand work? You'd have to fabricate something to make the fit to hold it. But placing the upper radiator there and only bring down the radiator as low as necessary for the ceiling maybe...and place close and to the side of the bottom radiator??? How'd that be?
Another thought is, if you went and did something like this... would placing the upper radiator upside down make a big difference?
And, probably not but(since it might be relevant)...laying it horizontally.
Any thoughts on this?
Subject to actually experimenting with things, I don't think you will get very good results if you lay the Cylindrical Radiator® sideways. You will end up projecting the sound up and down in a relatively narrow horizontal beam (probably about the width of the Cylindrical Radiator® ).
Can't speak to the physical setup things. I'm just not mechanically inclined enough be able to think that one through.
Yeah, wasn't thinking about that...but, you're right, the dispersion would really be bad horizontally.
Just for the sake of curiosity though, would there be any difference if the radiators (either)were upside down vertically? OK, I know...dumb question...but not being on the design team...and just a user...I'd still like to know.
I think you are just going to have to try it out both ways (right side up / down).
I looked at the manual for the Bose Panaray MA12 and MA12EX (close cousins to the Cylindrical Radiator®s on our L1®s).
I didn't see any specific instructions suggesting that things had to be right side up (logo right side up).
Anyway - I don't think that anyone at Bose can comment on this because it is an unsupported application (in so many ways).
How's your German?
I found a non-Bose product online (Switzerland) that might give you some ideas. I don't know anything about this except what I can see in the picture (and, that it's not produced by Bose)
Look at the 7th item on this page.
I couldn't locate this company either. Looks hard to imagine that that wedge shaped piece could hold up that much weight. Not to mention the lower radiator toppling over. But it is interesting. Thanks.
Actually, that device looks pretty decently designed (to my engineering eye). It looks like it uses the bayonet already know to be more than sufficient for the Model I.
I might not tip the whole thing backwards too much with that adaptation, but a slight forward tilt wouldn't seem to hurt anything.
If I regularly used the L1 in a slightly-too-low place, this looks to be a nifty solution.
Furthermore, the kit may included the wiring connection -- based on Google Translate, with just some re-formatting, I get:
Bose is known, the rod is 2.13m high. If the space below?
No problem with the adjustable clip of music electronics. Made in Switzerland.
Connection cable for additional speakers.
I added the bolding ...
Yeah, looking at it again, it is 'behind' and not to the side (as my first glance seemed to see).
Having your seemingly approval on it, Dan, is a pretty good endorsement.
The amount of height reduction on it is just perfect. Looks to be about 6". That would be good for a 6 and a half foot high ceiling. I couldn't think of a stage ceiling being any shorter than that.
As far as a tendency to fall backward goes, that would be my only concern (or put strain on the base connector area).
I have found tilting the towers forward even a little bit affects the dispersion greatly.
But maybe tilting forward the upper radiator only just a tad (for balance) wouldn't be so bad since it's only half of the dispersion.
I did the same translation in Google too. But still could not locate this manufacturer.
If you can find this Switzerland based company, that would be nice because I think many users would benefit from a device like this.
They probably would need a US distributor because of the language barrier.
Thanks for this info. I will continue to look for it too.
And a big Thanks, ST, for originally finding this product.
I wouldn't be concerned about it falling UNLESS you have the base already tipped back; there is a lot of stability in the design of the L1 base.
I also would not be concerned about the "twist" (lever) strain induced by the offset top piece, since it is close to the original line -- and it'd not be any different - in terms of "strain" than tipping the full column back ... which is perfectly acceptable.
The original "Classic" design of the connection socket is sturdy enough that the inventor (Cliff) once picked the whole thing up by the column to move it. The current designs, ALTHOUGH WITHOUT THE 'LOCKING' of the Classic, are similarly sturdy to resist damage from tipping (even if you can't pick them up because they don't lock-into the base).
Sounds like the base is pretty strong.
I shot an inquiry to Music Electronics, the German distributor, but have not gotten a reply yet. Maybe I'll try translating it to German 1st and then resend it.
This looks great!
Yeah it looks like it is sitting in the same space where you put the bracket for the T1... or that sexy guitar hanger thing
L1 MII 2 B1's T1
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I'm exchanging emails with the Manufacturer of this device now. There is a language barrier. But thanks to Google Translate we're communicating.
He has a little shop in Switzerland. He may not be shipping world wide, just locally. I think he's going send a larger diagram to me so that we can try to duplicate it. If this happens, I'll send any info to the group if I can.
This isn't what you asked for, BUT, I started using two Bose Compacts. Very often I use only one extension on each side instead of two, particularly when the ceiling is low or the bandstand is raised.
Don't know if you need more volume than the Compacts put out, but they have worked great for me on everything up to a couple hundred people.
In fact they worked so well that I sold the two original L1s I had.
Actually, as I play the short stages more and more, I'm starting to get used to making a few adjustments that seem to 'normalize' the situation.
This refers to using only the bottom radiator without the upper one. Which works ok without any damage...it just sounds a little different, that's all.
One of the things I do now is take my rolling carts, that I use to carry the equipment from van to the stage area, I have two of them and two L1/B1's...and put them on the stage behind me. Then place my two half stacks on top of them to bring the bottom only radiators up to a higher height. The carts are about 2 feet high. Now my ears hear them at appx the right spot as opposed to belly button level. This, plus putting a dummy plug into the output jacks, works better than just on the floor. I keep the subs together and on the floor as always.
This has given me a better sound...at least to my ears anyway for the shorter stages.
My carts are open top boxes 4' x 2' with 6.5" casters. The base wings are wider and work great right on top without having the flip the carts upside down or anything. That adds the 6.5" caster height.
Since going Bose I've been so happy to hear exactly what the crowd hears by placing the speakers behind me (and not getting mic feedback!!). Raising the those shortened radiators seems to help a lot on short stages.
If you don't have carts like me, try some plastic milk crates. You'd probably need two for each base. Use the ones that are about 18" x 12". But anything big enough and study should work.
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