Thanks for all the tips. We have played through them two times now and the sound is getting to where we like it. My partner playe in a full band and is selling his old PA and going to just use this because it is so easly to load and unload as well as having a good sound.
I am now running both guitars through the Baggs para and it works better than using the K and K preamp.
We are playing regularly at a venue that I could use some suggestions for. Imagine two rectangles that share a common upper left corner, one within the other. The larger is 20x100 and the smaller 12x12. The smaller one is the stage and the larger one the club. The door is on the opposite narrow side. Good acoustics but hard to get the sound to reach all the way to the front, esp the National slide played through a mic.
We play there again tomorrow. Are there any suggestions for a set up other than the two units behind us? I have tinkered with the National and use preset 42 ( still have not up dated, will do tomorrow since I feel like a slacker now ) and just can only get so much punch before it feeds back. Moved the mic, the guitar, the PAS, angled it about 15 degrees each way off center, nothing much helps. Is there a different placemant for the PAS units?
Thanks for all your help.

Hi Kingbee,

Is this what you meant by
Imagine two rectangles that share a common upper left corner, one within the other. The larger is 20x100 and the smaller 12x12. The smaller one is the stage and the larger one the club. The door is on the opposite narrow side.

Some ideas:

• Get a pickup for the National.
  You wrote way back "... a National Single Cone tuned to open D played through a Shure SM 86 ..."
  There's only so much you can do with mic'd instrument as far as gain-before-feedback. In this narrow space you are going to get reflections from the walls and that's going to be tough to manage.
  I looked up the Shure SM86 and that is a "unidirectional (cardioid) condenser vocal microphone". I'm sure you use that because you like the sound, but if you don't want to use a pickup you might want to look at a hyper-cardioid mic instead. An Audix OM 5 is often mentioned here in the forums.
  
  
• You could move the Systems parallel with you on the stage so that you and your partner are nestled between them (or just slightly in-front. This might be a little cramped. You are going to get fewer reflections (into the microphones) off the side walls this way.
  
  
• You could put the Systems in front of you on either side of the stage. It won't sound the same on the stage, but you should be able to get more overall gain-before-feedback. The problem will be that you won't really know how loud you are (and you will have to be louder than you are now so you can hear yourselves).
  
  
• You could bring your old PA and mic the L1s, then set up a couple of speakers 70 feet towards the far end facing the 'front'. You'd probably want about a 70 - 75 millisecond delay so things don't sound weird back there.
  

That's all that comes to mind right now, but of all those suggestions, I'd go for a pickup in the National first.

Thank you, yes that is the basic layout. Pick ups in Nationals are "dicey" so I am going to try the other stuff first.
I am not able to get nearly as much volume as in other venues so it must be the narrow walls. Thanks for the insight.
Patrick

Hi Patrick,

A friend of mine John Standefer uses the K and K systems and another, Bob Bennett uses an older Baggs system. I had the pleasure of setting up two systems for them to use for a concert in Coos Bay, OR earlier this summer. Also, Coos Bay is the home to K and K, so I got to spend a couple of hours with the owner as well showing him the system and listening to his tri system that you have.

For the k an k, I ended up going flat, John adjusted his sound and was not satisfied until I ran him through the tube DI I use for my bass and it sounded fantastic. All his drop tunings sounded huge.

I used preset 41 for Bob's guitar with good results.

Check out Bob's review of that concert on his site. By the way he bought a system last week.

Dan

Well things are going pretty well. Had some trouble last week but I have a new approach.
I bought a akg c 1000 mic. Are there presets for this mic anyone could suggest? I have no idea what might be best and just got it today so I am anzious to try it out.
Thanks for any suggestions.
Patric`k

Kingbee,
For the AKG C1000 mic I would suggest preset #23 with Version 1 of the presets and #42 with version 2 of the upgraded presets. both of these are for condenser mics on a guitar and would have similar performance to the C1000. If you need presets 2.0 please give us a call at 877-335-2673. Thanks,

Service and help here is awesome!

I am still having trouble with the National. Maybe its just the idea of mic'ing an acoustic. For a while it seemed OK but I keep running into feedback issues. We have not tried setting it up beside us because I use three guitars and there would be no room on the stage.
I tried the AKG C 1000 Mic and honestly I don't get more volume, maybe better tone but still the same feedback problems.
I have tried tinkering with the master volume/handset master and channel master but get to about the same level before feedback. My master volure is on 9.5/10 to get the hint of red that is per the instructions. Oldgum made comments that this seems unusual. Do you Bose guys agree? ( Nationa thru an SM 86 into preset v1 #03 )
So what can I do?
Is it worth the hassle to use a mixer? I now run both acoustics through the Baggs PADI into channel three. I am now using an OLD Shure SM58 for my vocals and like it a lot. The Shure 86 that I mic my National with is fine but I am always fighting the feedback to get volume. Is that just going to be a fact of life in my setup?
So far I have only played with the unit in two different clubs and it is the long narrow club that gives me fits? but we play there every week so I have to make it work. Is it time to just quit griping and to get along, accepting the limits of the system?
It seems like there are some good acoustic players who use only mics and do great but for me on this system, I would get absolutley no volume if I tried that. I expiremnted with the AKG and no picup on my Collings and there was very little output. How do they do it?
Sorry I am just frustrated about getting this to work right. Seems like I am spending a lot of time on sound and less time on music.
Thanks

Kingbee,

I am going to go out on a limb here, and we might get some differing opinions, but give my advice a shot anyway.

The Bose recommended method of gain staging will not necessarily give the best results when trying to mic a guitar, dobro, or probably any other acoustic stringed instrument. There are simply too many variables when compared to a close miced vocal for instance.

Of course I don't know exactly how close the National is to the mic or how hard you are playing or even the mic position in relation to the resonator, but I suspect if you are getting red, any at all, with the dobro, the channel / mic is simply set too sensitive, it will always feed back. (at 9.5 or 10)

Start with the trim all the way down. While you play the dobro at performance level, have a friend bring up the PS1 trim to the point that you get just a "good solid green", then bring up the controls on the remote to see what kind of volume you can get. I think this will work better, but still unsure if it will produce sufficient volume.

The fact that you are stating that the trim level is up to a 9.5 or 10 of a possible 12 suggests to me that you might be playing lightly or your instrument is not very loud.

Most of the acoustic instruments you see in the hands of pros, or touring Bluegrass Bands that are playing thru mics, are very loud instruments to begin with, and the players have spent many years learning how to get the most from the instrument utilizing setup and playing technique.

Remember you need to mute or turn down the dobro channel when it is not in use.

Are you playing the National in the guitar position? or face up as a dobro? It should be a slight advantage if you are playing as a dobro and the mic is pointing down at a fairly steep angle.

Resonator guitars can get pretty loud by themselves but it may always be difficult to play to the same level as is possible with instruments with pickups. I do think, however, that unless your group is playing extremely loud you can work this out. It may take a bit of tinkering to get the best balance of input trim / mic sensitivity vs natural instrument volume vs PAS output volume.

It is not time to give up yet, I think there is more to be had within the limits of the system.

It is time to bite the bullet, and do the preset upgrade. When you do you will have several more choices and I feel confident there are a couple that will give better response than you are now getting. If you are unsure how to download, call Bose and they will send you a kit with everything you need but a DVD player and a patch cord.

Good Luck, and keep us posted on your progress.

Oldghm

Thanks for the suggestions. I will do both.
As for the questions, I play as a guitar and pretty damn hard. The idea of this part of the show is to be hard and "dirty", raucous is a term we use. I am only one of a duo. I use a flatpick and a glass slide and hit it pretty hard. As for the setting, I assumed that the scale went to 10. I am just a hair off full on to get red on the trim channel. I will try your suggestions gladly.
Thanks again and to all:
SORRY about the grumpy post.
Patrick

Kingbee,

Sometimes the little things are over looked, so just as a reminder; are you using phantom power, or a battery with the AKG??

I tried my AKG 1000 with a 000 Martin and got decent volume with the trim at about 4. It would have worked for a listening audience but would have been marginal for a loud crowd. I doubt that my 000 is as loud as your National.

Oldghm

Remember the C1000S comes with an adapter to change it to hyper-cardoid which may help reduce some feedback problems. It changes the tone slightly.

It's very tough to get loud with a mic but it can be done to some extent. Trouble is, that extent is hard to qualify when under the gun to perform a gig.

Kingbee,

In anticipation of a coffee house listening room type of gig, I have been messing around with some different guitars and mics, and stumbled upon something you, and all other AKG C1000 users, might find interesting.

The AKG C1000 "Presence Boost Adapter" designed to make the spoken voice more inteligible, with a 5 or 6 db boost beween 5k and 9k or so, does something very cool for the acoustic guitar.

Utilizing preset 42, with PS1 and remote set to provide good tone and volume, mic about 7 feet in front of L1 and able to walk away without feedback, with the hyper-cardioid adapter in place, I turned off the mic and changed to the presence boost adapter.

When I turned it back on feedback was the first thing that happened, but subsided when I placed my body between the mic and L1. I suppose this should be anticipated with a 6 db boost above 5k!

Then I started playing. Hmmmmm, much clearer, no bottom end mud, and louder. I was able to cut the volume and move in very close (1 to 2 inches) to the mic (right in front of the soundhole) without any "boominess" that we normally associate with that style of micing.

AKG recommends a distance of 6 to 8 inches for micing an acoustic guitar, to be able to move in 4 or 5 inches closer than that, without boominess, is a big help in the gain before feedback department.

With the volume cut I was able to once again walk away from the mic without immediate feedback.

I tried four different acoustics, Martin D-18GE, Martin SPOM-16, Martin D-15, and a Collings D-1A, all were represented superbly with this setup.

I didn't try a resonator guitar but I think it might be effective, especially if you can work very close to the mic.

I will experiment more, for example when I moved closer to the mic, I cut the volume. It is possible that if I cut the gain instead (get it below 4) I can get the same volume back with even less chance of feedback.

YMMV

Oldghm

quote:

Originally posted by Oldghm:

I tried four different acoustics, Martin D-18GE, Martin SPOM-16, Martin D-15, and a Collings D-1A, all were represented superbly with this setup.

Gee. If you converted those to cash, you could buy a pretty good car. Nice instrument list, and I don't even know anything about guitars!

Very interesting post. All my experience with micing guitars for PA is pretty old (pick-ups are ubiquitous now), and probably wouldn't mean much with the PAS anyway. I'll definitely put the C 1000 on the list for testing.

Mike

Life is a series of choices. I am very happy driving a 15 year old Nissan Pathfinder.