I have had my L1 M1 for over 2 years and played many different venues inside and outside and the only adjustment I have ever made is VOLUME. I played a room on Sunday, 4,000 sq. ft. wide open and all wood walls and cathedral ceiling. When I started my sound check I was freaked out when the bass and drum machine were nearly non existant. The guitar and vocals were good. I had to turn the master volume on the remote to past 3 o'clock to be heard in the back of the room with the place near empty and it was worse when the crowd arrived. Feedback was terrible and I had to move the tower toward the front of me and away. I was unable to hear what was comimg out. I had to increase the volume of the bass and electric drummer channels by 50% to mix with the vocals and guitar. I have all normal settings marked on the power stand and the remote and have never had to make an adjustment until now. I'm using two B1's. I tried different locations for the B1's and the tower with not acceptable results for me to hear. Everyone said the system sounded great but without being able to hear myself very well, was very uncomfortable to say the least. I have been invited back once a month for several months but I can't handle not being able to hear what I'm doing. I checked all the connections to make sure they were plugged in correctly and they were. I have all connections color coded to eliminate problems. I can't figure out why the bass and drums were so weak. I have never had feedback like this but I attributed it to the increase in volume but I needed the volume to be heard. I checked the B1's to make sure they were working and they were. Anyone else had a similar problem??? I don't want to go back to monitors.

Hi larry-b,

Sorry to hear about that uncomfortable gig.

quote:

Originally posted by larry-b:
I have had my L1 M1 for over 2 years and played many different venues inside and outside and the only adjustment I have ever made is VOLUME. I played a room on Sunday, 4,000 sq. ft. wide open and all wood walls and cathedral ceiling. When I started my sound check I was freaked out when the bass and drum machine were nearly non existant.

If the bass just disappears in a room then I would move the B1s a few feet in any direction and see if that helps. Bass in a room can be position dependent and sometimes a few feet can make a difference.

I read below that you tried this, so the next thing I would do is getting a PackLite® Extended Bass Package (PackLite® amp + two B1 Bass Modules)

quote:

The guitar and vocals were good. I had to turn the master volume on the remote to past 3 o'clock to be heard in the back of the room with the place near empty and it was worse when the crowd arrived.

A couple of thoughts -
- what are the dimensions of the room?
-- specifically - how far away is the back wall?

Are you using effects on the vocals? If you are using reverb, I would turn that off because it can make feedback issues worse.

quote:

Feedback was terrible and I had to move the tower toward the front of me and away. I was unable to hear what was coming out. I had to increase the volume of the bass and electric drummer channels by 50% to mix with the vocals and guitar.


I have all normal settings marked on the power stand and the remote and have never had to make an adjustment until now.

I'm using two B1's. I tried different locations for the B1's and the tower with not acceptable results for me to hear. Everyone said the system sounded great but without being able to hear myself very well, was very uncomfortable to say the least.

I have been invited back once a month for several months but I can't handle not being able to hear what I'm doing. I checked all the connections to make sure they were plugged in correctly and they were. I have all connections color coded to eliminate problems. I can't figure out why the bass and drums were so weak. I have never had feedback like this but I attributed it to the increase in volume but I needed the volume to be heard. I checked the B1's to make sure they were working and they were. Anyone else had a similar problem??? I don't want to go back to monitors.

A little more information would help.
Please tell us more about your music:

• What kind(s) of music you play?
  
• Where you do it (size, type of venue)?
  
• Who is there (audience) - how many, what are they doing while you are performing?
  
• Do you have a web site?
  
• If no web site, could you post a picture of your ensemble?
  

Thank you.

+1 on the extended Bass package, that will make a big difference.

Thanks for the replies. To answer the questions;
I play solo, play a pedal bass, acoustic guitar with sound hole pickup and use an electronic rhythm machine and play mostly country and some lite rock and Pop. I use an EV nd 767 mic with a "minute" amount of "plate" effects on the vocals. The majority of places I play are outside or small rooms 1,000 sq. ft or less usually bars or restaurants with many tables and chairs. Most of the people are sitting at tables talking or standing at the bar, usually between 30 and 75 people. The venue in question is about 4,000 sq. ft. and it is about 80 feet to the back wall. There were about 80 people there and a few were dancing and the others were sitting at tables. The problem was noticed before most of the people arrived. I was doing a sound check when I was told they could not hear the bass and drums at the bar about 40 ft. away. I have a website larrybmusic.net but no picture that shows my set-up. I just thought it was strange for the bass and drums to be low in volume when I have not had that problem playing outdoors, all I do from indoors to out is turn up the volume but I have never had to turn the volume past 1 o'clock until this room and I had to turn the remote master to past 3 o'clock. The channel volumes on the stand are at about 2 o'clock. Channels 1 and 2 (vocals and guitar) are set up with the gainstaging procedure and at about 1 o'clock. I think the feedback was due to the EV mic because it is more sensitive than my old SM 58 and I agree the Plate effects attributed to the feedback problem. All said and done, the sound out front was good and I had many compliments from new and previous listeners but I could hardly hear what I was doing. I am not at all unhappy with the L1 but without being able to hear what is coming out I flash back to the old conventional sysatems before the L1 and I crenge at the thought and do not want to go back to monitors.

Hi Larry,

Thanks for the link to your website. Nice clean sound! Oh and I just loved this.



-= click the picture to see it in context at Larry's web site=-

Getting back to this venue — If the bass and drums cannot be heard at the bar 40 feet away and you are using two B1s, I think that there is something going on with the acoustics of the room.

I would go back there when it's quiet and do some more testing, moving the B1s around a few feet in every direction.

If you find a spot that works better than others, you could look at getting a longer B1 cable so you can put the B1s where they work best and still have your L1® where you like it.

See: Longer cables for B1s.


Also - that EV microphone should be fine, but you may need to look at how you have it aimed on the stage, and try to stay really close to it (close microphone technique).

Here some notes about Microphone Feedback in the wiki.

ST, thanks for the help.
The truck has been my daily driver for the past 6 or 7 years. It has A/C, power steering, power brakes, power windows, a digital dash cluster and a CD player(with a larry b CD playing all the time). It also has a Chevy 350, 375 hp, auto trans with a .411 semi posi rear gear and does 13 seconds in the quarter mile. I recently parked it my garage to do some repairs but will be back on the road soon.
I will try relocating the B1's. I always "eat the mic" and have rarely had feedback problems before. I will try the mic without the effects. I will also try the SM 58 to compare. I have committed to return to the same venue for several future gigs and must get this problem corrected.
Thanks for the help
Larry

One additional thought re: B1's.

Is it a hollow wooden stage? If so, might try folding a blanket or two under the B1's to isolate them from the stage. There are commercial pads noted elsewhere on this Forum for isolation, but the blankets can do to see if that is one cause of the weak bass sound.

I'd get a longer B1 cable in any case (to use between the L1 and the first B1) ... it'll make setup experimenting so much easier in any venue.

Yes the stage is 3 feet high, 20 feet wide, in a corner, solid wood and has a vinyl floor. I did not like the floor when I saw it but didn't think about it killing the Bass. I'll try the padding.
Thanks

Also, to ensure that your rig is working the way it always has, I would set up in a familiar (good) environment for a sanity check. Everything sound normal? If yes, proceed as advised to see if you can figure out what to do about the bad room. If no, stop and get back to normal.

Make sense?

Ken

If you can't hear, but your audience can, you might get some used IEMs just for those shows...

?

Hey Ken
I am now set up in my normal space at home and everything is "normal". The Bass and Drums were BOOMING. I cut back the volume on those two channels and all is "GREAT" again. The room in question has all wood walls, wood floors with vinyl covering and wood ceilings and the stage floor is wood with vinyl covering and very "LIVE". When I first visited the place I thought I may have Booming echoing Bass problems rather than loss of Bass and there was some reflecting sound but tolerable. This problem was totally unexpected and I was stressed to the MAX. I have played many places over the past 30 years but this one really surprised me. The feedback was terrible and when I had to turn the tower away from me to relieve the feedback and I could not hear the system, that really upset me. I am so acoustomed to hearing the L1 from the front I was at a loss. I think this room may take a while to get a handle on so I have arranged to arrive "REALLY" early next time and have plenty of time to experiment. I understand this problem in no way reflects badly on the L1 and is no more than an isolated room related incident. I appreciate all the help and will post results after the next performance.

I got nothing but compliments from the audience and was hired for several consecutive performances from this bad experience. The L1 system sounded great out front after direction from people familiar with my normal sound The bad experience was totally on my part with not being able to hear. I have a few styles of in ear monitors and floor monitors but with an L1 model I and standard remote, I do not have a jack to connect all channels to a monitor. I do have a mixer that I may have to use that I could plug a monitor into. I love the sound coming from the L1 and have improved greatly from that crystal clear sound I really don't want to go backwards but I will do what is necessaary to hear what I am doing.

Try setting the B1s against the wall behind you and facing out of the corner, parallel with the wall.

O..

Oldghm;
I will try that with the B1's. I'm writing down all the suggestions so I don't forget.
Thanks

Hey, larry-b ... when you described the construction of the room and the stage, I'm actually not too surprised that the bass seems lacking compared to the rest of the sound.

Wood construction (particularly finished wood) generally has an odd property compared to other materials in that it tends to reflect higher frequencies and absorb lower frequencies -- just the opposite of most other materials.

That's why it is often good to have wood walls or panels in a room with other types of walls ... it helps balance the "response" of the room -- but in an all wood room ... you have to find a "sweet spot" for place the bass speakers.

You need that one longer B1 cord!

Dan, thanks for the tip. That is good to know and will help when I experiment next time. I think you are correct about the longer B1 cable and will have one when I go back.
Thanks
Larry B

I played that same place yesterday. I tried the suggested padding under the B1's and the lack of bass and drums problem was solved (I used 2 layers of carpet squares). As to the feedback, for the first time in 30 years, I turned off the reverb and the audiance said they could hear as if the reverb was still there (live room). I also relocated the l1 farther in back of me and farther to the side, and I could hear the sound. Though I could not hear the natural reverb, my normal group of people said the sound was exellent. As always, good advice from you guys. I tried to post a pic of the stage area but the file size was too large.
Thanks
Larry B

Hi larry-b.,

I'd really like to see that picture. Here's a note that should help.

Pictures - shrinking to fit

or

Send me a private message with your email address and we'll figure out a way to make this happen.

Thanks ST. I'll try that.

Hi larry-b,


Thanks for posting the picture.

That looks great!

In your lead post you wrote:

quote:

Originally posted by larry-b:
... I played a room on Sunday, 4,000 sq. ft. wide open and all wood walls and cathedral ceiling...

This puts it all in perspective.

Thanks!